Brandon Lloyd's future

[Skinsfan55]

I know this seems like it's just out of left field, but in an effort to think about something other than Sean Taylor I was wondering about the make-up of the Redskins next season, and I came across Brandon Lloyd's scouting report on ESPN.com

2007 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 65 | Average Starter
Alert: None

Comment: Acquired in a 2006 offseason trade with the 49ers, Lloyd has a penchant for making big plays. He started 12 of the 15 games he played in last season, averaging 15.9 yards per catch on his 23 receptions. Lloyd has outstanding athletic ability, using his excellent body control and ball skills to make acrobatic catches. He does a good job of using a quick burst to separate from defenders as well as accelerate out of his cuts. He continues to refine his route-running skills, using very efficient movement to run crisp patterns. This precision is also important as he becomes more consistent with timing routes. Lloyd does a nice job of using lateral explosiveness and hands to avoid getting knocked off his release, but due to his average size physical defenders are able to disrupt his routes. Despite his average height he is a good red zone receiver who uses his leaping ability, long arms and soft hands to attack the ball in the air and win jump-ball situations, and he has the awareness to know where he is along the sidelines or in the end zone. A good run-after-catch player, he is very elusive in the open field. Overall, Lloyd is a playmaking receiver with the skills to become an outstanding No. 2 option opposite Santana Moss.

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Obviously he has some maturity issues like missing meetings, and giving full effort, but he is talented and could make the jump he is capable of making.

Do you guys think he'll be back next season? IMO he'll get another chance because he has almost NO trade value right now.

Will he make the most out of his talent or no?

[GSPODS]

The cap hit is not that large. Somewhere around $2.5 Mil, I think. If the Redskins don't want Lloyd they will simply release him.

[BossHog]

He has a substantial roster bonus that kicks in before next season.

Unless the relationship between Brandon and the team changes drastically from what it has been this season... I don't see them paying it. I think they will do what the Redskins do... eat the cap hit... and release him.

I will likely speak to Brandon directly about his future with the team when the season is done. Like it would be surprising if Brandon wanted to leave... players generally like to actually play.

[VetSkinsFan]

I wish the guy would perform, I really do, but I just don't see him excelling here. I hope they cut him and he goes somewhere (AFC) and does good things. I just don't see him as compatible, for whatever reasaon, here in Washington.

[langleyparkjoe]

For some reason, I still to this day wanna see that guy get more passes in his direction. I tried to rationalize with myself about it since we have alot of other WRs but I just like the guy. Maybe its because people are so hard on him but I honestly think we need him. Of course being that we always sign, release, re-sign recievers isn't a good sign for him though. If he doesn't come back, I wish him the best.

[Charm City Sports]

He will not be with the team next year.

[Irn-Bru]

He has a substantial roster bonus that kicks in before next season.

Unless the relationship between Brandon and the team changes drastically from what it has been this season... I don't see them paying it. I think they will do what the Redskins do... eat the cap hit... and release him.

Boss, here's something I've never been able to figure out. When a team like Washington takes a cap hit (this year we've got 4.5 million tied up in Archuleta, for example [I think. . .]), does that mean that they are paying the player that money?

So, for example, Lloyd is due a big roster bonus. Let's say that the Redskins cut him instead. Even though they don't pay that roster bonus, does Lloyd still get the equivalent of the cap hit in a paycheck over the next year?

[tazlah]

Boss, here's something I've never been able to figure out. When a team like Washington takes a cap hit (this year we've got 4.5 million tied up in Archuleta, for example [I think. . .]), does that mean that they are paying the player that money?

My limited understanding (I could be so far off the mark that BH will simply shake his head and wonder why I even tried to answer... but here goes...) is that the player has been paid the bonus, but the amount is spread over the course of the contract. i.e., a 4 year contract, $8 million bonus would hit the cap at $2 million/year, but the player already has the $8MM. I know I will be corrected if I'm wrong.

[GSPODS]

He has a substantial roster bonus that kicks in before next season.

Unless the relationship between Brandon and the team changes drastically from what it has been this season... I don't see them paying it. I think they will do what the Redskins do... eat the cap hit... and release him.

Boss, here's something I've never been able to figure out. When a team like Washington takes a cap hit (this year we've got 4.5 million tied up in Archuleta, for example [I think. . .]), does that mean that they are paying the player that money?

So, for example, Lloyd is due a big roster bonus. Let's say that the Redskins cut him instead. Even though they don't pay that roster bonus, does Lloyd still get the equivalent of the cap hit in a paycheck over the next year?

Bernie Marshall seems to have forgotten more about the salary cap than I ever knew about it, so he's probably the person to ask.

[1niksder]

Boss, here's something I've never been able to figure out. When a team like Washington takes a cap hit (this year we've got 4.5 million tied up in Archuleta, for example [I think. . .]), does that mean that they are paying the player that money?

The money is dead money, the player receive was paid upfront and the cap hit was spread out (prorated) over the length of the contract or 6 years whichever is shorter. Once the player leaves the team all the prorated money becomes due. In other words AA was paid but the bonus money was speard out over 6 years he played one so the Skins had to eat what was left.

So, for example, Lloyd is due a big roster bonus. Let's say that the Redskins cut him instead. Even though they don't pay that roster bonus, does Lloyd still get the equivalent of the cap hit in a paycheck over the next year?

Nope, Lloyd carries a hit from his signing bonus but if he's cut they won't have to pay the roster bonus. If he is paid the bonus then cut he'd get the check and the cap hit would go up.

[1niksder]

Bernie Marshall seems to have forgotten more about the salary cap than I ever knew about it, so he's probably the person to ask.

Someone should tell Bernie Marshall he needs to update the cap chart

[BossHog]

Ok... you're talking about two totally different things.

First off in Archuletta's case... the dead cap is what's left of his signing bonus money... so everything that Taz said was absolutely true... way to go hon, I'm pretty darn impressed that you know more about the cap than Irn-Bru.



... just kidding.

In the second instance, with Brandon, you're talking about a roster onus.... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ENTITY.

Signing bonuses are guaranteed money... the player gets it no matter what because as Taz said... they get that money right away.

Roster bonuses are NOT guaranteed, and if you release a player before the bonus is due... no bonus is paid or owed for.

However... releasing Brandon WOULD mean having to pay what was left of his original signing bonus. If it was before June 1st, then it would all be on the 2008 salary cap, if it was after june 1st (or he was designated a post June 1st cut), they would pay one-year of his pro-rated signing bonus in 2008 and the rest in dead money in 2009.

Simple.

And just to extend one thought... I didn't want to mention it earlier because it would convolute the issue. Signing bonuses CAN sometimes be paid in installments... so the player won't neccessarily get every drop of money up front... but the sentiment is the exact same... the agreement to spread the money out over a time period has NO bearing on the cap whatsoever it is just an agreement. The signing bonus is esentially just that... a bonus for signing the contract... how it is paid and how it affects the cap (pro-rated for the length of the contract) has no bearing on the fact that you owe that whole sum.

[Fios]

Bernie Marshall seems to have forgotten more about the salary cap than I ever knew about it, so he's probably the person to ask.

Someone should tell Bernie Marshall he needs to update the cap chart

I never liked that guy, he's very anti-cup

[BossHog]

Sorry Bernie, I was too long-winded in my response and should have known you'd have answered before I hit enter.

[1niksder]

He did ask you.

[langleyparkjoe]

Ok, so for the lamen (me), is it better to keep him or kick him? Kick or keep people, that's all I need. LOL

[Fios]

Well, I'd say the logical answer is keep him but the Redskins have demonstrated that they have no qualms about spending money and getting (essentially) nothing in return. That's a philosophy that I do not agree with but it's one this franchise has, on occasion, adopted.

[Irn-Bru]

Ok... you're talking about two totally different things.

Sorry, I should have made it more clear. I knew that the Skins wouldn't have to pay the roster bonus if he was cut before it was due. The only thing I was interested can be summed up with these two points:

* Even after a player is gone, sometimes they still count against the cap for the current season.
* I always wondered: does that number mean the Redskins are paying them that money over the year?

From the answers (thanks, everyone) it sounds like, in most cases, the players have already been paid that money, so it's in their bank account, but the team can spread that figure out over several years. (In general).


You were right about my cap knowledge, though, Boss.

[1niksder]

Ok, so for the lamen (me), is it better to keep him or kick him? Kick or keep people, that's all I need. LOL

It's the cap so it's not that cut and dry....

To keep him means paying him another $1.8M before the 08' season starts and making his 08' cap number $4.23M,

Or he can be cut and the cap hit in 08' would be $7.165M ($2.9M more than if he stayed).

Or they could cut him before the roster bonus is due, but claim he's a post June 1st expemtion and he'd only cost $1.833M in 08' this would carry $5.367M into 09'

Anyway you look at it, if he released or traded the Skins will take a hit. They have to decide if first of all if they want to take the hit and if so when.

[BossHog]

Just think of it this way... a signing bonus is a signing bonus... you get it no matter what.

For the ske of circumventing the cap, management came up with a creative way to spend extra money... by offering big bonuses that the team would be allowed to only pay a pro-rated portion of that bonus on the cap.

So by giving the player more guaranteed money, you spread the total hit out because you get the length of the contract to spread it out over.

For REAL simple math... let's say that I sign a 5-year deal with a $5 million signing bonus.

The cap hit for my bonus is $1M a year. Whatever I get in contract salary will also count against the cap, but my bonus counts $1M per. Got it?

So I play for 2 years... and we come to the end of this season... and they decide things aren't working out... they release me. I had $3M that I have received in bonus money that has not been applied to the cap yet.

If the team cuts me before june 1st... they have to pay $3M in cap on 2008's cap totals. If they release me or designate me post June 1st... then the cap hit would be $1M in 2008 (1-year's total pro-ration) and $2M in 2009 (the sum total of whatever's left of the bonus money).

That help a little?

Then this is also important... VIRTUALLY ALL OTHER CONTRACT MONEY IS NOT GUARANTEED. So if you release a player... you don't owe for it.

The signing bonus is the only guarateed money, and that's why it's important that you grasp that part most. Hope this helped a little.

[1niksder]

Ok... you're talking about two totally different things.

Sorry, I should have made it more clear. I knew that the Skins wouldn't have to pay the roster bonus if he was cut before it was due. The only thing I was interested can be summed up with these two points:

* Even after a player is gone, sometimes they still count against the cap for the current season.
* I always wondered: does that number mean the Redskins are paying them that money over the year?

From the answers (thanks, everyone) it sounds like, in most cases, the players have already been paid that money, so it's in their bank account, but the team can spread that figure out over several years. (In general).


You were right about my cap knowledge, though, Boss.

Lloyd's cap hit next year is $4.238M

$605000 in base... gets it all if he's on the team for the first game of the year.
$1M in prorated signing bonus.... was paid two years ago
$833000 in other bonus.... contract had a split signing bonus this money was paid during last off season.
$1.8M roster bonus ... due in April (I think might be March) but will have to be on the team to get it.

So his cap hit is over $4M in 2008 but at most he'll take home $2,405,000 ( most of that being the Roster bonus)

[Skinsfan55]

I thought BH said that his roster bonus for next season is pretty hefty so keeping him would cost more than cutting him, is this correct?

If so, where will we find another receiver?

[BossHog]

I thought BH said that his roster bonus for next season is pretty hefty so keeping him would cost more than cutting him, is this correct?

I NEVER said that... if you're going to cite something I said, please at least take the time to read it.

All I said was that Lloyd was due a big roster bonus and that I wouldn't be surprised if the Redskins decided to release him and eat the cap hit... never once did I say that the cap hit for doing so would be LESS than for keeping him. Big difference.

It'll cost 3M more to RELEASE him than it will to pay the roster bonus and keep him. Had I not watched the Redskins do the same thing to other players, I'd say that it was just stupid and they wouldn't make such an egregious cap decision.

But they have repeatedly, and since they prefer to pay him to sit on the sidelines now, I assume that it's wrong to assume that the Redskins will do what's right for the cap.

So just as likely a scenario is to see BL designated as a post June cut which will allow them to spread the hit out over two years. That means that next year he will cost under 2M instead of over $4... so the Redskins would see a cap relief of $2M... only to see a dead cap number of $5+ million the following season.

We rob from Peter to give to Paul.

And prefer not to think about the fact that when you're paying out $10-$20M in DEAD cap for old contracts... it's just that much less money you have to field your team. Facilitating the need for cheap, often sub-par depth.

So we can't REALLY know whether we see a cap relief or a cap hit until it shakes out and know the timing. Regardless, if we get cap relief in 2008, we get hit pretty hard in 2009 with a $5M zinger.

I don't personlly know why Brandon would WANT to endure another season of this, but I'll ask him myself at the end of the season and wouldn't speculate one way or the other. I would think it would require REAL burying of hatchets as opposed to lip service.

[1Skinsnut]

Boss, here's something I've never been able to figure out. When a team like Washington takes a cap hit (this year we've got 4.5 million tied up in Archuleta, for example [I think. . .]), does that mean that they are paying the player that money?

My limited understanding (I could be so far off the mark that BH will simply shake his head and wonder why I even tried to answer... but here goes...) is that the player has been paid the bonus, but the amount is spread over the course of the contract. i.e., a 4 year contract, $8 million bonus would hit the cap at $2 million/year, but the player already has the $8MM. I know I will be corrected if I'm wrong.

You're right. The cap hit for signng bonuses just spreads out the allocation of the money that was paid up front. Lloyd's roster bonus due next year that is being talked about here has yet to be paid, though. So the cap hit is just for the signing bonus when the new contract was signed. There would be no cap hit for the roster bonus due next year because it won't ever be paid if they cut him before it's due.

[Skinsfan55]

I thought BH said that his roster bonus for next season is pretty hefty so keeping him would cost more than cutting him, is this correct?

I NEVER said that... if you're going to cite something I said, please at least take the time to read it.

I did read what you said, I even read it again just a few seconds ago, and I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to assume that we'd be saving money by releasing BL based on your post.

Granted, you didn't come right out and say it, but it seemed to be implied. Nothing to get bent out of shape about.