2007 Patriots vs All time greats

[HEROHAMO]

I just wanted to have some fun on this one. I will just list how the Patriots would do against some of the all time great teams.

1. 2007 Patriots vs 1972 Dolphins
Patriots win this game. Dolphins ball control offense keeps it close, but Brady proves to be to much for the Dolphins. 28-14 Patriots.

2. 2001 Ravens vs 2007 Patriots
Consider this. The current Ravens almost beat the Patriots in a thriller. They lost by less than a touchdown.
The 2000 Ravens allowed the lowest points in history. They had an outstanding secondary with the likes of a young Chris Mccalister and a veteran safety Rod Woodson. Not to mention hall of famer Ray Lewis.
A turnover differential of plus 23. That is good for at least two turnovers a game. Also they had a young RB Jamal Lewis who rushed for nearly 1400 yards that year. There special teams was tops in the league.

I take the Ravens in this one. 24-14 Ravens

3. 1995 Cowboys vs 2007 Patriots
Bottom line is would these Patriots be able to stop emmitt smith? Uh I think not. Emmit Smith rushed for over 1700 yards and 25 touchdowns. A massive offensive line second only to the legendary Hogs. A smart and saavy qb. Jay Novacheck and Michael Irvin.

Now would these Cowboys be able to stop the Patriots. Hmmm.... Neon deon Sanders locks down moss all day. Darren woodson patroling the secondary. Leon Lett and Charles Haley pressuring the Qb.

This one is still a close one. As much as I hated these years I still know how good this squad was.

Cowboys 28-21

4. 1991 Redskins vs 2007 Patriots

Redskins win in a blowout. I just dont think this Patriots defense would be able to stop the Redskins running game. Also Rypien hits Monk , Clark and Sanders on playaction for scores. The hogs prove to be too much.
Darrell green locked up on Moss all day holds moss to no catches. Charles mann proves to be unblockable. Monte Coleman , Wilbur Marshall and even Jumpy Geathers pressure Brady all day.

Redskins 42-10 Patriots

5. 1989 49ers vs 2007 Patriots

49ers 35-21

I will just list the 49ers Roster it should be enough.

Roger Craig RB, Qb Joe Montana, Steve Young, Fb Tom Rathman , WR Jerry Rice , WR John Taylor, DE Charles Haley, FS Ronnie Lott, LB Bill Romanowski, Matt Millen, etc.. Ronnie Alone on defense would punish any of the New England wide receivers.

1986 Giants vs 2007 Patriots

This one I have to give to the Giants. They had a strong running game. Joe Morris gained 1500 yards that year. They had a smart and saavy qb. Probably the best tight end I have ever seen in Mark Bavaro. I know you old school Skins fans remember Phil Mconkey. Mconkey was clutch when the Giants needed him hands of glue. Bavaro is by far the best tight end I have ever seen. All Skins fans know how good Bavaro was. Bavaro was like a freakin garbage truck in a football uniform who could catch the ball. clutch is an understatement.

Also consider that Lawrence Taylor had a mind boggling 20 sacks in 1986. Yes folks 20 sacks. The whole defense had 60 sacks that year. Leonard Marshall had 10 sacks to add to that. Numerous QB pressures before it was even a stat.

I do not care what offensive line you have. You are not blocking Lawrence Taylor. Especially version 1986.

Giants win with Taylor in Bradys face all day long.

24-16 Giants

1985 Bears vs 2007 Patriots

This is a blowout folks.

The 1985 Bears had a total number of 64 Sacks and 34 interceptions. No way this Patriots line can block the great defense known as the 85 Bears.
What time would Brady have to do anything. What rushing yards would Maroney get? The Bears defense was in your face the second the ball was hiked. I know you old school guys remember. What is even more remarkable is that this same group of guys managed to get seventy sacks in 1987 wow! Those numbers may never be seen again.

Some folks think that this current Patriots squad can block that . Hmmm no freakin way.

Richard Dent and Dan Hampton , the Fridge manning the front. Mike Singletary a very smart leader. Oh did I forget to mention this team had a guy named Walter Payton? They also had a Randy Moss of there time Willie Gault.

Bears 64 Patriots 0

I just think any pre salary cap team would wipe the floor with most of the current teams. The Patriots are no exception.

1983 Raider vs 2007 Patriots

This is as far back as I can remember. I give this one two the Raiders. Two outstanding cornerbacks. Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes. An outstanding D line , Howie Long, Lyle Alzado. Greg Townsend. Also a hall of fame running back Marcus Allen. A deep threat name Cliff Branch. Cliff Branch was a killer with the deep bomb.

Raider win this one 35-21

In the Poll I just listed teams I think would beat the Patriots.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

1991 Redskins. That team was something special.

[SkinsJock]

Very interesting - Today's Patriots are better than the recent teams but I agree - most of the special teams from the 80s - 90s would have beaten the Patriots and the Colts of this era - I would also say that it was not just the Super Bowl winners but a lot of the other "good" teams would have beaten this group

The Patriots are special because of what they have achieved but the present day teams do not match up as well as the teams from that era.

The bad teams from that era are a lot better than a lot of teams from this era

[frankcal20]

I was thinking "The Greatest Show on Turf" would easily beat the Patriots. Those guys could work the clock and stop guys from scoring. Thats one of the best teams i've seen in my lifetime along with a bunch of the 9'rs of the 90's.

[HEROHAMO]

I was thinking "The Greatest Show on Turf" would easily beat the Patriots. Those guys could work the clock and stop guys from scoring. Thats one of the best teams i've seen in my lifetime along with a bunch of the 9'rs of the 90's.

Well I agree the Rams were pretty good. But remember this the first version of the Patriots beat that same Rams team in the SuperBowl. Now it could be argued that this is the best of those Patriots teams. So honestly I think those Rams teams were one of the best offensive teams ever. There defense was solid enough to win them one SuperBowl.

[HEROHAMO]

I forgot to mention the Steelers Dynasty of the 70s. I was too young to see them play personally. I still think they were one of the best teams ever assembled.

[welch]

The 1972 Redskins could beat this Patriot team. I watched them lose composure in the first half of the Giants game...players wioth heads down, near tears. Wolfolk poking a finger into Jacobs eye.

Noticed that defenders don't hit like the old guys. Pat Fischer would not let Moss prance away after a pass. If that pas was anywhere near Moss, Fischer would take Moss's head off.

Likewise, the Redskins defensive line would have broken Brady. Diron. Diron Talbert. McDole, Biggs, Brundige. Not a single guy who tackled gently.

[DarthMonk]

The 1972 Redskins could beat this Patriot team. I watched them lose composure in the first half of the Giants game...players wioth heads down, near tears. Wolfolk poking a finger into Jacobs eye.

Noticed that defenders don't hit like the old guys. Pat Fischer would not let Moss prance away after a pass. If that pas was anywhere near Moss, Fischer would take Moss's head off.

Likewise, the Redskins defensive line would have broken Brady. Diron. Diron Talbert. McDole, Biggs, Brundige. Not a single guy who tackled gently.

I generally think the Welch-meister is spot on. (Did anyone read his dismantling of Rice stats in the Rice/Monk/Taylor thread?) But this time I must disagree. I saw this team and it was great but when you go back that far the differences in size and quickness are too much. If the game were played by the rules of 1972 that would keep it closer but that's all. That 'Skins team might not score and the Pats would win easily - IMO.

The oldest teams big, fast, and strong enough to beat the current Pats probably only go back to the early 80s at best. The current PATs would out-athelete anyone before that and out-execute most since. I actually think they would take the '85 Bears. They were dominant but really surprised people by blitzing ALL THE TIME. It got figured out and exposed - mainly by the 'Skins of Gibbs with Schroeder and Williams. The teams that would give the Pats trouble would have potent offenses and excellent defenses in addition to a minimum of size and quickness which those '72 'Skins would not have had enough of.

I'll go with the '91 'Skins and the mid-90s Cowboys. They would have been just as unstoppable (or more so) than these Pats and had better defenses and were just as big and fast.

For instance, consider the Pats' defensive front vs that '72 offensive line:

'72 'Skins:
O Line:
Hermeling 6'5 265
Laaveg 6'4 245
Hauss 6'2 235
Wilbur 6'3 250
Rock 6'5 255


Current Pats:
D Line:
Wilfork 6'2 325
Seymor 6'6 310
Smith 6'1 310
Warren 6'5 300

By compasrison the D Line of McDole, Brundige, Talbert, and Biggs went 265, 270, 255, and 275. The biggest among them would be considered small now and probably slow too.

All these modern huge guys are fast as hell too. Sorry. I loved those 'Skins. They had players that could star today (my best best - Jefferson and Taylor at WR, Jurgy at QB, Bass at CB, Owens at SS), but the fronts would not hold up under the pressure of 60 minutes of being outweighed by faster guys - or outrun by heavier guys whichever way you want to look at it.



PS - The best part of this will be the Welch-meister's reply because if he goes for it, it's gonna be awesome.

DarthMonk

[HEROHAMO]

The 1972 Redskins could beat this Patriot team. I watched them lose composure in the first half of the Giants game...players wioth heads down, near tears. Wolfolk poking a finger into Jacobs eye.

Noticed that defenders don't hit like the old guys. Pat Fischer would not let Moss prance away after a pass. If that pas was anywhere near Moss, Fischer would take Moss's head off.

Likewise, the Redskins defensive line would have broken Brady. Diron. Diron Talbert. McDole, Biggs, Brundige. Not a single guy who tackled gently.

I generally think the Welch-meister is spot on. (Did anyone read his dismantling of Rice stats in the Rice/Monk/Taylor thread?) But this time I must disagree. I saw this team and it was great but when you go back that far the differences in size and quickness are too much. If the game were played by the rules of 1972 that would keep it closer but that's all. That 'Skins team might not score and the Pats would win easily - IMO.

The oldest teams big, fast, and strong enough to beat the current Pats probably only go back to the early 80s at best. The current PATs would out-athelete anyone before that and out-execute most since. I actually think they would take the '85 Bears. They were dominant but really surprised people by blitzing ALL THE TIME. It got figured out and exposed - mainly by the 'Skins of Gibbs with Schroeder and Williams. The teams that would give the Pats trouble would have potent offenses and excellent defenses in addition to a minimum of size and quickness which those '72 'Skins would not have had enough of.

I'll go with the '91 'Skins and the mid-90s Cowboys. They would have been just as unstoppable (or more so) than these Pats and had better defenses and were just as big and fast.

For instance, consider the Pats' defensive front vs that '72 offensive line:

'72 'Skins:
O Line:
Hermeling 6'5 265
Laaveg 6'4 245
Hauss 6'2 235
Wilbur 6'3 250
Rock 6'5 255


Current Pats:
D Line:
Wilfork 6'2 325
Seymor 6'6 310
Smith 6'1 310
Warren 6'5 300

By compasrison the D Line of McDole, Brundige, Talbert, and Biggs went 265, 270, 255, and 275. The biggest among them would be considered small now and probably slow too.

All these modern huge guys are fast as hell too. Sorry. I loved those 'Skins. They had players that could star today (my best best - Jefferson and Taylor at WR, Jurgy at QB, Bass at CB, Owens at SS), but the fronts would not hold up under the pressure of 60 minutes of being outweighed by faster guys - or outrun by heavier guys whichever way you want to look at it.



PS - The best part of this will be the Welch-meister's reply because if he goes for it, it's gonna be awesome.

DarthMonk

I go by heart and character. Just because some players may be bigger now means nothing. If the players from the seventys were playing now they would have the same nutritional and scientific advantages.

It is the character of a person that gets an athlete to the physical peak that they are in. An all star in the sixtys would still be an all star now. The simple fact that they would benefit from the same advantages that the atheletes benefit from now.

Also consider the knowledge that is now available would be available to the players of the past if they played now.

So when I compare team. I think in terms of heart, character, determination, and the overall dominace they displayed in there era.

The current Patriots currently have the most prolific passing team ever.
They own the most Tds by a Qb and a single receiver in a single season.

These patriots lack a real running game and a dominating defense.
They certainly have a decent defense but the running game is not that impressive.

I will give the current Pats credit for the record they have posted so far. 16-0 is very impressive. They still have to win the big one though.

[DarthMonk]

This is the way the argument has to go...

I go by heart and character. Just because some players may be bigger now means nothing. If the players from the seventys were playing now they would have the same nutritional and scientific advantages.

It is the character of a person that gets an athlete to the physical peak that they are in. An all star in the sixtys would still be an all star now. The simple fact that they would benefit from the same advantages that the atheletes benefit from now.

Also consider the knowledge that is now available would be available to the players of the past if they played now.

So when I compare team. I think in terms of heart, character, determination, and the overall dominace they displayed in there era.

... but thuis particular line

Just because some players may be bigger now means nothing.

goes too far. This is why Jurgy could be great today but Eddie LeBaron could not.

Good points. It's the argument I use when I compare Russell and Wilt to people like Shaq. If they grew up now they'd be awesome. Note how the showtime Lakers stand up regardless. They are recent enough. In fact, I dare they they'd crush all current teams without any era adjustments needed. Also, to suggest that all of today's players lack heart and character (not that you did that exactly) is not fair.

DarthMonk

[GSPODS]

If the current Patriots team was not playing with the benefit of "The Pussy Rules", there would be no discussion of how good this team is, and there would be no comparison to the all-time great teams.

I suppose I should define "The Pussy Rules." Up until the late 1990's a defensive player could still unload on a quarterback without fear of a personal foul attached. Under today's rules, the area that can legally be contacted on a quarterback is smaller than a football.

Pass interference rules are also considerably different. At one time, the defender could tackle the receiver at the line of scrimmage without a cheap "illegal contact" penalty. Likewise, the receiver could knock the defender down. Under today's rules, the receiver can push off (see Randy Moss) but the defender cannot even faceguard the receiver, much less make any type of contact.

This New England team is a bunch of pampered pansies. Although teams of past eras were often smaller and slower than today's NFL teams are, players of past eras also played harder and hit harder.

If anyone else is old enough to remember, NFL players used to have to work actual jobs in addition to playing football. Playing football, at one time, did not pay the bills. Those players played without the greed mentality of today, and the best of those players would, in my opinion, physically and mentally crush this Patriots team.

[welch]

I'm assuming that there is some "virtual adjustment" made for the difference in size. The young folks -- my generation's children -- are simply bigger. Talked with an old friend, after I noticed that all the members of my town high school's girls sports teams were about 5-11, strong, and seemed to walk around with a lacrosse stick in one hand and a field hockey stick in the other.

She said, "Of course. Just think of all the hormones in foods today."

*

Even the 86 Giants / 91 Redskins would be smallish today. Dave Butz was immovable at 300 pounds (Madden during a broadcast: "Dave doesn't go anywhere he doesn't want to." Same Butz who smothered two blockers plus Elway on a QB draw in SB 22). Lachey was about 295, Jacoby about 300, and they were big.

I'm not so sure about speed.

*

Allowing a bit for size, I think that the '72 Redskins, maybe even with Sonny hurt, would have stomped the Patriots.

One thing I noticed was that Patriot receivers dropped to the ground every time they caught a ball. Looked like QB's after a scramble. Even so, I think George Allen's guys would have gotten lower and hurt them.

Does anyone remember the "Chris Hanburger flip"? Hanburger, who was all of 215 pounds (and an all-pro severl times) used to run straight at a ball carrier, bend himself like a pretzel, grab the runner's ankles, and stand up. Boom! Runner landed on his head.

Diron didn't gently place a QB on the ground. Diron was unhappy if the QB even got up.

*

One more thing: Give Allen a team to hate, and one game to play, and he would win. There was something inside crazy old George. Especially if the opponent had a fancy offense, George would find a way to break it.

The old Redskin/Cowboy games, which were more Allen/Landry games, used to be a hoot because Landry never seemed to understand that Allen wasn't just playing a game...George was out to avenge any bad thing that had happened to DC, including, for instance, the pure arrogance of a hick town in Texas claiming it was more "America's team" than the team representing the Nation's Capital. Allen even used MLB: he took over the year that MLB moved the Senators to Dallas, which became the biggest of insults.

*

Therefore (wew), allowing for size, the '72 Skins would have shredded the gutless Patsies. Especially with Jurgensen at QB. I can just imagine Charley Taylor, a great athlete, listening to the drooling bilge about Randy Moss.

A clear difference? If Wolfolk had tried to poke Larry Brown in they eye, Brown would have run him down on the next play. And sometime later, Taylor would have broken Woolfolk's leg.

*

Finally, a crazy George story. Allen refused to renew his contract with the Redskins, and signed with the Rams. At the first team meeting, George gathered the players around him, grabbed a trash can with both hands, and smashed it against a wall. "That's Roger Staubach and that's how you beat the Cowboys!" The Rams players kind of edged away, murmering, "Uncool", and later asked Georgia Frontiere, the owner, to make evil George go away.

In '72, Allen would have picked up a trash can, held it in front of Jack Pardee and Diron Talbert, smashed it, and shouted, "That's Tom Brady and that's how we beat the Putsies!"

[DarthMonk]

I'm assuming that there is some "virtual adjustment" made for the difference in size. The young folks -- my generation's children -- are simply bigger. Talked with an old friend, after I noticed that all the members of my town high school's girls sports teams were about 5-11, strong, and seemed to walk around with a lacrosse stick in one hand and a field hockey stick in the other.

She said, "Of course. Just think of all the hormones in foods today."

*

Even the 86 Giants / 91 Redskins would be smallish today. Dave Butz was immovable at 300 pounds (Madden during a broadcast: "Dave doesn't go anywhere he doesn't want to." Same Butz who smothered two blockers plus Elway on a QB draw in SB 22). Lachey was about 295, Jacoby about 300, and they were big.

I'm not so sure about speed.

*

Allowing a bit for size, I think that the '72 Redskins, maybe even with Sonny hurt, would have stomped the Patriots.

One thing I noticed was that Patriot receivers dropped to the ground every time they caught a ball. Looked like QB's after a scramble. Even so, I think George Allen's guys would have gotten lower and hurt them.

Does anyone remember the "Chris Hanburger flip"? Hanburger, who was all of 215 pounds (and an all-pro severl times) used to run straight at a ball carrier, bend himself like a pretzel, grab the runner's ankles, and stand up. Boom! Runner landed on his head.

Diron didn't gently place a QB on the ground. Diron was unhappy if the QB even got up.

*

One more thing: Give Allen a team to hate, and one game to play, and he would win. There was something inside crazy old George. Especially if the opponent had a fancy offense, George would find a way to break it.

The old Redskin/Cowboy games, which were more Allen/Landry games, used to be a hoot because Landry never seemed to understand that Allen wasn't just playing a game...George was out to avenge any bad thing that had happened to DC, including, for instance, the pure arrogance of a hick town in Texas claiming it was more "America's team" than the team representing the Nation's Capital. Allen even used MLB: he took over the year that MLB moved the Senators to Dallas, which became the biggest of insults.

*

Therefore (wew), allowing for size, the '72 Skins would have shredded the gutless Patsies. Especially with Jurgensen at QB. I can just imagine Charley Taylor, a great athlete, listening to the drooling bilge about Randy Moss.

A clear difference? If Wolfolk had tried to poke Larry Brown in they eye, Brown would have run him down on the next play. And sometime later, Taylor would have broken Woolfolk's leg.

*

Finally, a crazy George story. Allen refused to renew his contract with the Redskins, and signed with the Rams. At the first team meeting, George gathered the players around him, grabbed a trash can with both hands, and smashed it against a wall. "That's Roger Staubach and that's how you beat the Cowboys!" The Rams players kind of edged away, murmering, "Uncool", and later asked Georgia Frontiere, the owner, to make evil George go away.

In '72, Allen would have picked up a trash can, held it in front of Jack Pardee and Diron Talbert, smashed it, and shouted, "That's Tom Brady and that's how we beat the Putsies!"

Great stuff my man. Of course, you went way to far 3 or 4 times but that's cool. It works both ways. If we adjust for size and weight for the old guys becoming modern then we have to adjust for the new guys adapting to old rules as well. You don't think Brady could excel under old rules??? I sure do. Tall. Accurate. Big arm. Sees field great. Most of all - a great leader. To use "crush" when saying what an old team would do the Pats is ridiculous but you da man. I was a big fan then and saw all those guys play too. I'm not just a "modern homer." Charley Taylor woulda been great today. Larry Brown was tough but he couldn't "run down" a 320 pounder. He couldn't even run down smallish Dolphins in the Super Bowl. But I guess those Dolphins would crush the Pats too. Sorry, I think you say a lot of good things but I sense a bit of Redskin/old school homerism from you. I'm willing to say "pick 'em" allowing for eras but that's all.

PS - It really would be a pleasure to see an old school dismantling of Randy Moss.

DarthMonk

[NE P]

16-0!

[SkinsJock]

16-0!

you forgot something - an * not a ! ([or 15-1, take your choice) and this should be because your coach got caught cheating in the first game of what could have been a perfect regular season



16-0*








AND the season aint over till the fat lady sings

[NE P]

16-0!

you forgot something - an * not a ! ([or 15-1, take your choice) and this should be because your coach got caught cheating in the first game of what could have been a perfect regular season



16-0*








AND the season aint over till the fat lady sings

Yeah, I forgot. 16-0*. Still looks good to me. I'll take it just like I'll take 19-0*.

[Deadskins]

The real deciding factor is which rules you play under. If it is the new school, QB wears a tutu, and can't be touched; WR goes over the middle and it is a penalty to make contact, then the Patsies probably win. Give me the old-school rules, and the Skins, and we will win every time.

[HEROHAMO]

I have to agree with the Panzie rules playing a factor. Most definatley.

Back in the days you could unload on a quarterback and that was part of the game.

I remember Terry Bradshaw landed on his head one time. He was out for a whole quarter then came back in the game.

Remember how the Joe Montana used to get hit by the Redskins and the Giants and yet he still was successful.

You just have to wonder how good Tom Brady would be under the old school rules? Also how healthy Tom Brady would be. There is no doubt in my mind that he would at least have missed a couple games by now.

This day in age they protect the qb way too much. It is the panzie rules.

[HEROHAMO]

16-0!

you forgot something - an * not a ! ([or 15-1, take your choice) and this should be because your coach got caught cheating in the first game of what could have been a perfect regular season



16-0*











AND the season aint over till the fat lady sings

Yeah, I forgot. 16-0*. Still looks good to me. I'll take it just like I'll take 19-0*.

Well they still have to win the big one. Until then we will just have to see.

[DarthMonk]

I have to agree with the Panzie rules playing a factor. Most definatley.

No doubt - they would play a factor.

Back in the days you could unload on a quarterback and that was part of the game.

Let's realize you can still unload. It just can't be as late as it once could and you can't give head shots.

I remember Terry Bradshaw landed on his head one time. He was out for a whole quarter then came back in the game.

He was tough.

Remember how the Joe Montana used to get hit by the Redskins and the Giants and yet he still was successful.

Lucky for him he was not in the NFC East. Giants sort of ended it for him.

You just have to wonder how good Tom Brady would be under the old school rules?

This Redskin fan (since 1967) says "Damn good."

Also how healthy Tom Brady would be. There is no doubt in my mind that he would at least have missed a couple games by now.

They ALL have - except Favre? I saw Brady get crushed at least 3 times against the Giants. He had one or more 300 pouinders landing on him with full force. The passes were complete and he got up and kept playing. He's tough.

This day in age they protect the qb way too much. It is the panzie rules.

True.

BTW - How would the current 'Skins fare against the '72 'Skins??????

DarthMonk

[Deadskins]

BTW - How would the current 'Skins fare against the '72 'Skins??????

The Skins would definitely win!

[Countertrey]

Welch remembers:

Same Butz who smothered two blockers plus Elway on a QB draw in SB 22

That was the best tackle in the history of the NFL.

[Deadskins]

Welch remembers:

Same Butz who smothered two blockers plus Elway on a QB draw in SB 22

That was the best tackle in the history of the NFL.

Butz, or the play he made?

[Countertrey]

Welch remembers:

Same Butz who smothered two blockers plus Elway on a QB draw in SB 22

That was the best tackle in the history of the NFL.

Butz, or the play he made?

I was thinking the play, but, while we are at it... Dave Butz was a monster when his game face was on...

[Deadskins]

Welch remembers:

Same Butz who smothered two blockers plus Elway on a QB draw in SB 22

That was the best tackle in the history of the NFL.

Butz, or the play he made?

I was thinking the play, but, while we are at it... Dave Butz was a monster when his game face was on...

One of my favorite all-time Skins. I'll always like the Cardinals for giving him up to us.