Redskins now in the West coast O

[welch]

Someone needs to start a thread when the season starts and we've seen the offense where we come up with a new name for it. I'm an East Coast guy and I can't stand the West Coast name. Makes my skin crawl!

- the offense was invented by Paul Brown, owner, GM, coach, and boss of the Cleveland Browns.

- a variation was run by Otto Graham, Brown's QB, when he coached the Redskins (Toot's variation dropped the running game as too boring, though)

...so we can call it the Paul Brown offense.

[yupchagee]

Someone needs to start a thread when the season starts and we've seen the offense where we come up with a new name for it. I'm an East Coast guy and I can't stand the West Coast name. Makes my skin crawl!

- the offense was invented by Paul Brown, owner, GM, coach, and boss of the Cleveland Browns.

- a variation was run by Otto Graham, Brown's QB, when he coached the Redskins (Toot's variation dropped the running game as too boring, though)

...so we can call it the Paul Brown offense.

Thanks for the history lesson

[JansenFan]

Someone needs to start a thread when the season starts and we've seen the offense where we come up with a new name for it. I'm an East Coast guy and I can't stand the West Coast name. Makes my skin crawl!

- the offense was invented by Paul Brown, owner, GM, coach, and boss of the Cleveland Browns.

- a variation was run by Otto Graham, Brown's QB, when he coached the Redskins (Toot's variation dropped the running game as too boring, though)

...so we can call it the Paul Brown offense.

Don't tell the Walsh fanatics that. I've seen some very interesting debates about who the better coach was, Walsh vs Gibbs, and all the Walsh supporters argued that Gibbs adapted the Air Coryell offense while Walsh created his own, and my buddy, who provided me with a lot of the in-depth technical Gibbs and Buges information I posted in Football 101 in 2004 pointed out this very fact. The response was very informative:

"Nuh-uh. That is a lie. Walsh is a genious and he made it up himself with no help from anyone."

[welch]

Don't tell the Walsh fanatics that.

Of course, it "informs" everything when Walsh tells people he is a genius, and Gibbs insists, year after year, that he's just a hard-working and lucky guy who owes every win to others!

Incidentally, I picked up the Paul Brown information from a discussion at a Washington Redskins fan site called The Hogs Net. It's probably buried in the old threads at Football 101.

[fleetus]

This thread has delved into a lot of "gray areas". Probably impossible to put all the debates to rest, but here is my take:

1st gray area: West Coast offense was derived originally from Air Coryell OR from Walsh (49ers) - like everything in coaching, no one INVENTS anything from scratch. Walsh worked under Paul Brown (Bengals) and started developing his system while there (1968-75). But he admitted that a huge influence was Sid Gilman when they worked together for the Oakland Raiders. Air Coryell was derived originally from Sid Gilman's offense also! (with the AFL Chargers in the 60's, prior to when Walsh was OC for the Bengals). There were also semantic conflicts because the AFL Chargers were the first offense dubbed "WEST COAST OFFENSE". Walsh went on to coach the 49ers and the term was rejuvenated. So I think you could say that Gilman was the real father of the WCO style but Walsh perfected it, won Super Bowls with it and made it his own.

2nd gray area - West Coast Offense WR's must be big and strong - well, not exactly. It helps them last 16 games if they can absorb more hits from LB's and safeties over the middle but it's not like Moss and ARE have exclusively run fly patterns for the past two seasons. Any WR that wants to get paid what Moss and ARE get paid needs to run over the middle and make tough catches. If they can't then what are they doing here anyway? Hit the road. I think we need a big WR to have a bigger red zone target for Campbell but not because it takes a big WR to catch passes in the WCO. Especially with the limited contact DB's can make on a WR any more, small agile WR's should be able to play the WCO.

3rd gray area - Campbell played west coast offense at Auburn and so will be proficient at it OR Campbell's talents are not suited to NFL west coast offense - The offense at Auburn in 2004 was incorporated by OC Al Borges. Borges credits Bill Walsh as his biggest influence. However, unlike Walsh, Borges learned to incorporate a 50-50 balance between the run and pass. He also learned to use play action. He also adapted the offense for his two RB's Cadillac and Brown so they could both be on the field at the same time (maybe what Zorn has in mind for Portis/Betts?) lining one RB up in the slot, or both in the Pro set backfield or shifting on or both of them to keep defenses confused.

Anyway, I remember Gibbs saying that one of the big things he loved about Jason Campbell was that Auburn was running an offense eerily similar to his own system. So I think all this "west coast" vs. "air coryell" stuff is overplayed. Bottom line is, just about every NFL offense uses plays and terminology from both of those systems and then adapts them to what they need that particular year for their specific talents. With Zorn, we will probably see more short passes over the middle, a few more 3 step drops (although the west coast offense quit relying solely on the 3-step over a decade ago) and more passing on first down. I'll bet that Portis and Betts will still factor heavily running the ball and both will probably catch more passes.

We won't be running a Walsh WCO where we pass 70% of the time. Hell, I don't think Shaun Alexander could have led the league in rushing in that style offense. In 2005, The Seahwks led the NFL in offense. Alexander led the NFL with 1880 yards and 28 TD's. They also led the NFL in scoring (28 pts/game) and red zone off. (71.7%) and 24 - 80+ yard drives. Even though last year the Seahawks passed 3rd most attempts in the league, they had an ineffective running game. The 2005 Seahawks actually ran more times than they passed.

[yupchagee]

This thread has delved into a lot of "gray areas". Probably impossible to put all the debates to rest, but here is my take:

1st gray area: West Coast offense was derived originally from Air Coryell OR from Walsh (49ers) - like everything in coaching, no one INVENTS anything from scratch. Walsh worked under Paul Brown (Bengals) and started developing his system while there (1968-75). But he admitted that a huge influence was Sid Gilman when they worked together for the Oakland Raiders. Air Coryell was derived originally from Sid Gilman's offense also! (with the AFL Chargers in the 60's, prior to when Walsh was OC for the Bengals). There were also semantic conflicts because the AFL Chargers were the first offense dubbed "WEST COAST OFFENSE". Walsh went on to coach the 49ers and the term was rejuvenated. So I think you could say that Gilman was the real father of the WCO style but Walsh perfected it, won Super Bowls with it and made it his own.

2nd gray area - West Coast Offense WR's must be big and strong - well, not exactly. It helps them last 16 games if they can absorb more hits from LB's and safeties over the middle but it's not like Moss and ARE have exclusively run fly patterns for the past two seasons. Any WR that wants to get paid what Moss and ARE get paid needs to run over the middle and make tough catches. If they can't then what are they doing here anyway? Hit the road. I think we need a big WR to have a bigger red zone target for Campbell but not because it takes a big WR to catch passes in the WCO. Especially with the limited contact DB's can make on a WR any more, small agile WR's should be able to play the WCO.

3rd gray area - Campbell played west coast offense at Auburn and so will be proficient at it OR Campbell's talents are not suited to NFL west coast offense - The offense at Auburn in 2004 was incorporated by OC Al Borges. Borges credits Bill Walsh as his biggest influence. However, unlike Walsh, Borges learned to incorporate a 50-50 balance between the run and pass. He also learned to use play action. He also adapted the offense for his two RB's Cadillac and Brown so they could both be on the field at the same time (maybe what Zorn has in mind for Portis/Betts?) lining one RB up in the slot, or both in the Pro set backfield or shifting on or both of them to keep defenses confused.

Anyway, I remember Gibbs saying that one of the big things he loved about Jason Campbell was that Auburn was running an offense eerily similar to his own system. So I think all this "west coast" vs. "air coryell" stuff is overplayed. Bottom line is, just about every NFL offense uses plays and terminology from both of those systems and then adapts them to what they need that particular year for their specific talents. With Zorn, we will probably see more short passes over the middle, a few more 3 step drops (although the west coast offense quit relying solely on the 3-step over a decade ago) and more passing on first down. I'll bet that Portis and Betts will still factor heavily running the ball and both will probably catch more passes.

We won't be running a Walsh WCO where we pass 70% of the time. Hell, I don't think Shaun Alexander could have led the league in rushing in that style offense. In 2005, The Seahwks led the NFL in offense. Alexander led the NFL with 1880 yards and 28 TD's. They also led the NFL in scoring (28 pts/game) and red zone off. (71.7%) and 24 - 80+ yard drives. Even though last year the Seahawks passed 3rd most attempts in the league, they had an ineffective running game. The 2005 Seahawks actually ran more times than they passed.

Good analysis. Thanks.

[welch]

Yes, a good analysis of Walsh and the WCO. However, it seems to me that fans have mostly forgotten how important Paul Brown was. Without digging back for the previous THN discussion of WCO, which included a drawing of a tree to show Brown's "coaching tree", here are a few tid-bits from Wiki.

In my opinion, most of modern NFL coaching techniques derive from Brown. He was probably about ten years ahead of the NFL when his All-America Footbal Conference Cleveland Browns (long withg the Colts and 49ers) joined the NFL.

Paul Eugene Brown (September 7, 1908 - August 5, 1991) was a coach in American football and a major figure in the development of the National Football League. A seminal figure in football history, Brown is considered the "father of the modern offense," with many claiming that he ranks as one of if not the greatest of football coaches in history. Such claims are backed by significant evidence: Brown dominated as a gridiron general on every major level -- high school, college, and professional.

Brown began as a high school coach in Severna, Maryland (!), quickly moving back to Massillon, Ohio.

Brown had achieved this success by implementing a system at Massillon based on techniques developed by Dr. John B. "Jock" Sutherland, head coach at the University of Pittsburgh. Sutherland had played professional football for the pioneer Massillon Tigers club when Brown was a boy and had gone on to success as a coach. Brown planned every phase of his program, detailing practice schedules, assigning assistant coaches (which he dubbed "position coaches") specific duties, and installing his entire system in Massillon's junior high schools so that players would already know his system when they reached high school.

Note that. In high school, no less, at a time when champions like the Redskins and Bears were still wrapped up in the raccoon-coat style of 1920's college football.

While the AAFC lasted only four seasons, the Browns served as the gold standard for the league, winning all four championships and losing only four games during the league's four-year existence.

Brown put together the most extensive player recruitment network that had ever been seen in pro football at the time. The great majority of the early Browns teams came from Massillon, Ohio State and Great Lakes. One key move came when he tapped Otto Graham, a single-wing tailback during his days at Northwestern University, as his quarterback, providing the team with a signal caller who would lead the team to the league title game in each of his 10 seasons. In addition, Brown ignored the gentlemen's agreement that barred African-American players from the league, adding future Pro Football Hall of Famers Marion Motley and Bill Willis.

Following the merger between the NFL and AAFC, the Browns, along with the San Francisco 49ers and the first Baltimore Colts franchise, moved to the NFL in 1950. Critics had predicted that the overall weakness of the AAFC would expose the Browns. However, in their very first official NFL game, the Browns dismantled the two-time defending champion Philadelphia Eagles 35-10, putting up 487 yards of total offense, 346 of them in the air. They won the NFL Championship in their first year, defeating the Rams in the title game on December 24 on a last-minute field goal by Lou Groza. The Browns went on to appear in the next five title games, winning back-to-back titles in 1954 and 1955.

Brown was a great innovator during his time in Cleveland. He was the first to use intelligence tests to judge players, establish a game film library, instruct players in a classroom setting, use a radio transmitter to communicate with players on the field, and install face masks on helmets. Another innovation was the use of "messenger guards" to relay plays from the sidelines after the radio proved problematic due to the technology then available. The offense directed by Graham was the predecessor of the West Coast offense made famous by Bill Walsh, a protégé of Brown.

He was also a person known for his stubborn approach to criticism. In 1950, Eagles head coach Greasy Neale dismissed the Browns' shredding of his Eagles' vaunted defense in the season opener by saying, "All they do is pass the ball." In the team's subsequent meeting a few months later, the Browns set an NFL record that still stands by attempting no passes in a 13-7 win over the Eagles.

After being shoved out of the NFL by Browns owner Art Modell, Brown made a success of the Bengals.

Coaching family tree

The following coaches either coached under or played for Paul Brown and were influenced at least to some degree by him and his football knowledge and offensive system:

* Blanton Collier (coach)
* Weeb Ewbank (coach under Paul Brown)
* Abe Gibron (player)
* Sid Gillman (coach)
* Otto Graham (player)
* Bill "Tiger" Johnson (coach)
* Chuck Noll (player)
* Ara Parseghian (player)
* Don Shula (player for Paul Brown)
* Bill Walsh (coach)
* Sam Wyche (player and head coach under team President Paul Brown)

Connection to the Redskins?

- Brown's Browns consistently mashed the Redskins in the '50s

- In the late 50s, when George Preston Marshall refused to allow black players on the Skins, Post great Shirley Povich used one Browns game to note: "While Marshall's Redskins remain firmly segregated, Jim Brown and Bobby Mitchell integrated the Redskins endzone for five touchdowns yesterday.."

- Otto Graham instituted the Paul Brown passing game as Redskins head coach in the '60s. That team had no running game, not much defense, but few teams have ever had a passing game as good.

[welch]

For most on the WCO, Brown, "Toot", Walsh, Coryell, Gibbs, see Football 101:

http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10973

Where else but THN?

[fleetus]

"I think the big money is over," Cerrato said. "So now the market will come back and you can get some guys for minimum salary."

Cerrato added the team is still considering trade opportunities, while also preparing for the NFL Draft on April 26-27.

Since news is slow right now, thought I would post this tiny tidbit. Cerrato acknowledging trade possibilities exist. ESPN had that rumor a couple weeks ago about a DeAngelo Hall trade and mentioned the Skins and Giants as suitors. Not sure what other trades might be on the table.

Personally, this approach to free agency may be the single most impressive thing I have ever seen Cerrato/Snyder do. Maybe they have seen the light?

[CanesSkins26]

Personally, this approach to free agency may be the single most impressive thing I have ever seen Cerrato/Snyder do. Maybe they have seen the light?

So far they've done a real good job. Hopefully they don't start trading draft picks. We need as many of those as we can get.

[PulpExposure]

Great read, Welch. I think the best part if it was:

He was also a person known for his stubborn approach to criticism. In 1950, Eagles head coach Greasy Neale dismissed the Browns' shredding of his Eagles' vaunted defense in the season opener by saying, "All they do is pass the ball." In the team's subsequent meeting a few months later, the Browns set an NFL record that still stands by attempting no passes in a 13-7 win over the Eagles.

[fleetus]

I would like a game like that. Portis left, Betts right, Sellers up the middle. Sellers up the middle again! 4 WR set, draw to Portis. Sellers up the middle, was it a two yard gain or three yards? I don't know, let's wait for the dust to settle. Three and a half yards, woohoo!

That would be awesome!

[Bishop Hammer]

I would like a game like that. Portis left, Betts right, Sellers up the middle. Sellers up the middle again! 4 WR set, draw to Portis. Sellers up the middle, was it a two yard gain or three yards? I don't know, let's wait for the dust to settle. Three and a half yards, woohoo!

That would be awesome!

Whooaaaa! Were you Steve Spurious' Offensive Coordinator?

[SkinsFreak]

Portis Predicts a More Wide Open Offense
By Gary Fitzgerald
Redskins.com
March 17, 2008

Clinton Portis has had plenty of personas. Now add "Tasmanian Devil" to the mix.

Portis is expected to have a leading role in the Redskins' new West Coast offense installed by Jim Zorn.

He could be Zorn's version of Shaun Alexander, who has excelled most of this decade in Seattle where Zorn was an assistant coach. Alexander rushed for 1,000-plus yards every season from 2001-05, including a career-high 1,880 yards and 27 touchdowns in 2005.

On the first day of the Redskins' off-season workouts, Portis arrived at Redskins Park on Monday optimistic about the new offense.

"I'll be the Tasmanian Devil," he said. "If Shaun Alexander did great in this system, I'm sure I'll be all right."

Portis excelled in the West Coast offense with the Denver Broncos from 2002-03, rushing for 3,099 yards in two seasons.

With the Redskins since 2004, Portis has proven he can be a workhorse back, rushing for 4,616 yards the last four years.

Last year, he rushed for 1,262 yards and 11 touchdowns on 325 carries. He also caught a career-high 47 passes for 389 yards.

Under Zorn, the Redskins' offense will be "more like a spread, Denver system, with pretty much the same play-calling, the same strategies and hot routes [as in Denver]," Portis said.

"I think you're going to see a lot of players go wild [in terms of] stats this year," he added. "I think there will be more opportunities to open it up and spread it out. We'll be exploiting matchups."

Running backs in the West Coast offense typically are multi-purpose backs, similar to Alexander and Philadelphia Eagles' Brian Westbrook. They play a more active role in the passing game, both as a receiver and a blocker.

Portis should be an ideal fit for that role.

Zorn has already commented how much he admires how Portis handles himself as a blocker. He oftentimes levels punishing blocks to blitzing linebackers and safeties at the line of scrimmage.

Portis said he is committed to off-season workouts after six years of hard hits and pounding in the NFL.

He hopes his presence on the first day of the off-season workout program helps set a tone.

"I'm getting older, wiser," he said. "I'm trying to work on team unity. A lot of the guys are here. I'm sure over the next week, everybody will be around. It's an early jump."

Portis also commented for the first time on Joe Gibbs's retirement as head coach and team president of the Redskins.

"It came as a shock to all of us," he said. "Obviously everyone in the locker room would have loved to have Coach Gibbs back. I'm sure everybody around here learned something from Coach Gibbs.

"Maybe we didn't do the things that he set out to accomplish, but at the same time, people became men under Coach Gibbs--and that will last a lifetime."

I think Portis is excited about this new offense. He definitely thrived in the WCO in Denver. I actually can't wait to see Portis work his magic in this offense. I know some were hesitant about the WCO coming to DC, but I think it will be a pleasant change. With two good backs and two former RB coaches, Smith and Sherman, I think Zorn's version of the WCO will feature a solid running attack, as well as opening up the passing game.

[Assasin atm]

I agree the west coast is a better offense for clinton than in previous years but the biggest need for this offense to be succesful is a big target. SM and ARE are deep threats and can run some out patterns short and some quick hitches but when both get the ball on a drag (slant) or an inside route they catch and avoid contact resulting in minimal gain. Which is not a bad thing cuz most small recievers do that. Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

[PulpExposure]

Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

Hi, my name is Chris ey. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?

[CanesSkins26]

Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

Hi, my name is Chris ey. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?

One target isn't enough. Nobody is diminishing Chris ey, but we need a lot more production from our wide receivers. At this point the only receivers on our roster that have produced in the NFL are Moss, ARE, and Thrash. After that it's bunch of nobodies with Mix, McMullen, etc.

[PulpExposure]

Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

Hi, my name is Chris ey. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?

One target isn't enough. Nobody is diminishing Chris ey, but we need a lot more production from our wide receivers. At this point the only receivers on our roster that have produced in the NFL are Moss, ARE, and Thrash. After that it's bunch of nobodies with Mix, McMullen, etc.

I agree with you, but that's not his premise. His premise is we need a BIG POSSESSION TARGET. We have one. Could we use another? Sure...but what we could use more than anything is a good wide receiver.

Marvin Harrison isn't a big guy by any stretch, but could we use someone as good as him? Uh, yeah.

[SkinsFreak]

Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

Hi, my name is Chris ey. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?

One target isn't enough. Nobody is diminishing Chris ey, but we need a lot more production from our wide receivers. At this point the only receivers on our roster that have produced in the NFL are Moss, ARE, and Thrash. After that it's bunch of nobodies with Mix, McMullen, etc.

I agree with you, but that's not his premise. His premise is we need a BIG POSSESSION TARGET. We have one. Could we use another? Sure...but what we could use more than anything is a good wide receiver.

Marvin Harrison isn't a big guy by any stretch, but could we use someone as good as him? Uh, yeah.

Man, Gibbs traded up to grab ey in the 3rd round. What a beautiful move that was.

I agree with both of you. ey is a stud of good size and we also need a #2 possession receiver. I'm salivating over the possible core of ey, Moss, ARE, Kelly and Mix as starters. The simple addition of someone like Kelly will make the rest of those receivers even better, as Kelly would garner much attention from DB's, therefore opening up and uncovering the others. Moss has been doubled and tripled over the past few years. Not with a #2 like Kelly and ARE in the slot. Also, in the WCO, we may have a 4 receiver set, and Mix, Moss, ARE and Kelly would be sweet.

Did I mentioned my mouth is watering...

[yupchagee]

Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

Hi, my name is Chris ey. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?

One target isn't enough. Nobody is diminishing Chris ey, but we need a lot more production from our wide receivers. At this point the only receivers on our roster that have produced in the NFL are Moss, ARE, and Thrash. After that it's bunch of nobodies with Mix, McMullen, etc.

I agree with you, but that's not his premise. His premise is we need a BIG POSSESSION TARGET. We have one. Could we use another? Sure...but what we could use more than anything is a good wide receiver.

Marvin Harrison isn't a big guy by any stretch, but could we use someone as good as him? Uh, yeah.

Man, Gibbs traded up to grab ey in the 3rd round. What a beautiful move that was.

I agree with both of you. ey is a stud of good size and we also need a #2 possession receiver. I'm salivating over the possible core of ey, Moss, ARE, Kelly and Mix as starters. The simple addition of someone like Kelly will make the rest of those receivers even better, as Kelly would garner much attention from DB's, therefore opening up and uncovering the others. Moss has been doubled and tripled over the past few years. Not with a #2 like Kelly and ARE in the slot. Also, in the WCO, we may have a 4 receiver set, and Mix, Moss, ARE and Kelly would be sweet.

Did I mentioned my mouth is watering...

I'm salivating over the possible core of ey, Moss, ARE, Kelly and Mix as starters

Are you planning to have Portis on the bench?????

[SkinsFreak]

Are you planning to have Portis on the bench?????

Yes, in "some" cases on 3rd and long, Portis and ey may be on the sidelines for a 4 receiver set. Many, many teams use that formation, such as the Pat's and the Colts, not just WCO teams like Seattle, who also uses that formation. On other 3rd and longs, you might keep Portis in and throw a screen pass to him. The beauty of the WCO are the diverse packages and formations.

What I meant was those guys being our main receivers, not necessarily on the same play.

[CanesSkins26]

Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

Hi, my name is Chris ey. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?

One target isn't enough. Nobody is diminishing Chris ey, but we need a lot more production from our wide receivers. At this point the only receivers on our roster that have produced in the NFL are Moss, ARE, and Thrash. After that it's bunch of nobodies with Mix, McMullen, etc.

I agree with you, but that's not his premise. His premise is we need a BIG POSSESSION TARGET. We have one. Could we use another? Sure...but what we could use more than anything is a good wide receiver.

Marvin Harrison isn't a big guy by any stretch, but could we use someone as good as him? Uh, yeah.

Man, Gibbs traded up to grab ey in the 3rd round. What a beautiful move that was.

I agree with both of you. ey is a stud of good size and we also need a #2 possession receiver. I'm salivating over the possible core of ey, Moss, ARE, Kelly and Mix as starters. The simple addition of someone like Kelly will make the rest of those receivers even better, as Kelly would garner much attention from DB's, therefore opening up and uncovering the others. Moss has been doubled and tripled over the past few years. Not with a #2 like Kelly and ARE in the slot. Also, in the WCO, we may have a 4 receiver set, and Mix, Moss, ARE and Kelly would be sweet.

Did I mentioned my mouth is watering...

I agree about Moss, ARE, and Kelly, but I really don't understand people's fascination with Mix. He has done absolutely NOTHING in the NFL and wasn't even productive in college. Yes he's got good size, but so did Rod Gardner. I think all of the talk of him actually contributing anything on the field is not only premature but also wishful thinking. It would be nice if he turned into a productive receiver, but if the Skins are relying on that as part of their plan for our wide receivers, they are taking an awful big risk because our depth chart at receiver is extremely thin right now.

[SkinsFreak]

I agree about Moss, ARE, and Kelly, but I really don't understand people's fascination with Mix. He has done absolutely NOTHING in the NFL and wasn't even productive in college. Yes he's got good size, but so did Rod Gardner. I think all of the talk of him actually contributing anything on the field is not only premature but also wishful thinking. It would be nice if he turned into a productive receiver, but if the Skins are relying on that as part of their plan for our wide receivers, they are taking an awful big risk because our depth chart at receiver is extremely thin right now.

No one is suggesting Mix is the next Jerry Rice. Mix impressed a lot of people in New York during his short tenure there. All anyone here has said is that he deserves a look, and apparently, so does our head coach.

In discussing wide receivers, Zorn mentioned Anthony Mix, the 6-5, 235-pound second-year player out of Auburn.

"Wow, he's a big receiver," Zorn said. "He's going to get an opportunity."

[yupchagee]

Are you planning to have Portis on the bench?????

Yes, in "some" cases on 3rd and long, Portis and ey may be on the sidelines for a 4 receiver set. Many, many teams use that formation, such as the Pat's and the Colts, not just WCO teams like Seattle, who also uses that formation. On other 3rd and longs, you might keep Portis in and throw a screen pass to him. The beauty of the WCO are the diverse packages and formations.

What I meant was those guys being our main receivers, not necessarily on the same play.

I was responding specifically to your statement:

I'm salivating over the possible core of ey, Moss, ARE, Kelly and Mix as starters

[Assasin atm]

Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.

Hi, my name is Chris ey. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?

no I remember bud. But you are one man who is a tight end and who is double covered especially in the red zone. A west coast offenses main staple is based around a big RECIEVER. That's the way its historically been and this situation is no different. A James Hardy 6'6" 235ish would have made a huge differnce in the redzone last year. A good handed TE and a big possession WR are a must 2 run a good WCO.