What do we do about our starting QB???

[brad7686]

It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN.

The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.

Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.

Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.

He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.

Your crazy- i agree he has some problems like you said but to compare him to Ramsey is nuts. Now the game is too quick for Ramsey and he's proved that over and over. If Jason gets decent protection he makes great throws on time in stride. His pocket presence needs to be worked on but it comes with time. If people think he is come in there and put up Manning and Brady or even Farve type numbers right away after 20 sum starts then i hope your never a general manager of anything sports related. He needs time to develop. Constant pressure from an inconsestant O-line does not help your timing in a timing based offense. Its unfair to make a judgement like that after 1.5 seasons at quarterback. And if your expecting a trade with him involved then you are gona be highly disappointed because he's not going anywhere-anytime soon.

In year 3 Ramsey was playing a lot better than Campell and he was coached by Spurrier for two years. Campell doesn't have it, he is not even as good as Ramsey lets trade him while his value is high and move on.

You are insane. Besides the fumbles, Campbell has played pretty well this year. When Collins has faced an actual pass defense and done well, then maybe you could say the job would be up for grabs next year, but until then this is all premature. Any qb in high school could have hit cooley the other day as wide open as he was. It was nice to see moss go up and make a play though, apparently he can catch if the ball is thrown extremely weakly.

[RayNAustin]

George Allen said it best. The future is NOW.

And please explain where that attitude has gotten this franchise in the last 15 years? It is that type of short sighted approach that has led to many of the problems that this franchise has had, especially under Snyder. It is the quick fix approach and a total unwillingness to go through an actual building process that has led to many losing seasons. The goal is to have a team that can compete year in and year out (see New England, Indy, Pittsburgh) and not just make the playoffs once and then suck for 3-4 seasons.

I don't think you read between the lines very well so I'll be more specific.

You have it all wrong. Wanting to win, and doing everything you can to do it is not a fault, and it is not what's wrong here. The problem the Redskins have been suffering from is poor judgement in talent evaluation, and paying too much for players who produce too little, and sticking with them for too long. And right now, Jason fits that description perfectly, just as Carlos Rodgers does. We picked both of these guys in the first round 3 years ago. Three years later, their performance has not been anywhere near 1st round quality. So if our 1st round picks play this way, what should we expect from the 4th, 5th, and 6th rounders?

Successful teams find usable, serviceable talent in the late rounds to complement their STAR performers that were picked early. The Patriots have Brady who was a 6th round pick. Rothlisberger who WON 13 games in his ROOKIE year, and went to the Super Bowl. Romo was an UNDRAFTED free agent signed by the Cowboys. By contrast, Campbell is in his 3rd year and still struggling to read defenses and find open receivers.

We've got the car, we've got the horsepower, now we just need somebody to DRIVE IT. It might not be the shiniest or fastest car, but with the RIGHT driver, the car can win. Campbell hasn't gotten the car out of second gear, and by waiting for him to find third gear, the engine is getting older and other parts will be wearing out.

No one expects to have a Rothlisberger who comes out and wins in his rookie year, but it does happen. However, Campbell has had a year and a half of coaching and learning, and another year and a half of playing full time, and you should expect more from him. What you should not expect is for your 36 year old career back up QB to come out and play circles around your FRANCHISE QB after not starting a game in 10 years.

That should tell you something about the talent evaluation process right there.

And your solution to the Redskins problems is to continue playing Campbell and losing, rather than play Collins because we have so much already invested in Campbell? THAT sounds like what the Redskins have been doing for the past 15 years.

[Assasin atm]

George Allen said it best. The future is NOW.

And please explain where that attitude has gotten this franchise in the last 15 years? It is that type of short sighted approach that has led to many of the problems that this franchise has had, especially under Snyder. It is the quick fix approach and a total unwillingness to go through an actual building process that has led to many losing seasons. The goal is to have a team that can compete year in and year out (see New England, Indy, Pittsburgh) and not just make the playoffs once and then suck for 3-4 seasons.

I don't think you read between the lines very well so I'll be more specific.

You have it all wrong. Wanting to win, and doing everything you can to do it is not a fault, and it is not what's wrong here. The problem the Redskins have been suffering from is poor judgement in talent evaluation, and paying too much for players who produce too little, and sticking with them for too long. And right now, Jason fits that description perfectly, just as Carlos Rodgers does. We picked both of these guys in the first round 3 years ago. Three years later, their performance has not been anywhere near 1st round quality. So if our 1st round picks play this way, what should we expect from the 4th, 5th, and 6th rounders?

Successful teams find usable, serviceable talent in the late rounds to complement their STAR performers that were picked early. The Patriots have Brady who was a 6th round pick. Rothlisberger who WON 13 games in his ROOKIE year, and went to the Super Bowl. Romo was an UNDRAFTED free agent signed by the Cowboys. By contrast, Campbell is in his 3rd year and still struggling to read defenses and find open receivers.

We've got the car, we've got the horsepower, now we just need somebody to DRIVE IT. It might not be the shiniest or fastest car, but with the RIGHT driver, the car can win. Campbell hasn't gotten the car out of second gear, and by waiting for him to find third gear, the engine is getting older and other parts will be wearing out.

No one expects to have a Rothlisberger who comes out and wins in his rookie year, but it does happen. However, Campbell has had a year and a half of coaching and learning, and another year and a half of playing full time, and you should expect more from him. What you should not expect is for your 36 year old career back up QB to come out and play circles around your FRANCHISE QB after not starting a game in 10 years.

That should tell you something about the talent evaluation process right there.

And your solution to the Redskins problems is to continue playing Campbell and losing, rather than play Collins because we have so much already invested in Campbell? THAT sounds like what the Redskins have been doing for the past 15 years.

Collins has been in the al saunders scheme for what for a good number of years. Teammates have said it themselves that he prepares every week like he is gona start and in that process has picked up skills that jason campbell will learn as he matures as an NFL quarterback- Campbell has had only a few years learning the system along with learning the normal qb things that you need to have in the NFL. Give Jason time. Ok he's not Ben Rothlisburger but who's to say that he wont be one day. He has all the intangables- just give him time. Seeing Collins do so well will light a fire under Jason this off-season and i would be surprised if we didnt see a much improved qb next year.

[PulpExposure]

Campbell was injured with less than three minutes remaining in the half, and Collins comes in, and immediately drives us to a score.

Oh come on now. You love to spin things to fit your own thoughts, and normally I ignore it, but this is particularly egregious. Collins got the ball on the Bears 20 yard line. It's not like he had to do a lot of work...and I can't recall Campbell EVER getting the ball in the opponent's red zone to start a drive.

The previous two weeks we scored only 13 points against Tampa, and 16 points against Buffalo. Same receivers that are too short for Campbell. and the same O-Line that couldn't pass block for Campbell suddenly begins to play?

Ok, you're compariing the Chicago game to a game against the NFC's top ranked defense (Tampa) in Tampa, and to the game immediately after Sean Taylor's murder?

Come on now. That's completely unfair.

[chiefhog44]

Campbell was injured with less than three minutes remaining in the half, and Collins comes in, and immediately drives us to a score.

FYI
He got the ball and went three and out. Springs then intercepted the ball and took the ball down to the 26 (?) yard line where Collins then threw a touchdown to Yoder. Terrible pass but great catch.

[crazyhorse1]

It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN.

The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.

Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.

Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.

He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.

Your crazy- i agree he has some problems like you said but to compare him to Ramsey is nuts. Now the game is too quick for Ramsey and he's proved that over and over. If Jason gets decent protection he makes great throws on time in stride. His pocket presence needs to be worked on but it comes with time. If people think he is come in there and put up Manning and Brady or even Farve type numbers right away after 20 sum starts then i hope your never a general manager of anything sports related. He needs time to develop. Constant pressure from an inconsestant O-line does not help your timing in a timing based offense. Its unfair to make a judgement like that after 1.5 seasons at quarterback. And if your expecting a trade with him involved then you are gona be highly disappointed because he's not going anywhere-anytime soon.

Sorry to mention Ramsey again, but I can't help noticing his production with the Skins was better than Campbell's is now and that he only had about 22 quarters on field-- in other words, about the same as Campbell.
Do I sense a double standard?

Or triple standard. I think it's amazing Ramsey's memory is so tarnished and his record so ignored-- he's the Skin's most productive QB over the past ten years or so. I'll always believe Skins fans turned against him in defense of Gibb's incredibly bad decision in bringing in Brunell.

Frankly, our gang tackling Ramsey in conscious or unconscious defense of our 'Hall of Fame" coach was childish and unworthy.

[RayNAustin]

Ya know, lots of you keep quoting my text, but apparently not reading it.

I'm not suggesting that Campbell needs to put up Brady or Manning type numbers right now. What I am saying is that he is behind where he should be at this point, production wise, and from the looks of it, he never will be one of the elite QB's in the league regardless of time and experience.

When you look at the early careers of many top notch QB's (Manning, Brady, Favre, Palmer, Romo) ALL of them played either decently or very good in their 1st seasons, and extremely good in their second seasons. Brady, Manning, Romo, Favre actually played great right from the start.

Contrast that to Campbell who has gone from mediocre to marginally bad in his first two seasons on the field.

When Brunell was benched last year, his QB rating was 86.5 Campbell finished the year with a 76.5. Campbell this year is at 77.6 (not much difference), and his TD's percentage is way less this year, while the turnovers have increased dramatically. Last year in 7 games he had 10 TD's, 6 int's, 1 fumble, 0 fumbles lost. This year after 13 games he has 12 TD's 11 int's, 13 fumbles, 8 fumbles lost. That's 12 TD's and 19 turnovers compared top last year's 10 TD's and 6 turnovers.

THAT IS NOT PROGRESS. That is not the signs you want to see from someone you expect to be a franchise level QB. How in the world can ANYONE look at those numbers and say he is progressing just fine? Where in those numbers do you see such promise that just a bit more experience and playing time has you so convinced he's inches away from turning the corner and being a terrific QB?

There is a big difference between faith and foolishness.

And in case you still don't get it, let's look at Patrick Ramsey's numbers from his first 20 games (and he didn't have a year and a half on the bench learning) First 20 games 23 TD's 17 int's 10 fumbles lost.

(First 20 Games Played)
------------TD's-------INT's------Fumbles Lost
Ramsey 23 17 10
Campbell 22 17 8

An important point here is that Campbell spent a year and a half on the bench learning and being coached, while Ramsey started 5 games and played in 9 games his rookie year. Couple that with Ramsey having the crap beat out of him in Spurrier's no protect "chuck and duck" system, and it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out that Ramsey would have faired FAR BETTER if given the time, coaching, support, and personnel that Campbell has enjoyed.

Now if this doesn't open your eyes to reality, you have my permission to remain blind, as I can not help you see what you refuse to see.

[RayNAustin]

crazyhorse1, great minds think alike

[BnGhog]

Sorry to mention Ramsey again, but I can't help noticing his production with the Skins was better than Campbell's is now and that he only had about 22 quarters on field-- in other words, about the same as Campbell.
Do I sense a double standard?

Or triple standard. I think it's amazing Ramsey's memory is so tarnished and his record so ignored-- he's the Skin's most productive QB over the past ten years or so. I'll always believe Skins fans turned against him in defense of Gibb's incredibly bad decision in bringing in Brunell.

Frankly, our gang tackling Ramsey in conscious or unconscious defense of our 'Hall of Fame" coach was childish and unworthy.

You can't compair apples to oranges! You are compairing a QB that was asked to throw the twice as much as the other in two different systems. Of course he will have bigger number when he has more attempts.

[BnGhog]

Last year in 7 games he had 10 TD's, 6 int's, 1 fumble, 0 fumbles lost. This year after 13 games he has 12 TD's 11 int's, 13 fumbles, 8 fumbles lost. That's 12 TD's and 19 turnovers compared top last year's 10 TD's and 6 turnovers.

How many fumbles has Portis had this year? Compair that to his entire time in the NFL. Expecially in the first half of the season. You don't think they have anything to do with each other. Hmm, when JC was having two or three fumbles a game so was our running back and Moss fumbled. And almost all of them were behind the line. And this is coincidence?

[BnGhog]

(First 20 Games Played)
------------TD's-------INT's------Fumbles Lost
Ramsey 23 17 10
Campbell 22 17 8

.

Wow Ramsey really was soooooooo much better.

[BnGhog]

You guys keep bringing up the same arguments. "Todd has less experionce", Campbell should be further" And keep pointing, to guys like Heath, and Eli and stying to Jason is no differnet. Like, sure JC has had good games so has Eli, but he's no Payton Manning.

When the fact is you don't know that and we never will unless we play him. You are forgetting all the players that we have let go or traded BEFORE they hit their full potential. That could be the case.


You guys can talk all you want. But you are going by three games! Three games that Todd has something to prove. You think JC might be a bust or an Eli. But there is NO way you can tell IF Collins could keep this up for a entire season. And expecially if he was the named starter with nothing to prove.

IMO, to beat out JC for the starting job, Collins would have to out play JC's good games. You keep only compairing his bad games to TC and not even giving him a chance. This is not what a head coach will do. He will compair their ups and downs. Thus far Collins has'nt had the downs, but, he is trying to prove something, and we can't say "he could have done this all season" when we just don't know.

[RayNAustin]

Last year in 7 games he had 10 TD's, 6 int's, 1 fumble, 0 fumbles lost. This year after 13 games he has 12 TD's 11 int's, 13 fumbles, 8 fumbles lost. That's 12 TD's and 19 turnovers compared top last year's 10 TD's and 6 turnovers.

How many fumbles has Portis had this year? Compair that to his entire time in the NFL. Expecially in the first half of the season. You don't think they have anything to do with each other. Hmm, when JC was having two or three fumbles a game so was our running back and Moss fumbled. And almost all of them were behind the line. And this is coincidence?

What in the heck does this have to do with the price of beans in Boston?

[RayNAustin]

You guys keep bringing up the same arguments. "Todd has less experionce", Campbell should be further" And keep pointing, to guys like Heath, and Eli and stying to Jason is no differnet. Like, sure JC has had good games so has Eli, but he's no Payton Manning.

When the fact is you don't know that and we never will unless we play him. You are forgetting all the players that we have let go or traded BEFORE they hit their full potential. That could be the case.


You guys can talk all you want. But you are going by three games! Three games that Todd has something to prove. You think JC might be a bust or an Eli. But there is NO way you can tell IF Collins could keep this up for a entire season. And expecially if he was the named starter with nothing to prove.

IMO, to beat out JC for the starting job, Collins would have to out play JC's good games. You keep only compairing his bad games to TC and not even giving him a chance. This is not what a head coach will do. He will compair their ups and downs. Thus far Collins has'nt had the downs, but, he is trying to prove something, and we can't say "he could have done this all season" when we just don't know.

First of all, I've never said that Collins is the Redskin franchise savior or long term solution. And I did say that should Collins struggle, I have no problem with yanking him. What I'm saying is that Campbell has digressed, not improved as so many attempt to claim here with nothing but their baseless opinions as evidence, when the FACTS and STATS PROVE otherwise.

Campbell, in 12 1/2 games averaged 18.32 points/game

Collins, in 2 1/2 games is averaging 31.2 points/game

Same team, same Portis, same short receivers, same O-Line, Same Coaches with 2 of the 2 1/2 games ON THE ROAD.

What part of this are you incapable of analyzing?

And for those who want to say that Collins played poor defenses as the excuse. I say BULL. The Vikings are 10th in the NFL in scoring allowed (19.3/g). That is three places better than the Redskin defense ranked 13 at 20.3/g. NYG ranked 14 (20.9), and Chicago ranked 16 (21.5/g), ALL THREE are very close to our defense which is considered by most to be pretty decent.

The only team this year that Campbell put up big points against were the freaking Lions who just so happen to be DEAD LAST in the NFL in points allowed at 27.3/g

Sorry to confuse you with facts.

[Irn-Bru]

Campbell, in 12 1/2 games averaged 18.32 points/game

Collins, in 2 1/2 games is averaging 31.2 points/game

Same team, same Portis, same short receivers, same O-Line, Same Coaches with 2 of the 2 1/2 games ON THE ROAD.

What part of this are you incapable of analyzing?

How about the part that you are cherry-picking stats, not comparing relative sample sizes, assume that "scoring offense" = "quarterback's performance". . .

There are assumptions behind every "objective" argument.

And for those who want to say that Collins played poor defenses as the excuse. I say BULL. The Vikings are 10th in the NFL in scoring allowed (19.3/g). That is three places better than the Redskin defense ranked 13 at 20.3/g. NYG ranked 14 (20.9), and Chicago ranked 16 (21.5/g), ALL THREE are very close to our defense which is considered by most to be pretty decent.

That's why it's important to compare different phases of the game, for example not assuming that "good defense against scoring" automatically = "good pass defense" (or vice versa).

Some sets of statistics appear to support what you are saying, but isn't it odd that objective measurements appear to contradict each other when your opponents in this debate cite them?

Sorry to confuse you with facts.

The facts aren't confusing me, and your presentation of some of them is persuasive. . .but I still find myself feeling empty and sad.

[cleg]

If we win against Dallas...Who's staring in the playoffs?

Reports say Campbell is a week away.

My vote is for Collins. We should put Campbell on IR. Starting him in the playoffs after this run could be devistating if he loses

If we get in, I start Jason. Why not? Let him get the playoff experience in a year where we would not be making a Super Bowl run anyway?

[Deadskins]

Let him get the playoff experience in a year where we would not be making a Super Bowl run anyway?

Why are you so certain we will not be making a SB run? Who in the NFC is not beatable by this current Skins team?

[VetSkinsFan]

Cleg, way to write off the skins.....



Why can't their be support for Collins? I suppose it's a complete coincidence that he came in and our 4 game losing streak was a thing of the past? It's hard to believe that there are so many people who will blatantly DENY the fact that since TC came in, we've had a different looking offense, but I see it here every time I frequent this board. TC is the hot hand, he stays. It would be ludicrous to drop him, especially if he wins this weekend vs the 'boys. Regular season with no playoff contention (hello last year) and week 17 potential 6th seed in the playoffs is COMPLETELY different, which should garner a different decision matrix. I only see one option, and that's TC until the season's over.....

[Deadskins]

Brady, Manning, Romo, Favre actually played great right from the start.

Um, no they didn't.

[Deadskins]

Campbell, in 12 1/2 games averaged 18.32 points/game

Collins, in 2 1/2 games is averaging 31.2 points/game

Same team, same Portis, same short receivers, same O-Line, Same Coaches with 2 of the 2 1/2 games ON THE ROAD.

What part of this are you incapable of analyzing?

How about the part that you are cherry-picking stats, not comparing relative sample sizes, assume that "scoring offense" = "quarterback's performance". . .

There are assumptions behind every "objective" argument.

And for those who want to say that Collins played poor defenses as the excuse. I say BULL. The Vikings are 10th in the NFL in scoring allowed (19.3/g). That is three places better than the Redskin defense ranked 13 at 20.3/g. NYG ranked 14 (20.9), and Chicago ranked 16 (21.5/g), ALL THREE are very close to our defense which is considered by most to be pretty decent.

That's why it's important to compare different phases of the game, for example not assuming that "good defense against scoring" automatically = "good pass defense" (or vice versa).

Some sets of statistics appear to support what you are saying, but isn't it odd that objective measurements appear to contradict each other when your opponents in this debate cite them?

Sorry to confuse you with facts.

The facts aren't confusing me, and your presentation of some of them is persuasive. . .but I still find myself feeling empty and sad.

Great point, IB! I was going to post something similar:

What I'm saying is that Campbell has digressed, not improved as so many attempt to claim here with nothing but their baseless opinions as evidence, when the FACTS and STATS PROVE otherwise.

OK, What about the most important stat of all, Wins and Losses. What was JC's record last year in starts, and what is it this year? Do you still see regression, or can you see progression?

[VetSkinsFan]

Wouldn't a better performing defense have a little input on that as well? I think our D is leaps and bounds better, which would DEFINITELY help out the W-L percentage.

[RayNAustin]

Brady, Manning, Romo, Favre actually played great right from the start.

Um, no they didn't.

Um, yes they did.

Brady 2001 13 games, 2,843 yards 18 TD's

Manning 1998 16 games 3,739 yards 26 TD's

Favre 1992 13 games 3,227 yards 18 TD's

Romo 2006 10 games 2,903 yards 19 TD's

[RayNAustin]

Oh, let's add campbell's numbers this year....his second starting and third overall

Campbell 2007 13 games 2700 yards 12 TD's

[Deadskins]

Brady, Manning, Romo, Favre actually played great right from the start.

Um, no they didn't.

Um, yes they did.

Brady 2001 13 games, 2,843 yards 18 TD's

Manning 1998 16 games 3,739 yards 26 TD's

Favre 1992 13 games 3,227 yards 18 TD's

Romo 2006 10 games 2,903 yards 19 TD's

Brady is the exception in that list, but what was each of the other team's records in those QB starts for their first season?

[Chris Luva Luva]

You'd think that 13 years of BS would teach Redskin fans that things take time and that you need to gradually improve. Long term is the key, not a 2-3 year window.