Post-Game discussion Thread. Philly vs Joe Gibbs.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I watched the Gibbs Monday presser,and there he goes with the "All of our games, minus 2, have come down to a play or two. And all the rest of our games are probably going to be the same.

I hate that attitude from Gibbs. I have no idea why he feels the need to say that every week. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy with this team. The craziest part about this is that we turn games that we can win by two touchdowns into close games....the Giants game, the Cardinals game (as you pointed out), the Eagles game...it goes on and on.

He knows that he's a loser. At least he recognizes that fact. He's already starting to lose the players who have been voicing their discontent increasingly with each loss.

[skinsfan#33]

I watched the Gibbs Monday presser,and there he goes with the "All of our games, minus 2, have come down to a play or two. And all the rest of our games are probably going to be the same.

I hate that attitude from Gibbs. I have no idea why he feels the need to say that every week. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy with this team. The craziest part about this is that we turn games that we can win by two touchdowns into close games....the Giants game, the Cardinals game (as you pointed out), the Eagles game...it goes on and on.

Because he knows his team is not the most talented team in the league and his players are average at best. He has a defense that couldn't hold a 3 TD second half lead let alone a 2 TD second half lead. (In GW's defense his D is even less talented than the Offense - but he still sucks as a D coordinator)
This team of average and injured players should feel excited that they are still in the playoff hunt. I think Gibbs is doing a good job with what he has to work with. Then again he is the one that got most of these players.
With all of the injuries and questionable talent this team will still pull out 5 more wins and if that happens, Gibbs should be considered for Coach of the year. Face it all of us, including the coaches and players have overestimated the ability of these players.

Someone please provide a rebuttal to this that will change my mind about the lack of talent we can put on the field next week. I would love for someone to make me feel better about the talent we can put on the field against Dallas. Other than RB Dallas is better (much better in most cases) at almost every position.

[DarthMonk]

I watched the Gibbs Monday presser,and there he goes with the "All of our games, minus 2, have come down to a play or two. And all the rest of our games are probably going to be the same.

I hate that attitude from Gibbs. I have no idea why he feels the need to say that every week. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy with this team. The craziest part about this is that we turn games that we can win by two touchdowns into close games....the Giants game, the Cardinals game (as you pointed out), the Eagles game...it goes on and on.

Because he knows his team is not the most talented team in the league and his players are average at best. He has a defense that couldn't hold a 3 TD second half lead let alone a 2 TD second half lead. (In GW's defense his D is even less talented than the Offense - but he still sucks as a D coordinator)
This team of average and injured players should feel excited that they are still in the playoff hunt. I think Gibbs is doing a good job with what he has to work with. Then again he is the one that got most of these players.
With all of the injuries and questionable talent this team will still pull out 5 more wins and if that happens, Gibbs should be considered for Coach of the year. Face it all of us, including the coaches and players have overestimated the ability of these players.

Someone please provide a rebuttal to this that will change my mind about the lack of talent we can put on the field next week. I would love for someone to make me feel better about the talent we can put on the field against Dallas. Other than RB Dallas is better (much better in most cases) at almost every position.

Just for kicks - I'll try:

I can't rebut "not the most talented in the league" since we are not.

Let's go for "average at best."

Offense: Left tackle, left guard, and center are all above average. Right guard and tackle qualify as average and are playing better and better. Our QB has better than average arm strength, mobility, and accuracy (many drops, if they give him more than one long throw a game he's shown great accuracy there too). Our wide outs are average at best. Maybe better than average when healthy. Remember how Moss always attacked the catch and always had another gear when the ball went up? But they are not healthy. Average at best. Our tight end is above average. Our running back is above average and so is our fullback. On pure talent, our offense is above average (LT, LG, C, QB, TE, RB, FB all above average, RG, RT, WRs all average). We run well enough to make the other team adjust which, in theory, opens up the pass. When we play that way (1st half) we score. When we don't (with 2nd half lead) we don't.

Defense: Before injuries I'd say we had 3 starting corners which is an above average situation though all three are average or only slightly above. I guess because they all tackle they are above average. But they're hurt now. The backers are average. Washington is better than that but hurt. We'll see about Rocky but he seems to be at least average. The safeties are definitely above average. I personally think Taylor is the guy to cover Shockey, Whitten, and other "uncoverable" TEs not to mention Randy Moss. Our D line is average at best. When they play their gaps and our corners help support, they are stout against the run. They are not good pass rushers so I'd say the line is average at best. On pure talent I'd say the D is slightly above average - when healthy. The strength is the secondary - which is now officially very banged up.

As things stand this week, Greg Williams will be fielding an average-talent defense at best. Don Breaux will be fielding an above average-talent offense.

This entire concert will be conducted by a coach who is well above average between the final gun on Sunday and the coin flip a week later but well below average between the coin flip and the final gun during any given game. He used to be well above average in both categories.

DarthMonk

[roybus14]

I'll give the "rebuttal" the ol' college try...


IMO, the talent is there enough to win. They've proved it on 2 out of 4 occassions (losses). Those 2 games (NYG and GB) we actually lost, we lost because this HOF HC could not sustain his aggresive play calling the second half. The third game we lost, we lost because the offense couldn't get it going in the first half and the defense finally bent and broke.... And of course you know about the other one (NE).

The talent at the player level is not the problem, it's at the coaching level that's the problem. Right now, outside of Buges, who's really earning their money on the coaching staff? Al never made a true difference because Joe ties him up and locks him away in the closet during stretches of the game. I think that folks are living too much in the past and don't want to come to grips with the fact that Joe don't have it no more. As a Coach, GM, or whatever. He's done, stick a fork in him. He would have been better served to had stepped down for personal reasons at the end of last season. Instead, he's turning into Arturo Gatti, Tittle, Mays, MJ, Clemons, etc. Guys who held on too long and their performance showed it.....

So in closing, people always say things like, "your kids are reflection of you," or "when in Rome, do as the Romans do." Well this team, especially the offense has become a symbol for what their HOF coach is now, 'Dazed and Confused.'

[Bob 0119]

I personally think Taylor is the guy to cover Shockey, Whitten, and other "uncoverable" TEs not to mention Randy Moss.

Not necessarily a a rebuttal, but Taylor can't corver these guys from the first three rows of the endzone seats. We had him playing 30-35 yards deep the entire game. He was closer to the plays when he was in street clothes on the sidelines, than when he was on the field.

We need to get away from the cover 3 and play something a little tighter, I think.

Don't ask me for suggestions, I'm not the expert on Defensive playcalling, but we need to play something that puts more pressure on the recievers and QB's, IMO.

This scheme worked well when everyone was healthy, but now that we have significant injuries at corner, safety and LB, we need to come up with something more complimentary to the strengths of who we have left.

[Fios]

That's not really a reflection of his ability, or lack thereof, to cover those guys (I'd probably take Moss out of there), he plays that deep because of the scheme Williams uses.

[skinsfan#33]

Just for kicks - I'll try:

I can't rebut "not the most talented in the league" since we are not.

Let's go for "average at best."

Offense: Left tackle, left guard, and center are all above average. Right guard and tackle qualify as average and are playing better and better. Our QB has better than average arm strength, mobility, and accuracy (many drops, if they give him more than one long throw a game he's shown great accuracy there too). Our wide outs are average at best. Maybe better than average when healthy. Remember how Moss always attacked the catch and always had another gear when the ball went up? But they are not healthy. Average at best. Our tight end is above average. Our running back is above average and so is our fullback. On pure talent, our offense is above average (LT, LG, C, QB, TE, RB, FB all above average, RG, RT, WRs all average). We run well enough to make the other team adjust which, in theory, opens up the pass. When we play that way (1st half) we score. When we don't (with 2nd half lead) we don't.

Defense: Before injuries I'd say we had 3 starting corners which is an above average situation though all three are average or only slightly above. I guess because they all tackle they are above average. But they're hurt now. The backers are average. Washington is better than that but hurt. We'll see about Rocky but he seems to be at least average. The safeties are definitely above average. I personally think Taylor is the guy to cover Shockey, Whitten, and other "uncoverable" TEs not to mention Randy Moss. Our D line is average at best. When they play their gaps and our corners help support, they are stout against the run. They are not good pass rushers so I'd say the line is average at best. On pure talent I'd say the D is slightly above average - when healthy. The strength is the secondary - which is now officially very banged up.

As things stand this week, Greg Williams will be fielding an average-talent defense at best. Don Breaux will be fielding an above average-talent offense.

This entire concert will be conducted by a coach who is well above average between the final gun on Sunday and the coin flip a week later but well below average between the coin flip and the final gun during any given game. He used to be well above average in both categories.

DarthMonk

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I was referring to the talent we could put on the field the field for most of this year.

I'll take my stab at it like you did. I'm sure we'll differ some, but this is how I see it.

RB and TE well above average
LT, C, and FB above average (Sellers has a hard time hitting a moving target when blocking - but is a beast otherwise)
LG and QB average
RG, RT, WR below average (WR would be average if not for all of the injuries - against Dallas we will field a gimpy Moss and ARE, McCardel(sp?), and Caldwell (Does Lloyd count?))

MLB well above average
S - just above average (this take into account Taylor will be out for a while and Landry is still making rookie mistakes)
OLB - average at best (Rocky had been real disappointing for the past month and Godfrey just isn't Marcus)
CB - Just below average (injuries have hurt here - if all were healthy this is above average)
DL - well below average (They can play the run well enough as long as someone isn't committed to running and then they fold like a cheap lawn chair - can't pass rush a lick) (If Philly had decided to run every play I think Westbrook would have had 300 yards and the Eagles would never have punted - this D is just can not stop him)

Now for your comments on Gibbs, I would love to see how well he could coach if he had a good team - (oh wait, we did he won 3 SBs - I know that was the last time and it is irrelevant now), but even you agree that he has had avergae talent to work with and the team has a winning record right now - sounds like bad coaching to me

Think about what he has had to work with since he came back at QB. An 80 year old QB with a noodle arm, a young QB with a gun that he didn't trust because he threw an INT a game, and now he has a good young QB that telegraphs his throws and is indecisive at times, but has tons of upside. The WR position has been average at best and he made a change to bring in Saunders which he never should have.

The ONLY thing I will bag on Gibbs for is his clock management and we had the same problems under SS, Marty (not as bad but they were there), and Turner.

[VetSkinsFan]

Playcalling in the redzone. Sitting on a 7pt lead. Pisspoor clock/TO management. Conservative influence on playcalling(yes, he's conservative this go-around, and he's admitted that he has an influence on playcalling) to name a few. I couldn't read thru 14 pgs of this so I'm sory if this is repeats.

[skinsfan#33]

I'll give the "rebuttal" the ol' college try...


IMO, the talent is there enough to win. They've proved it on 2 out of 4 occassions (losses). Those 2 games (NYG and GB) we actually lost, we lost because this HOF HC could not sustain his aggresive play calling the second half. The third game we lost, we lost because the offense couldn't get it going in the first half and the defense finally bent and broke.... And of course you know about the other one (NE).

Giants game in anyone of the three plays at the goal line should have scored a TD! The players executed EXTREMELY POORLY.

The GB game was all about drops (either fumbles, dropped passes, and dropped INTS)

The Philly game was all on two things, ey jumping off sides and the fact the D gave up 3 TD in the 4th (one of those four was after the game was lost and actually was a good thing they let Westbrook walk in untouched) The defense sucked all game last week!

[Bob 0119]

That's not really a reflection of his ability, or lack thereof, to cover those guys (I'd probably take Moss out of there), he plays that deep because of the scheme Williams uses.

Yeah, that was indirectly the point I was trying to make....

I should have been more clear on that...my bad.

[RayNAustin]

I'll give the "rebuttal" the ol' college try...


IMO, the talent is there enough to win. They've proved it on 2 out of 4 occassions (losses). Those 2 games (NYG and GB) we actually lost, we lost because this HOF HC could not sustain his aggresive play calling the second half. The third game we lost, we lost because the offense couldn't get it going in the first half and the defense finally bent and broke.... And of course you know about the other one (NE).

Giants game in anyone of the three plays at the goal line should have scored a TD! The players executed EXTREMELY POORLY.

The GB game was all about drops (either fumbles, dropped passes, and dropped INTS)

The Philly game was all on two things, ey jumping off sides and the fact the D gave up 3 TD in the 4th (one of those four was after the game was lost and actually was a good thing they let Westbrook walk in untouched) The defense sucked all game last week!

I couldn't disagree more with the "the defense sucked all game" comment. The defense held Philly to 13 points for three quarters (4 points a quarter).

At the beginning of the second half, we take the KO and drive inside the 10. At 2nd down and 3 from the 7, we can neither convert the 1st down or score, and we settle for 3 points to make it 15-7. That score should have been 19-7. Anyway, Philly scores and makes it 15-13. We drive it again and score making it 22-13. S. Taylor gets hurt goes out of the game. At the beginning of the 4th Q, we have a 22-13 lead (should have been 26-13). That's not bad defense. That's pretty decent defense so far!

With Taylor out of the game, Philly goes deep down the middle of the field (would not have happened with taylor in there) and by a fluke, hits a long TD pass that was off target and behind the receiver who made a great play on the ball. PP had good coverage on the play....this was not some wide open TD from a missed assignment....had the ball not been thrown well behind the receiver PP might well have intercepted the pass. It was a fluke....and not bad defense by our 2nd string Safety. So nor the score is 22-20.

Our next drive, the offense fumbles. Luckily, the very next play from Philly, this TERRIBLE defense forces a fumble and recovers it, giving the ball back to the offense.

The offense drives to the Philly 3, first and goal....and three running plays later, we don't get it in, and again settle for three. That made the score 25-20 (the score should have been at this point 34-20) with 4 minutes left in the game.

So at 25-20, Philly is still hanging around....because the offense couldn't put the ball in the endzone from FIRST AND GOAL FROM THE 3 moments earlier.

Westbrook brakes one....like he does so often which allows Phillly to take the lead, and the rest is history. One important note here is that the last TD by Philly the defense allowed that play....and it was due to a Fumble by the offense deep in our territory. The offense had two opportunities to come back after Philly took the lead, and couldn't move the ball at all.

So, aside from two explosive plays (one of them flukes, and made possible by injury to Taylor) the defense played well. They didn't put up a DOMINANT showing, but they played well enough for us to get the win.

Anybody who doesn't recognize the immense impact of failing to score from first and goal at the 3 with 4 minutes left in the game (as well as the other time inside the 10) is just in TOTAL denial, or is a total idiot. We score a TD there, and this game is over....9 point lead with 4 minute left and Philly with no time outs. Game over.

Could the defense have played better? Sure. That could be said almost any week by any team. Did the defense suck? NFW.

The offense didn't play badly either. They actually played very well. We just had a couple of blown opportunities to score TD's, and put this game away, and didn't.....as we have done three other times this year by various mistakes.

[jeremyroyce]

Hey there guys I'm a little late in responding to this my internet has been down for the past week. Anyways I am frustrated with Joe Gibbs however I am not about to give up on him just yet. Everybody makes some good points, but if Joe Gibbs can just hand over the playcalling to Al Saunders I think we will be fine. Also, if Joe Gibbs is done coaching I would like to see him as a GM.

[DarthMonk]

I personally think Taylor is the guy to cover Shockey, Whitten, and other "uncoverable" TEs not to mention Randy Moss.

Not necessarily a a rebuttal, but Taylor can't corver these guys from the first three rows of the endzone seats. We had him playing 30-35 yards deep the entire game. He was closer to the plays when he was in street clothes on the sidelines, than when he was on the field.

Exactly. The coaches don't seem to think he's that guy but I do. Plus now he's injured anyway.

DarthMonk

[Fios]

That's not really a reflection of his ability, or lack thereof, to cover those guys (I'd probably take Moss out of there), he plays that deep because of the scheme Williams uses.

Yeah, that was indirectly the point I was trying to make....

I should have been more clear on that...my bad.

Nah, I misread it

[ike075]

Where are all those that criticized the coaching staff saying they needed to go? Why are you not applauding the decisions to drop Williams and Saunders?

I for one would have liked to see Williams stay but we have a lot of talent on this team and I think we should have done a lot better this year and the past several years.

Ikester