What do we do about our starting QB???

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RayNAustin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN. [-o<


The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.


Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.

TC is not a better QB than JC, he has just had more time to learn the game. You make that point in your first paragraph. Jason has had less classroom time than Todd. His ability is unquestionably better than Todd's, he just hasn't had as much experience. He is far more raw than Todd. I'm sure TC wasn't this good at the same point in his career as Jason is at this point in his. Jason is the future, Todd is the now.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

RayNAustin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN. [-o<


The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.


Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.


Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.
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Post by HEROHAMO »

Either way we have a talented backup whoever is starting.

Brunell has to be gone by next season. No way we can pay a third string Qb the money we are paying him.
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Post by Deadskins »

HEROHAMO wrote:Brunell has to be gone by next season. No way we can pay a third string Qb the money we are paying him.

Why not? We are paying big bucks for a lot of guys who aren't even on the team. :shock:
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Post by HEROHAMO »

JSPB22 wrote:
HEROHAMO wrote:Brunell has to be gone by next season. No way we can pay a third string Qb the money we are paying him.

Why not? We are paying big bucks for a lot of guys who aren't even on the team. :shock:


True. Add B. Lloyd to that list.
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Our Starting QB question

Post by SkinsJock »

This thread was about our starting QB. I feel that we should continue with Collins at this time. He has been doing better than we expected and I think Campbell is both recovering and hopefully learning and appreciating what he is seeing can happen on the field.

This coming off-season Campbell better be prepared to do whatever it takes to show that he is as good as Gibbs expected him to be. Campbell has the potential and the physical talents, His only drawbacks right now come from the mental side of his game. We cannot have a QB that turns the ball over - we basically need Collins smarts and knowledge and Campbell's talent.

IF Campbell does not show significant progress in the OTAs and pre-season then he will, in my opinion no longer be our starting QB.

Another thing - I think Collins is probably earning the right to be the back-up here next year but I do not see us with the same 3 QBs as we started this year. A lot of who that 3rd person is going to be decided by Campbell's (hopefully) incredible progress this off season.

Collins continues to start until Campbell can show Saunders and Gibbs that he is ready to play and to play with the same smarts as Collins - in the NFL, great QBs have it or they don't and if you don't have it, no amount of time and starting experience is going to help get it :lol:
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Post by RayNAustin »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.


Not true. Collins came off the bench, cold, hadn't played in years, and has won three in a row. Now you can say what you want about the quality of the opponents, but that's just grasping at air. The Bears and that lousy secondary just held Favre and the Packers to 7 points, and gave them a 35-7 whupping. The NYG always gives us fits, and we haven't beaten them at Giants Stadium since Mosses parted the red sea. The Vikings were on a 5 game winning streak, playing at home, with a chance to clinch a playoff birth with a win over us. So don't make it out like these games were gimmies. Given Campbells performance this year, we would likely have lost at least 1 of those 3 games, and possibly 2, and we would be talking about next years draft instead of this years playoffs.

The bottom line is in the past 7 games, Campbell is 0-4 and Collins is 3-0. We've heard all of the excuses from poor pass protection to receivers being too small, and up until the past three games it was a matter of opinion. Now, we have something to compare, and with the same short receivers, same O-line, same team, Collins is putting 26 points on the board. The math is easy. That is reason enough for Collins to keep the job as long as he continues to play well and win games, be it this year, or next.

This business about Campbell being the starter carved in stone is nonsense. Need I point out that in 6 games this year, the offense has failed to score 20 points, with 5 of those games losses? With better production from the QB position this year, we could be playing Dallas sunday for the title and the #1 seed in the playoffs.

Everyone speaks from both sides of their mouths when it comes to Jason Campbell. Campbell has far more playing time on field than Collins, yet it is Collins classroom study that has allowed him to be more successful? On the otherhand though, God forbid, Jason doesn't need that classroom work, he needs more playing experience? You can't have it both ways.

And with all of the talk of Jason's hard work in the off season, and the tremendous progress he's made, his actual production has declined. His TD % was 4.8 last year, and 2.9 this year, and this is with a team that is playing much better this year on both sides of the ball. Certainly the defense is playing WAY better.

Potential means nothing if it doesn't show up on the field. Ask the NYG, who traded the farm for Eli Manning. After 4 years of "just wait till next year" Eli is still a disappointment, and a marginal QB. By contrast, look at Romo. He is playing lights out, and the Cowboys would laugh if you wanted to swap either Manning or Campbell and a 1st round pick for Romo. Guaranteed.

Ya know, we've heard this "Potential" story many times. We've had Heath Shular who was the next great savior for the franchise...then Patrick Ramsey, both QB's of the future. We've had Westbrook, and Desmond Howard who were going to make us say Art Monk who? We've had Taylor Jacobs who looked like the second coming of Bob Hayes in practice, but couldn't catch a cold on a winter's day come Sunday. Rod Gardner? The list goes on and on.

Of the many things this organization can be faulted for, it is not a lack of patience. The exact opposite is more like it. We reward potential, instead of production. We give big money to unproven players (Brandon Llyod), while NE picks up Randy Moss for a song. We stick with players who don't produce way too long, hoping...praying...coaching...until the blind man in the corner of the stadium screams ENOUGH ALREADY.

And you think, no matter what, no matter if the Redskins pull the miracle of the century, go to the Super Bowl, and beat NE with Collins at the helm, come next year, Campbell should automatically be declared the starting QB?

Given the history of this organization, you might be right. They just might do exactly that.
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Post by SkinsJock »

Now, now! stop beating around the bush - get off the fence and tell us how you truly feel.



well said :up:
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Post by John Manfreda »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN. [-o<


The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.


Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.


Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.

He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.
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Post by Assasin atm »

John Manfreda wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN. [-o<


The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.


Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.


Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.

He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.


Your crazy- i agree he has some problems like you said but to compare him to Ramsey is nuts. Now the game is too quick for Ramsey and he's proved that over and over. If Jason gets decent protection he makes great throws on time in stride. His pocket presence needs to be worked on but it comes with time. If people think he is come in there and put up Manning and Brady or even Farve type numbers right away after 20 sum starts then i hope your never a general manager of anything sports related. He needs time to develop. Constant pressure from an inconsestant O-line does not help your timing in a timing based offense. Its unfair to make a judgement like that after 1.5 seasons at quarterback. And if your expecting a trade with him involved then you are gona be highly disappointed because he's not going anywhere-anytime soon.
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Post by SkinsJock »

Regarding Cambell-
John Manfreda wrote:..He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.


whoa - let's not get carried away here - we are fortunate that Collins came in and did a good job (so far) but that is why he was brought in here - he is very familiar with Saunders game planning and I'm sure that Gibbs and Saunders felt that between Brunell and Collins they would have 2 mentors for Campbell and to back him up. Campbell got injured and Collins is doing what he does - he is our back up QB - I do not think he has shown Gannon type capabilities - he is doing well but the team is playing well together as well - there are a lot of factors to our success - let's not get carried away!

Gibbs and Saunders are very close to what is happening with the QB situation and they might decide to get something for 1 of them this off season but I would be surprised if they moved Campbell and not Collins - I am fairly sure we will have both next year and hopefully our # 3 will be someone to back up Campbell in 2009 :lol:
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Post by Deadskins »

John Manfreda wrote:He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.

:roll:
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Post by Deadskins »

RayNAustin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.


Not true. Collins came off the bench, cold, hadn't played in years, and has won three in a row. Now you can say what you want about the quality of the opponents, but that's just grasping at air. The Bears and that lousy secondary just held Favre and the Packers to 7 points, and gave them a 35-7 whupping. The NYG always gives us fits, and we haven't beaten them at Giants Stadium since Mosses parted the red sea. The Vikings were on a 5 game winning streak, playing at home, with a chance to clinch a playoff birth with a win over us. So don't make it out like these games were gimmies. Given Campbells performance this year, we would likely have lost at least 1 of those 3 games, and possibly 2, and we would be talking about next years draft instead of this years playoffs.

The bottom line is in the past 7 games, Campbell is 0-4 and Collins is 3-0. We've heard all of the excuses from poor pass protection to receivers being too small, and up until the past three games it was a matter of opinion. Now, we have something to compare, and with the same short receivers, same O-line, same team, Collins is putting 26 points on the board. The math is easy. That is reason enough for Collins to keep the job as long as he continues to play well and win games, be it this year, or next.

This business about Campbell being the starter carved in stone is nonsense. Need I point out that in 6 games this year, the offense has failed to score 20 points, with 5 of those games losses? With better production from the QB position this year, we could be playing Dallas sunday for the title and the #1 seed in the playoffs.

Everyone speaks from both sides of their mouths when it comes to Jason Campbell. Campbell has far more playing time on field than Collins, yet it is Collins classroom study that has allowed him to be more successful? On the otherhand though, God forbid, Jason doesn't need that classroom work, he needs more playing experience? You can't have it both ways.

And with all of the talk of Jason's hard work in the off season, and the tremendous progress he's made, his actual production has declined. His TD % was 4.8 last year, and 2.9 this year, and this is with a team that is playing much better this year on both sides of the ball. Certainly the defense is playing WAY better.

Potential means nothing if it doesn't show up on the field. Ask the NYG, who traded the farm for Eli Manning. After 4 years of "just wait till next year" Eli is still a disappointment, and a marginal QB. By contrast, look at Romo. He is playing lights out, and the Cowboys would laugh if you wanted to swap either Manning or Campbell and a 1st round pick for Romo. Guaranteed.

Ya know, we've heard this "Potential" story many times. We've had Heath Shular who was the next great savior for the franchise...then Patrick Ramsey, both QB's of the future. We've had Westbrook, and Desmond Howard who were going to make us say Art Monk who? We've had Taylor Jacobs who looked like the second coming of Bob Hayes in practice, but couldn't catch a cold on a winter's day come Sunday. Rod Gardner? The list goes on and on.

Of the many things this organization can be faulted for, it is not a lack of patience. The exact opposite is more like it. We reward potential, instead of production. We give big money to unproven players (Brandon Llyod), while NE picks up Randy Moss for a song. We stick with players who don't produce way too long, hoping...praying...coaching...until the blind man in the corner of the stadium screams ENOUGH ALREADY.

And you think, no matter what, no matter if the Redskins pull the miracle of the century, go to the Super Bowl, and beat NE with Collins at the helm, come next year, Campbell should automatically be declared the starting QB?

Given the history of this organization, you might be right. They just might do exactly that.

Ray, you make some good points, but you also make some statements that are false. You keep saying that Jason has far more game experience than Todd, but that is not true. Todd started for a full season earlier in his career. Jason is just now arriving at the same level of in-game experience. Then you say that everyone is talking out of both sides of their mouths about classroom work being necessary too, like the two are mutually exclusive. At the same point Jason is in his career, Todd was not nearly the QB that he is today. Over the past 10 seasons, Todd has learned to read defenses, and has learned AS's playbook inside and out. Given the same amount of time, I have no dobt that JC will surpass what we are seeing from TC now.
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JSPB22 wrote:Given the same amount of time, I have no dobt that JC will surpass what we are seeing from TC now.


I worry that after Campbell starts to learn Saunders offense, Saunders will be gone.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

Of the many things this organization can be faulted for, it is not a lack of patience. The exact opposite is more like it. We reward potential, instead of production. We give big money to unproven players (Brandon Llyod), while NE picks up Randy Moss for a song. We stick with players who don't produce way too long, hoping...praying...coaching...until the blind man in the corner of the stadium screams ENOUGH ALREADY.


You're nuts if you think that this team doesn't lack patience. When was the last time that the organization actually allowed a young qb the time needed to develop? This franchise is known for signing veteran free agents, and not young players. At least up to this point building through the draft hasn't been the focus of the Skins. So I have no idea where you are getting your ideas from. You mention Lloyd but conveniently ignore the long list of overpriced veterans that the Skins have signed in order to "win now" instead of actually building a team the way the Patriots and Colts have.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

Not true. Collins came off the bench, cold, hadn't played in years, and has won three in a row. Now you can say what you want about the quality of the opponents, but that's just grasping at air. The Bears and that lousy secondary just held Favre and the Packers to 7 points, and gave them a 35-7 whupping. The NYG always gives us fits, and we haven't beaten them at Giants Stadium since Mosses parted the red sea. The Vikings were on a 5 game winning streak, playing at home, with a chance to clinch a playoff birth with a win over us. So don't make it out like these games were gimmies. Given Campbells performance this year, we would likely have lost at least 1 of those 3 games, and possibly 2, and we would be talking about next years draft instead of this years playoffs.


None of that changes the fact that all three of those secondaries are terrible. The Bears, Giants, and Bills all give up over 225 yards a game through the air.

Everyone speaks from both sides of their mouths when it comes to Jason Campbell. Campbell has far more playing time on field than Collins, yet it is Collins classroom study that has allowed him to be more successful? On the otherhand though, God forbid, Jason doesn't need that classroom work, he needs more playing experience? You can't have it both ways.


You are aware that Collins has played in over 40 NFL games, right? Campbell has played in 20. Collins has also had 13 years worth of training camps and practices so he has plenty of experience. He has also been in the same offense for most of his career.

Campbell needs both classroom work and on-field experience. He isn't going to improve that much just by sitting on the bench.

And with all of the talk of Jason's hard work in the off season, and the tremendous progress he's made, his actual production has declined. His TD % was 4.8 last year, and 2.9 this year, and this is with a team that is playing much better this year on both sides of the ball. Certainly the defense is playing WAY better.


What exactly is the point of this? If you can't see that JC has improved from last season to this season I'm not sure if it's even worth discussing this with you anymore. Just about every NFL analyst has commented on Jason's growth as a player....Riggins, Jaws, Sonny, Ray Brown, BMitch, Lavar, Theismann, etc. I somehow doubt that all of them are just making stuff up.
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Post by RayNAustin »

JSPB22 wrote:Ray, you make some good points, but you also make some statements that are false. You keep saying that Jason has far more game experience than Todd, but that is not true. Todd started for a full season earlier in his career. Jason is just now arriving at the same level of in-game experience. Then you say that everyone is talking out of both sides of their mouths about classroom work being necessary too, like the two are mutually exclusive. At the same point Jason is in his career, Todd was not nearly the QB that he is today. Over the past 10 seasons, Todd has learned to read defenses, and has learned AS's playbook inside and out. Given the same amount of time, I have no dobt that JC will surpass what we are seeing from TC now.



With all do respect, I'm making no false statements. All of the talk about Collins familiarity with Saunders offense is very misleading, and I'm correcting the record. Prior to the past three games, Collins has had a grand total of 27 passing attempts in regular season NFL games over the past 9 years. He has never before started a game under Saunders, and spent the entire time at KC holding a clipboard with the exception of those 27 pass attempts spread out in brief relief appearances.

You must be referring to his 1995-96 experience at Buffalo perhaps? I don't think you can actually use that as some huge advantage over Campbell, experience wise, can you? I'm talking about real game experience with Saunders system here in the modern era of football, hahaha, in this most recent decade.

Collins has 2 starts, and 3 games compared to Campbell's 20 games, along with all of the off season work and reps with the first team in OTA's, preseason, and during this season. So I stand by my statements as accurate and true. Campbell has far more game experience than Collins who has spent the majority of his career as a backup that never got a chance to play.

But either way, it is splitting hairs. Brunell has more experience than both Collins and Campbell combined, but that doesn't make him the better choice at the moment.

And I totally agree with John Manfreda's assessment of Campbell's progress so far, though I would not necessarily advocate trading him unless someone offered something outrageously irresistible, and then it would be a difficult decision.

I don't think we've reached the point of writing Campbell off just yet, but it does bother me that after all of the off season work and study, and the support around him that he is showing signs of digressing. In the two most important areas....scoring and protecting the football, he hasn't improved at all. And it's a very valid point to be weary of his slow reads and casual release at this point, and he DOES NOT hit receivers in stride very often. Slow reading defenses, slow release, slow learning the offense, and trouble with accuracy is not the recipe for greatness.

You just never know when it comes to QB's. Jeff George is a classic example of someone with all the talent in the world but would kill you with mistakes. He was one of the best passers I've ever seen. Was a flame thrower....but come decision time, he could just drive you nuts. Ramsey, though not quite as talented, had all of the physical skills to be a first rate QB too, but would throw that horrible pic at the worst possible time, leaving everybody scratching their heads saying...."why does he continue to do that?"

Whether or not these deficiencies in Campbell can be cured with time and experience is the real question. Right now, the only honest answer is who really knows? Maybe, maybe not.

As for what we've seen so far with Collins......his accuracy and quick reads is unbelievable considering how little he has played. I mean, let's be honest here, the guy has spent almost 10 years riding pine, and he comes in cold and plays like this?

Shouldn't we assume that he'll only improve with more playing and practice time as is so often said about Jason? Collins is 36, but without the wear and tear of a career starter, so he could easily perform at his current level for 2-3 years. Look at Favre, and Garcia, and Kitna (two out of three in the playoffs).

George Allen said it best. The future is NOW.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

Shouldn't we assume that he'll only improve with more playing and practice time as is so often said about Jason? Collins is 36, but without the wear and tear of a career starter, so he could easily perform at his current level for 2-3 years. Look at Favre, and Garcia, and Kitna (two out of three in the playoffs).


Limited wear and tear or not, Collins is still going to be 37 at the start of next season. I don't know about you, but I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable with a 37 year old qb being our starter for more than a few games, let alone for the 2-3 years that you mention. Yes Favre is having a great year, but he isn't exactly your typical 38 year old. As for Kitna, he has 18 picks and 17 fumbles this season so you probably don't want to be mentioning him as a successful qb.
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Post by RedskinsFreak »

RayNAustin wrote:George Allen said it best. The future is NOW.
No, the playoffs are NOW. The future has to wait.

JC's present skill set is not sufficient for insertion into a playoff atmosphere -- especially one that will be entirely on the road.

In December 2007, TC runs this offense better than JC. Will Jason improve? Every sign suggests that he will.

But at playoff time, 'will' doesn't matter. It's foolish to approach the playoffs as a 'chance to learn.' You have to go with who's better NOW. Potential takes a backseat until the OTAs.
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Post by RayNAustin »

CanesSkins26 wrote:

What exactly is the point of this? If you can't see that JC has improved from last season to this season I'm not sure if it's even worth discussing this with you anymore. Just about every NFL analyst has commented on Jason's growth as a player....Riggins, Jaws, Sonny, Ray Brown, BMitch, Lavar, Theismann, etc. I somehow doubt that all of them are just making stuff up.


The point of this is exactly POINTS, as in Campbell's failure to put them on the board. As in winning games, which, the last time I checked, was the whole point and nothing but the point.

Now maybe you should explain to me this point of yours.....where is the improvement? His points are down and his turnovers are up. How is that considered improvement?

Look, we were on a 4 game losing streak, with the previous 2 losses due to our inability to score. 20 points would have won both of those games.

After 27 minutes of the first half against the Bears, we still hadn't scored a SINGLE POINT. (If the Bears are so bad, why hadn't Campbell taken advantage of that lame secondary you claim is the reason for Collins success?) Campbell was injured with less than three minutes remaining in the half, and Collins comes in, and immediately drives us to a score. In the second half, he takes the opening drive for another score. In the end, we score 24, and win. The previous two weeks we scored only 13 points against Tampa, and 16 points against Buffalo. Same receivers that are too short for Campbell. and the same O-Line that couldn't pass block for Campbell suddenly begins to play?

What part of these very straight forward points escapes you?
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

George Allen said it best. The future is NOW.


And please explain where that attitude has gotten this franchise in the last 15 years? It is that type of short sighted approach that has led to many of the problems that this franchise has had, especially under Snyder. It is the quick fix approach and a total unwillingness to go through an actual building process that has led to many losing seasons. The goal is to have a team that can compete year in and year out (see New England, Indy, Pittsburgh) and not just make the playoffs once and then suck for 3-4 seasons.
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Post by chiefhog44 »

RayNAustin wrote:
JSPB22 wrote:Ray, you make some good points, but you also make some statements that are false. You keep saying that Jason has far more game experience than Todd, but that is not true. Todd started for a full season earlier in his career. Jason is just now arriving at the same level of in-game experience. Then you say that everyone is talking out of both sides of their mouths about classroom work being necessary too, like the two are mutually exclusive. At the same point Jason is in his career, Todd was not nearly the QB that he is today. Over the past 10 seasons, Todd has learned to read defenses, and has learned AS's playbook inside and out. Given the same amount of time, I have no dobt that JC will surpass what we are seeing from TC now.


With all do respect, I'm making no false statements. All of the talk about Collins familiarity with Saunders offense is very misleading, and I'm correcting the record. Prior to the past three games, Collins has had a grand total of 27 passing attempts in regular season NFL games over the past 9 years. He has never before started a game under Saunders, and spent the entire time at KC holding a clipboard with the exception of those 27 pass attempts spread out in brief relief appearances.

You must be referring to his 1995-96 experience at Buffalo perhaps? I don't think you can actually use that as some huge advantage over Campbell, experience wise, can you? I'm talking about real game experience with Saunders system here in the modern era of football, hahaha, in this most recent decade.

Collins has 2 starts, and 3 games compared to Campbell's 20 games, along with all of the off season work and reps with the first team in OTA's, preseason, and during this season. So I stand by my statements as accurate and true. Campbell has far more game experience than Collins who has spent the majority of his career as a backup that never got a chance to play..


You wrote in your original post that Collins has less playing experience than JC. You can't just start taking seasons away from him to prove your point. Your statement is false. You could refrase it and say he has more game experience than JC with Saunders, and I think you would be correct. He in the right in correcting you.

RayNAustin wrote:And I totally agree with John Manfreda's assessment of Campbell's progress so far, though I would not necessarily advocate trading him unless someone offered something outrageously irresistible, and then it would be a difficult decision.

I don't think we've reached the point of writing Campbell off just yet, but it does bother me that after all of the off season work and study, and the support around him that he is showing signs of digressing. In the two most important areas....scoring and protecting the football, he hasn't improved at all. And it's a very valid point to be weary of his slow reads and casual release at this point, and he DOES NOT hit receivers in stride very often. Slow reading defenses, slow release, slow learning the offense, and trouble with accuracy is not the recipe for greatness.


No thanks on trading him. Trade Collins is more like it. Get something for a 36 year old...absolutely. Trade a 24 year old with raw talent and only a full year of starting in the NFL...no way.

Trust me when I tell you that once this kid knows the offense like Collins does, his reads will get quicker, and he'll be able to get to the third and fourth read like Collins does. His awareness in the pocket will then develop and as a result, the fumbles will disappear. Hitting his receivers in stride is often a result of being uncomfortable in the pocket. He does not trust himself yet to make the throws because he does not have the full understanding of the offense. To tell you the truth, it's not the offense that he has to learn, it's the defense that he has to learn and be able to make a connection to the offense that he is running.

Take the interception against Ronde Barber in TB, Ronde set up the play as though he was playing man to man against the slot receiver (although throughout the game he set up like this and transitioned into a cover two zone with deep corner coverage). Campbell read this and thought he was playing the way he had all game. Once the ball is snapped, Barber should sprint back and pick up the deep corner. Well, it didn't work that way, and as the ball was snapped, he shifted over to play the flat and picked the ball off. He's a pro-bowler who set up JC. But he'll learn from this. He better not make that pass again. Pump it and and look to your outlet, or throw it out of bounds.
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Post by SkinsJock »

Never trust someone who says "trust me" :lol:
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by John Manfreda »

Assasin atm wrote:
John Manfreda wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN. [-o<


The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.


Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.


Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.

He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.


Your crazy- i agree he has some problems like you said but to compare him to Ramsey is nuts. Now the game is too quick for Ramsey and he's proved that over and over. If Jason gets decent protection he makes great throws on time in stride. His pocket presence needs to be worked on but it comes with time. If people think he is come in there and put up Manning and Brady or even Farve type numbers right away after 20 sum starts then i hope your never a general manager of anything sports related. He needs time to develop. Constant pressure from an inconsestant O-line does not help your timing in a timing based offense. Its unfair to make a judgement like that after 1.5 seasons at quarterback. And if your expecting a trade with him involved then you are gona be highly disappointed because he's not going anywhere-anytime soon.

Ur right it is nuts Ramsey had a quicker release.
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Post by John Manfreda »

Assasin atm wrote:
John Manfreda wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.

Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.

Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN. [-o<


The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.


Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.

When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.


Because JC is the qb of the future for this team whether people like it or not. This team is heavily invested in JC and the only other qb on the roster who isn't in his last year or two in the NFL is Hollenboch (who will likely be cut as soon as JC is back).

Collins has had 1.5 nice games against awful secondaries. But the fact remains that he is old (36 years old) and has a very weak arm. JC was playing well for someone at his stage of development, despite being asked to do more than what most young qb's are expected to do, and has the physical tools to be a very good NFL qb. All he needs is some more experience. He wont get the type of experience that he needs sitting on the bench. If the coaches feel like he is their future guy then there is no doubt in my mind that he is going to be the starter next season.

He's not playing well for his stage of devolopment, u need an hour glass to time his release (and that is not correctable), he isn't quick mentally (that is not correctable), he never hits his recievers in stride, Ramsey was playing better in year 3 than Campell was now (his year 3). I hate to bring up Ramsey but the reason I am brining him up is becasue, the same mistakes Ramsey made Campell also makes, and as we can see there not correctable. Collins is our Qb and we learned Campell does not have it, trade Campell after the season while his value is high and lets get more than a 6th round pick for him.


Your crazy- i agree he has some problems like you said but to compare him to Ramsey is nuts. Now the game is too quick for Ramsey and he's proved that over and over. If Jason gets decent protection he makes great throws on time in stride. His pocket presence needs to be worked on but it comes with time. If people think he is come in there and put up Manning and Brady or even Farve type numbers right away after 20 sum starts then i hope your never a general manager of anything sports related. He needs time to develop. Constant pressure from an inconsestant O-line does not help your timing in a timing based offense. Its unfair to make a judgement like that after 1.5 seasons at quarterback. And if your expecting a trade with him involved then you are gona be highly disappointed because he's not going anywhere-anytime soon.

In year 3 Ramsey was playing a lot better than Campell and he was coached by Spurrier for two years. Campell doesn't have it, he is not even as good as Ramsey lets trade him while his value is high and move on.
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