Williams is the Best Option for Future Coach

bwdjr · Post by **bwdjr** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:50 pm

I think that maybe we should stop taking Williams for granted. Who said that he want to be a Def Coord. for another few years when he could get a head job ?

Assasin atm · Post by **Assasin atm** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:11 pm

SkinsFreak wrote:
chiefhog44 wrote:Coordinators call the game... Not true with Gibbs in the last couple years. He's putting in his $.02 at bad times. Head coaches lead in today's ball.

<snip>

-but if you were satisfied with a great coordinator as a head coach-

If I understand you correctly, and I'm not 100% confident that I do, are you saying head coaches don't call the games, only coordinators do?

Offensively speaking, who then calls the plays in towns like: Philly, Minnesota, Tampa, Miami, San Diego, Seattle, Baltimore, Denver or New Orleans?

Assasin atm wrote:Theres gonna have to be an obvious coaching turnover after gibbs is done and no matter who the new coach is (even if its williams) there will be changes to different things. Williams has head coaching expieriance and Gibbs is not his mentor so he's not gona do things the same as Gibbs. If we are going to make a change- it might as well be to the best coach available to run this team succesfully and thats Bill Cowher.

Obvious coaching turnover? If Gibbs takes on a role in the front office and Williams / Saunders becomes the head coach, what turnover are you referring to? The same coaches and schemes will remain. The only change would be in job titles.

The point I'm trying make refers to continuity, or the lack there of over the past decade.

The best coach available to run this team "successfully" is Cowher? Are you serious?

Yeah i am serious- Cowhers record speaks for itself. Williams is great as a defensive coodinater- but as a head coach- he is proven not get the players vote of confidence. I know things can change and its a different situation here but that has to speak volumes. Look at Norv Turner- he has been given many oppurtunities in many different situations but still always the same mediocre result. I know Williams isnt Turner (thank god) but personally i would feel better with a proven leader such as Cowher. Ill buy your continuity point but to make an omelat (?) you have to break a few eggs. Im willing to deal with taking a step back to make huge strides a couple of years down the line.

riggofan · Post by **riggofan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:05 pm

I wouldn't mind seeing Williams as HC. He seems pretty no nonsense which I like. You have to think he's hungrier than Cowher too. He has a lot more to prove.

Also, I think you guys are greatly exagerating what a failure GW was in Buffalo. That was a bigtime rebuilding job he took up there for a small market team without a lot of money and terrible options at QB.

And you can't POSSIBLY claim Williams is unable to motivate players. What???? He can motivate players on defense but is unable to motivate guys on offense? That is just a ridiculous thing to say.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:12 pm

Are you suggesting that Williams ran the offense in Buffalo? Rolling Eyes

No Williams was not in charge of the offense. But as head coach he was responsible for the entire team, and that includes the offense. If the offensive coordinator wasn't getting the job done Williams should've done something about it. Additionally, a head coach sets the tone of the entire team. If the offense was overly conservative Williams could've stepped in and told his OC to be more aggressive.

What was the Bills defense like when he was there? Did the defense suck too? Rolling Eyes

Actually his defense was very inconsistent while he was in Buffalo. In this three years are head coach the defense was ranked as high as 2nd and as low as 21st.

Most NFL coaches WERE coordinators before they became head coaches. Belichick is a defensive coach, for example, as is Wade Phillips.

You're right about that. But Belichick also sets the tone for his entire team. He has a very aggressive philosophy and that carries over into their offense. If he didn't like their offense running 4 and 5 wide receiver sets on a regular basis they wouldn't be doing it.

How did Jimmy Johnson do with the Dolphins after winning a National Championship at the U and a Super Bowl in Dallas? The point is, it doesn't matter how great of a coach you are if you don't have the talent in the locker room to execute your system on the field. This was the case with Johnson in Miami and was the case with Williams in Buffalo.

Apples and oranges. Johson had a winning record with the Dolphins (26-21) and won a playoff game. Williams was 17-31 with the Bills. At this point I would love a coach that could pull a 26-21 record with the Skins over a 3 year period.

Williams record and resume for fielding great defenses speaks for itself, and not one of you fools can suggest otherwise. We have a good offensive coach and players. There is no evidence, anywhere, that suggests Williams can't succeed with those components.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Williams can't succeed as head coach. For starters, his tenure is Buffalo showed that he has a lot of improving to do. Secondly, his defense has been inconsistent while he has been here. Thirdly, his player evaluation skills are suspect. Williams incorrectly assumed that Marshall could play in the middle. He stubbornly stuck with Holdman as a starter despite tons of evidence suggesting Holdman didn't even deserve a spot on the bench. He is the one that pushed for signing Archuletta and then sat him on the bench for most of the season. Additionally, Williams is the one that had problems with Lavar and Arch, and the way he treated those players concerns me when it comes to his ability to be a good head coach. Lets also not forget that his vaunted defense was ranked 31st in the NFL last season.

So for me there is more evidence suggesting that he can't hack it as a head coach than there is to suggest that he can get the job done.

I think some of you have conveniently forgotten that Gibbs and Williams inherited a Steve Spurrier team. With 2 games left in the regular season, we still have a chance to make the playoffs. That would be 2 playoff appearances in 4 years for Gibbs and staff, after taking over a team left by Spurrier. But I guess that ain't good enough for some of you. Rolling Eyes

And our record under Gibbs/Williams isn't much better than it was under Spurrier. Besides, the Spurrier argument is pointless and just shows that you are grasping for straws. Williams and Gibbs have their players in place and still aren't able to win. How many of the players that were on last season's 31st ranked defense were here when Spurrier was the head coach??

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:15 pm

Anyone who does not see that some progress has been made since Gibbs came back is not really a very good judge of the current NFL or just frustrated and anti everyone who has anything to do with running our team

We were in dire starights and now are in the process of getting better and have a fairly full draft, plus, I am sure we will be active in the free agent market again, next year.

We do need some more pieces but we are not that far out of it really - we have shot ourselves in the foot a lot this season but the team is very close to being one of the better NFC teams - we lost close games that we could have won to Dallas and to Green Bay - they are not that much better IMO

Can you imagine how good our defensive backfield would have been next year with ST?

BTW - If Gibbs did not think that Williams was doing a very good job in Buffalo I wonder why he went up there to try and persuade him to come here to coach? He also offered him the opportunity to be the next HC when Gibbs left - that was an indication of what he (and Snyder) thought about this guy.

Assasin atm · Post by **Assasin atm** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:29 pm

SkinsJock wrote:Anyone who does not see that some progress has been made since Gibbs came back is not really a very good judge of the current NFL or just frustrated and anti everyone who has anything to do with running our team

We were in dire starights and now are in the process of getting better and have a fairly full draft, plus, I am sure we will be active in the free agent market again, next year.

We do need some more pieces but we are not that far out of it really - we have shot ourselves in the foot a lot this season but the team is very close to being one of the better NFC teams - we lost close games that we could have won to Dallas and to Green Bay - they are not that much better IMO

Can you imagine how good our defensive backfield would have been next year with ST?

BTW - If Gibbs did not think that Williams was doing a very good job in Buffalo I wonder why he went up there to try and persuade him to come here to coach? He also offered him the opportunity to be the next HC when Gibbs left - that was an indication of what he (and Snyder) thought about this guy.

He also spent and gave up alot to get Brandon Lloyd, Adam Archuleta just to name a couple and how did they work out. Its been well documented by fans, media and alot of people on this site that joe gibbs buisness decisions have not been the greatest. So that argument really doesnt hold much water in my book. Either way im positive dan snyder and joe gibbs will put the best person for the job in the succesive HC position and thats good enough me. Even though my personal opinion is that i want it to be Bill Cowher- but thats just my opinion.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:20 pm

SkinsFreak wrote:
chiefhog44 wrote:Coordinators call the game... Not true with Gibbs in the last couple years. He's putting in his $.02 at bad times. Head coaches lead in today's ball.

-

If I understand you correctly, and I'm not 100% confident that I do, are you saying head coaches don't call the games, only coordinators do?
:

What I'm saying is that all Williams has proven he can do is coordinate the defense. He has failed at leading a team.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:48 pm

Last I heard Williams has a "deal" to be the next HC after Gibbs - has anything changed or are we just hognosticating the possibilities here? Now, Williams may choose to go elsewhere but I would think all indications are that he will stay and then decide in 2009 whether he wants to be the next HC or stay and be the DC again.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:00 am

Assasin atm wrote:... Its been well documented by fans, media and alot of people on this site that joe gibbs buisness decisions have not been the greatest. .

Nobody is infallible and yes he and his team have made mistakes, but this guy has been trying his hardest to get this team out from under a pile of you know what that was not of his making. We are almost there, why throw away the progress?

Maybe I'm reading different things here (and in the media which I think knows a lot less than a few here at THN do anyway) - you may think that Gibbs has not done a good job but my opinion is that most people that know anything think that Gibbs has done a good job and there is a really big percentage that want him to be here to finish what he started.

There is no head coach that could have accomplished what Gibbs has done given all the circumstances - hopefully we will see him finish what he has begun.

truskinsfan18 · Post by **truskinsfan18** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:53 am

To the people who think he would be a bad choice: Dont you think this shortsighted view by the organization/fans is what has put our franchise in turmoil for so long??? Count how many coaches/quarterbacks we had in the span between Gibbs 1.0 and Gibbs 2.0....Yeah we should bring in a new coach :roll:

welch · Post by **welch** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:34 am

I think it's pretty well documented that player decisions fail often. Anyone want to look at Bobby Beathard's draft/trade record? Anyone care to find and consider the Redskins' 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks since about 1971 (beginning of George Allen) until now?

Some players don't make it. Happens with every team. Over the years, we have seen that Gibbs

- will cut a mistake, even if the mistake was an expensive free agent

- keeps players who have attitude, which, for Gibbs, seems to mean that they work hard physically and mentally, and usually play a bit above their raw talent.

- has no patience for players who loaf. See, for example, Stan Humphries -- the most talented QB he had during his first stretch.

HEROHAMO · Post by **HEROHAMO** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:19 am

I suppose so.

After all continuity should be a good thing. I just hope it is positive continuity.

The only gripe I have with Williams is letting Lavar go.

Other than that he seems to have a sound football mind. Solid defensive schemes. I also hope he can make adjustments when necessary.

The worst game he had was against New England. Terribly called game. Also the Dallas game was badly called. Should have ordered a double team on T.O.

Other than that he is very solid considering all that has transpired this season.
He was very close to Sean T. I for one give him my vote of confidence. I secretly hope he welcomes Lavar back. Who knows it might happen?

Anyhow GW is a good coach. I just hope he is humble enough to know that is an ever growing position. You can never learn too much. You should always be striving to learn more as a coach no matter how long you have been in the league.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:23 pm

SkinsJock wrote:Last I heard Williams has a "deal" to be the next HC after Gibbs - has anything changed or are we just hognosticating the possibilities here? Now, Williams may choose to go elsewhere but I would think all indications are that he will stay and then decide in 2009 whether he wants to be the next HC or stay and be the DC again.

As I understood it if he's not the next head coach he gets a $1 million bonus. No way Danny hires him just for that reason.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:41 pm

HEROHAMO wrote: I secretly hope he welcomes Lavar back.
.

No thanks

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:10 pm

truskinsfan18 wrote:To the people who think he would be a bad choice: Dont you think this shortsighted view by the organization/fans is what has put our franchise in turmoil for so long??? Count how many coaches/quarterbacks we had in the span between Gibbs 1.0 and Gibbs 2.0....Yeah we should bring in a new coach

How about hiring an experienced coach who has been there done that from the beginning. That would have solved a ton. We did that a total of ZERO times.

The turmoil happens because of the lack of due diligence done on the people they hire. So, yea, when you bring in a QB or coach who is average at best, there will be turmoil. The worst thing we did was to fire Shottemheimer (sp?). All the others were bad hire's and good fire's.

I'm not sold on Williams being a good hire. Check out his latest interview on redskins.com. He was a total jerk to the media. That kind of pompous attitude is exactly the reason for the revolt in Buffalo among his players.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:10 pm

HEROHAMO wrote:I secretly hope he welcomes Lavar back

Um...by what possible standard is that a secret?

welch · Post by **welch** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:49 pm

Chief wrote

How about hiring an experienced coach who has been there done that from the beginning. That would have solved a ton. We did that a total of ZERO times.

Slow down, there Chief. Vince Lombardi had been there and done that and had the championships to prove that he might be the best ever.

Lombardi began to renovate the team, but only had one year.

George Allen was proven. Invented modern the modern defense, and was so important to the Bears NFL championship (look up the pictures of YA Tittle half-broken in the big game) that George Halas sued LA when the Rams hired him.

Jack Pardee had been a winner at Chicago, as well as one of Allen's two favorite players, and the Redskins' on-field defensive coach.

Joe Gibbs was the young AC experiment. Worked out well.

For the rest, well, I wanted to vomit when Jack Kent Cooke hired the Cowboys genial offensive coordinator to replace Petibon -- Allen's other favorite player and defensive master-mind.

It was a fast downhill from there.

*

Could Williams be a head coach? Some can, some can't.

*

The biggest mistake would be to demolish the coaching staff and scouting organization that Gibbs has built.

*

And...whoever replaces Gibbs, somoe day, has to be able to get the team to play above their individual talents. To play as a cohesive team...as Gibbs always has done.

That was my point earlier: if you can't play team football, if you are selfish and lazy, Gibbs has no patience.

If you try, Gibbs reaches out. Even after you've finished playing. Note well the Barry Wilburn story.

chiefhog44 · Post by **chiefhog44** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:27 pm

welch wrote:Chief wrote
How about hiring an experienced coach who has been there done that from the beginning. That would have solved a ton. We did that a total of ZERO times.

Slow down, there Chief. Vince Lombardi had been there and done that and had the championships to prove that he might be the best ever.

Lombardi began to renovate the team, but only had one year.

George Allen was proven. Invented modern the modern defense, and was so important to the Bears NFL championship (look up the pictures of YA Tittle half-broken in the big game) that George Halas sued LA when the Rams hired him.

Jack Pardee had been a winner at Chicago, as well as one of Allen's two favorite players, and the Redskins' on-field defensive coach.

Joe Gibbs was the young AC experiment. Worked out well.

For the rest, well, I wanted to vomit when Jack Kent Cooke hired the Cowboys genial offensive coordinator to replace Petibon -- Allen's other favorite player and defensive master-mind.

It was a fast downhill from there.

*

Could Williams be a head coach? Some can, some can't.

*

The biggest mistake would be to demolish the coaching staff and scouting organization that Gibbs has built.

*

And...whoever replaces Gibbs, somoe day, has to be able to get the team to play above their individual talents. To play as a cohesive team...as Gibbs always has done.

That was my point earlier: if you can't play team football, if you are selfish and lazy, Gibbs has no patience.

If you try, Gibbs reaches out. Even after you've finished playing. Note well the Barry Wilburn story.

Bud, before adding your $.02, read the entire thread. I was responding to the years between Gibbs I and GibbsII, and you're response is talking about years before Gibbs I. And I would say all those coaches were good examples of my point, so thanks for making my point even clearer.

Lombardi wasn't around long enough to know if that was good or bad.
Allen was a good Head Coach (Coach of the yr, and a NFC Coastal Div title in three yrs.) with the Rams and then took us to the Super Bowl.
Pardee came in here with poor credentials and didn't do much (3rd in the NFC East each of the three years he was here).
Williams has poor head coaching credentials.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:55 pm

chiefhog44 wrote: ..Williams has poor head coaching credentials.

First of all Gibbs went to Buffalo and wanted to bring him here. IF Gibbs (and Snyder) think Williams is a good fit and will be a good Head Coach, then that is good enough for me - I have a feeling that guy is going to be Williams BUT that will be because Gibbs (and Snyder) think that that is best for this team.

Anyone who thinks they know better than Gibbs about what is good for this team obviously thinks that Gibbs doesn't know what it takes to make a team successful :lol:

And for those who are worried about how well Williams might get on with the media or anyone not directly involved with the Washington Redskins - I could not care less - I think it would be great if he recognizes them at his first press conference as the enemy and tells them that they are all idiots until proven otherwise :wink:

SkinsFreak · Post by **SkinsFreak** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:01 pm

SkinsJock wrote:And for those who are worried about how well Williams might get on with the media or anyone not directly involved with the Washington Redskins - I could not care less - I think it would be great if he recognizes them at his first press conference as the enemy and tells them that they are all idiots until proven otherwise

Exactly. Ever seen a Belickick press conference? How about Bill Parcels addressing the media? How about Gruden?

I love the way Williams handles the media and conducts himself at press conferences. I think he's been saying all the right things and I firmly believe the players respect him for that. Williams connects well with his players, and that's what's important. He was a bit of a disciplinarian in Buffalo but he's not that way anymore. He is passionate and the players respond to him. These are some of the reasons why I believe he will make a good head coach here.

I have yet to see or hear ANY Redskin revolt against the man. In fact, I thinks he's done just the opposite, he's brought them together. And don't give me the LaVar drama. LaVar was disgruntled long before Williams arrived.

And Williams ALWAYS makes an effort to publicly support and respect coach Gibbs. I like the man.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:27 pm

There is something here that I would like to expand upon:-

welch wrote:Could Williams be a head coach? Some can, some can't.

*

The biggest mistake would be to demolish the coaching staff and scouting organization that Gibbs has built.

*

And...whoever replaces Gibbs, somoe day, has to be able to get the team to play above their individual talents. To play as a cohesive team...as Gibbs always has done.

That was my point earlier: if you can't play team football, if you are selfish and lazy, Gibbs has no patience.

If you try, Gibbs reaches out. Even after you've finished playing. Note well the Barry Wilburn story.

If you are a player that is giving 100% and it is not translating to success on the field - Gibbs will cut that player - Gibbs is loyal to a fault BUT only if that player in Gibbs estimation (not the fans OR the stupid media who know nothing about the game anyway) is contributing to the success of the team.

If Manning (Eli, not the great one) were here, Gibbs would have moved him out of here by now, even if he was the first pick in the draft - as welch points out, Gibbs has no toleration for players who just are not contributing.

Gibbs would never have selected him in the first place :lol:

welch · Post by **welch** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:49 pm

Oh, and, incidentally, bud, Jack Pardee was no slouch as a coach. He did well with the Bears, and he began the reconstruction of the Redskins. Remember Monte Coleman, Neil Olkewicz? Other "no name" guys who won SB 17?

The Pardee record: 8-8, 10-6 (missed the playoffs on the Staubach comeback), and 6-10 the year that Riggins sat out and the Skins lost several games on last-second kicks when Mosely hit the uprights (was that the Denver game?).

Tough guy, great defensive coach.

*

Meanwhile, any assistant who cleans out the Gibbs staff, as Turner did, will destroy things.

Look carefully at the last years, and you see that Gibbs has often sacrificed immediate whoopee for the future of the team. Tear that out, and we have another defensive scheme and another offense. Terrible idea.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:39 pm

SkinsJock wrote:There is something here that I would like to expand upon:-
welch wrote:Could Williams be a head coach? Some can, some can't.

*

The biggest mistake would be to demolish the coaching staff and scouting organization that Gibbs has built.

*

And...whoever replaces Gibbs, somoe day, has to be able to get the team to play above their individual talents. To play as a cohesive team...as Gibbs always has done.

That was my point earlier: if you can't play team football, if you are selfish and lazy, Gibbs has no patience.

If you try, Gibbs reaches out. Even after you've finished playing. Note well the Barry Wilburn story.

If you are a player that is giving 100% and it is not translating to success on the field - Gibbs will cut that player - Gibbs is loyal to a fault BUT only if that player in Gibbs estimation (not the fans OR the stupid media who know nothing about the game anyway) is contributing to the success of the team.

If Manning (Eli, not the great one) were here, Gibbs would have moved him out of here by now, even if he was the first pick in the draft - as welch points out, Gibbs has no toleration for players who just are not contributing.

Gibbs would never have selected him in the first place

Then explain the Brunell fiasco.

SkinsFreak · Post by **SkinsFreak** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:03 pm

Endlessly explaining stuff to a select few who appear to get off on ripping the team is old, tired and a waste of time. Your posts are full of negativity, pessimism and endless shots at the team. It's like listening to that little snot nosed kid in the front of the class always whining and complaining about everything. I don't think I can ever recall reading any post from you that contains any amount of positive support for the team. THN should have a forum just for whiners and complainers.

CanesSkins26 · Post by **CanesSkins26** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:20 pm

SkinsFreak wrote:Endlessly explaining stuff to a select few who appear to get off on ripping the team is old, tired and a waste of time. Your posts are full of negativity, pessimism and endless shots at the team. It's like listening to that little snot nosed kid in the front of the class always whining and complaining about everything. I don't think I can ever recall reading any post from you that contains any amount of positive support for the team. THN should have a forum just for whiners and complainers.

I have plenty of positive things to say about the players. It's the coaching staff that I don't have much confidence in. There have been far too many blunders and miscues by Gibbs and Co. over the past 4 seasons for me to feel otherwise. I think that the talent is there for the most part, but the coaching is what is holding this team back. I'm sorry if I don't wear burgundy and gold glasses all the time and senselessly support Gibbs without questioning his moves despite all of the mistakes that he has made.