Change at QB

[welch]

Campbell looks pretty good, but unfinished. Skip the statististics. I say this as the guy who, at around 10 years old, argued stubbornly that Eddie LeBaron was a better QB than Johnny Unitas because The Little General was the leading QB in the NFL, at least by the way that the NFL then rated QB's. (For the stat-infatuated, it used to be total yards divided by attempts).

Campbell looks calm, he throws well, he has an arm.

He is not, and we should not expect him to be, Sonny Jurgensen. Maybe Washington has been spoiled by having the first great QB in the NFL, and later having the best passer ever? Remember when the RFK crowd cheered because Kilmer had been hurt, which, everyone knew, forced careful-George-Allen to put Sonny in the game?

Campbell is not, and probably will never be Sonny. No one throws like Sonny (for the young 'uns, when Dan Marino came into the league, he was praised as having almost as quick a release as Sonny Jurgensen.)

QB's take a while to learn. As I said on another thread (and isn't this becoming a repetitious topic ?), the only young Redskin QB's with Cambell's skill were Jay Schroeder, Mark Rypien, and Stan Humphries. They all stepped into one of the half-dozen strongest teams in the NFL.

I'll repeat, in case it didn't take effect:

- Schroeder became famous for replacing Joe T after the injury and being so innocent that he immediately bombed the almighty Giants with a 45 yard completion. Art Monk caught that pass, and we won't see Monk's equal for a long time. Gary Clark or Rickie Sanders would have been the other WR, and Clint Didier would have been then H-back if they were in the base formation. George Rogers probably was at RB, unless Gibbs had replaced him with John Riggins or Kelvin Bryant.

That's a lot of talent, probably more than on any NFL team today (compared to the teams they were playing in 1985...and, come to think of it, those skill players would burn people if they were the same age and playing today)

- the OL would have included Jacoby, Grimm, Bostic, probably Raleigh Mackenzie, and we call them The Hogs. Again, a lot more talent than you'll find in today's NFL.

Rypien and Humphries inherited the same team.

Stats, therefore, don't allow an accurate comparison.

Of those three QB's, all of whom took a team to the NFC Championship or the Super Bowl, Schroeder had a tendency to use his arm more than his head: he threw hard into tight places, and got intercepted...later he seemed to throw harder and lower...grounders. Rypien was always a bit clumsy, and he fumbled so often that Gibbs intended to replace him with Humphries. Stan, of course, didn't study his play-book, which seems to be why he didn't play a down in '91, and was exiled to San Diego.

I watch Campbell, and, sure, I wish he picked out a receiver quicker, but he seems better than Ramsey. He runs better than Brunell does now. It's hard to compare him with Collins, but I assume that if Collins really had it, he would have started now and then.

Campbell had a strong OL last year and could depend on Betts. It is more chancy this year. Meanwhile, the WR's have not magically improved.

As a thought-experiment, imagine Jay Schroader trotting onto the field that night without Monk, Clark, Sanders, and Didier. Without the Hogs. Replace the three WR's with a pair of pretty good small WR's. Imagine that Bostic is playing hurt, that May is out, Mackenzie is out, and the backups are playing hurt because they are better than the backups to the backups.

Anyone want to assume that Schroeder would stun that Giants defense, or even some of the weker teams they played?

[RayNAustin]

I disagree. This team so far is very predictable and consistent. The only surprise was the Detroit game that the defense was able to shut them down completely, and our offense responded in turn.

Otherwise, we've been very consistently mediocre, squeaking by several teams with lousy records. Those kinds of teams find a way to lose, and we were the beneficiary of that.

Two overtime wins. 1 was the very first game of the season against an 0-8 team, and the other one was the 8th game of the season against a 1-7 team. This shows me that we have NOT progressed. We've simply benefitted from a weak first half schedule. The second half isn't even close to being weak.

Philly has a decent defense, and can be explosive on offense, and they usually give us all we can handle.

The Cowboys will crush us if our offense plays the way it has, both games.

So will the Giants....they're playing outstanding on both sides of the ball right now with a 6 game winning streak.

The Vikings just crushed the Chargers. And Tampa isn't someone we can look past either.

And the Bills gave the Cowboys fits. The Cowboys were lucky to win that game by 1 point

So we have a monster schedule coming up that we must go 6-2 to secure a wild card spot, when we could easily be looking at 3-5 or worse given our performances thusfar against teams with decent records.

No... Jason Campbell has so far not shown me he is capable of matching up against good teams. with good QB's He's 7-8 as a starter, and if it were not for some good fortune and excellent defense, he could be 4-11.

He's never played Dallas. He's 0-2 against the Giants, and 1-1 against Philly.

Jason Campbell has won exactly 2 games against teams with winning records out of the 15 games he's played so far. TWO

Tomorrow Jason Campbell had better have his breakout game, otherwise the Redskins have two choices.....yank him, or write off 2007.

Anyone willing to take off their burgundy colored glasses should be able to see this.

[RayNAustin]

Lol, look at VY's numbers.

JC makes plays. That's all that matters. We're 5-3.

I hate that most Skins fan's don't appreciate things.

See this is what happens when you engage your mouth before you put your brain in gear.

Vince Young didn't sit on the sidelines for a year and a half. He started in his true Rookie season. He's 14-10 as a starter, won Rookie of the Year last year, and went to the pro bowl.

Hardie Har har.....look at VY's numbers indeed.

[RayNAustin]

The best way for Jason Campbell to establish himself and to justify this faith he seems to be afforded is to beat Dallas next week.

This week, the defense can probably hold Philly to 14 points, allowing a win without an outstanding offensive performance. But next week, we will not win unless Jason comes of age, and puts up good NFL type numbers like two or three TD's.

[CanesSkins26]

Yea let's bench Campbell. But if he deserves to be benched then so does Rabach, Fabini, Wade, Moss, Randle El, Thrash, Sellers, etc. Hell lets just bench the entire offense.

[joedondero1919]

Yea let's bench Campbell. But if he deserves to be benched then so does Rabach, Fabini, Wade, Moss, Randle El, Thrash, Sellers, etc. Hell lets just bench the entire offense.

you forgot gibbs, saunders, etc...

[die cowboys die]

has nobody mentioned the fact that he has been playing the past few games with an injured finger on his throwing hand?

this was mentioned only once very briefly by the sideline reporter during one of the games (i think it was during the AZ game, and they said it happened during the green bay game if i remember correctly), but has gotten absolutely no mention or attention since then, which i don't get.

obviously i can't remember the details very well but i'm absolutely positive i'm not making this up and my wife affirms that she saw this as well.

i don't know how serious/minor it was, but he was starting to look VERY sharp, very accurate for the few games right before that, then suddenly, in the AZ, NE, and NYJ games he magically regressed and looked way off-target on a lot of throws.


i am completely convinced it's because of the finger, and i even wonder if gibbs & co have limited the passing game since then as a consequence of that. why else would they shut it down after the young QB just had the 2 or 3 best games of his career? and i'm talking about his level of play, not his stats-- please recall that he played exceptionally well against GB and probably had literally 200 yards worth of passing negated by drops (including a huge bomb to moss), total BS penalties (PI on thrash when he got MUGGED and then got a deep one on the left sideline), and an utterly ludicrous BS "interception" that was inarguably and unmistakably a completion to randle el (both players came down with equal possession, which BY RULE goes to the offense). campbell played great and in a game we "lost" by a field goal, he did his part to put us in field goal range THREE TIMES just in those 3 plays right there- let's not even talk about all the shorter drops that killed drives.

we all know how good he was against detroit. we have tempered that by saying "yeah but it was detroit" and that's fine- but you can't take away that he was very accurate and dropping the ball in perfectly between the LBs and the secondary on many throws.

campbell hit a perfect bomb to moss early in the giants game, and once gibbs was forced to pull his head out of his butt, JC did an outstanding job throwing during the 2-minute drill, getting us to the 1, from where we should have scored, obviously.

he made some critical plays to keep drives alive in the eagles game, aside from throwing perfect bombs to moss and cooley (who dropped it). yes he overthrew moss on that potential game-clincher but every QB throws 2 or 3 deep balls a game.

even in the miami game, he hit randle el on a couple good deep balls and made some very nice throws.

yes, he has also had some bad "rookie mistake" INTs and has had an occaisonal (but NOT consistent) problem with losing the ball when he gets hit. but that comes with the territory of a rookie (he is just finishing up his 1st 16 games).

when i look at what he was doing earlier in the year and the steady improvements he made each week, i remember not to worry. i remember that this kid is good, and is going to be good for us for a long time.

[SkinsHead56]

Yea let's bench Campbell. But if he deserves to be benched then so does Rabach, Fabini, Wade, Moss, Randle El, Thrash, Sellers, etc. Hell lets just bench the entire offense.

you forgot gibbs, saunders, etc...

No kidding if anyone needs to loose his job its Gibb, Saunders & Buges. If we are going to talk out of the sides of our necks then Gibbs should be fired if this team misses the playoffs. The only guy on offense earning his keep is Pete Kendall so everyone else should ride pine.

[welch]

Ray said

I disagree. This team so far is very predictable and consistent. The only surprise was the Detroit game that the defense was able to shut them down completely, and our offense responded in turn.

Otherwise, we've been very consistently mediocre, squeaking by several teams with lousy records. Those kinds of teams find a way to lose, and we were the beneficiary of that.

Yes, predictable, consistent, and probably playing above their individual talent-levels. Beginning the season, he OL was good but thin, the WR's lacked a big-play big receiver (no, for the thousandth time, and in spite of what Dr Z says, Art Monk was ten times more than merely a short pass "move the chains" guy).

Saunders and Gibbs want to win...not "put up numbers". Given that, they have coached Campbell well. He's not an experienced QB, but he's getting exerience.

He doesn't get rattled. He avoids some big hits and he can run when he needs to, while Ramsey was as tangle-footed as Rypien. Difference, to repeat, is that Rypien had the Hogs blocking for Roger and Bryant. Campbell has a broken OL, and Gibbs/Saunders/Bugel have worked the right-side backups to be as good as possible. Further, the offensive coaches sprang Lorenzo Alexander (6-1, 311 pound DT) at TE to strengthen the right side.

Clearly, Gibbs, Saunders, and Bugel are thinking...much harder than the sports news gossip columnists.

He certainly throws...and if you are as old as I am, you remember Norm Snead. Campbell can throw as deep as Snead, and, unike Stormin Norman, Campbell does not try to beat coverage by throwing his bullet-pass harder into a tiny opening.

Since we've seen our fair share Redskin QB's, my humble opinion is that Campbell will develop into a very mobile version of Mark Rypien.

Thinking of Gibbs' regular QB's, that seem like his ideal. Joe T had spark and quick football thinking -- consider Joe's "pass defense" in the Dolphins game when he leaped inside the paws of a big defender to swat down his pass that had been batted into the air. You don't plan that. But Joe could not throw deep like Dan Fouts, or Jay Schroeder, or Mark Rypien.

As a fan, I want the team to play above their talent. That comes from agonizing through the Norv years, and remembering what George Allen got with his crew of mean old mis-fits. Likewise, from remembering the announcers' astonishment as they listed the players who won SB 17. (In what round did they draft Joe Jacoby, Jeff Bostic, Neil Olkeiwicz, Rick Walker, Monte Coleman, Mark Murphy, Daryl Grant?)

[Deadskins]

Lol, look at VY's numbers.

JC makes plays. That's all that matters. We're 5-3.

I hate that most Skins fan's don't appreciate things.

Yeah SR84, why would you possibly compare JC to VY? Could it be that it's because, despite "going to the Pro-Bowl" last year, he has 3 TDs and 8 INTs this season? And he started as a rookie, so he has all of this great game experience to draw on!

[RayNAustin]

You aren't seriously suggesting that Jason Campbell is a better QB prospect than Vince Young are you?

The best way to explain my view of JC is to compare two other well known fellows with the same last name.

Peyton and Eli Manning. If you were from another country and knew nothing about pro football....didn't know the statistical and practical differences between the two....and you just watched them both....listened to them in interviews, etc. you'd pick Peyton hands down. Peyton has that special "something" where as Eli is misssing "something".

However, Eli has come a long way, and when you reveiw his numbers from the second season forward, they're pretty solid numbers, far better than JC's thusfar. I feel similarly that JC like Eli is missing that "something" that great QB's have.

I think Eli, and Campbell will prove out to be decent QB's, but not on par with the type of game changers that you'd like to have at the QB position.

[riggofan]

I'm so sick of hearing about how great Vince Young is. His stats suck but he is on a pretty decent team.

Campbell has 100 yards and 2 TDs so far this half against the Eagles. Clearly, we need to consider benching him.

[riggofan]

Ooops. Another toss to McCardell in the end zone. TD #3.

What is Campbell even doing on the field? He's no Vince Young. Somebody call up Todd Collins!

Sorry I'm really enjoying this.

[LORD GIBBS]

PLEASE GO JUMP OFF A BIG BRIDGE!

[LORD GIBBS]

[quote="Justice Hog"]I may take a hit for saying this, but I think it's something that needs to be said.

I don't think we can put all the blame on our WRs for their lack of productivity this year. Some of the blame, I think, really needs to fall on JC.

The Eagles defense struggles against the pass.

If JC has another mediocre week, I think it's time this team puts Mar Brunell or Todd Collins back in there.

There, I said it.Ok Im going to say this"GO JUMP OFF A BIG BRIDGE. Thanks

[VetSkinsFan]

I think it's a combo of everything mentioned. Should we bench him? Heck no. There's NO good coming out of that. He's still got potential. If 1/2 of this site can believe in BRANDON LLOYD, then why can't we believe in JC? Today's loss was the DEFENSE, NOT THE OFFENSE.

[Bishop Hammer]

I may take a hit for saying this, but I think it's something that needs to be said.

I don't think we can put all the blame on our WRs for their lack of productivity this year. Some of the blame, I think, really needs to fall on JC.

The Eagles defense struggles against the pass.

If JC has another mediocre week, I think it's time this team puts Mar Brunell or Todd Collins back in there.

There, I said it.

Jason Campbell is doing a fine job, given the recievers he has to work with. He threw three touchdown passes against the Eagles and due in large part because Gibbs wasn't calling the plays...Campbell was calling them! The offense is to conservative and not daring enough due to Gibbs not wanting to take a risk and wanting to control the clock. It is not a coincedence that when Gibbs was not calling the shots the offense opened up and looked halfway decent.

Given that Campbell is not all that experienced he looks extremely good when he is playing. If he had started more games last year maybe the offense would be better than it currently is now.

[welch]

...Just a reminder of the way things go here. Were we serious?

[SkinsJock]

After watching the 1st qtr I would not mind seeing changes made at QB, RB and WR - this team has no players that have earned the right to not be pulled when they make mistakes.

ey is awsome - we should see how many players we can get for him - he should be worth a few decent players - OH that's right we don't need players !!!!!

[wormer]

Sorry Boss. I have to disagree w/ you.

QB is a position where you learn by doing.

JC needs to stay the QB for the rest of the season then we can reevaluate.

Who needs to go is coach Joe. Joe Gibbs is no longer the coach he once was.

He has effectively wasted 2 seasons by his horrible decsion to start Brunell last season.

LAST year should have been JC's learning year.

Instead, he wasted last year and this year.

Joe need to gracefully exit at the end of this season.

[grampi]

I may take a hit for saying this, but I think it's something that needs to be said.

I don't think we can put all the blame on our WRs for their lack of productivity this year. Some of the blame, I think, really needs to fall on JC.

The Eagles defense struggles against the pass.

If JC has another mediocre week, I think it's time this team puts Mar Brunell or Todd Collins back in there.

There, I said it.

You're joking, right?

[crazyhorse1]

As George Allen would say....the future is now.

With regard to personnel decisions, we always hear from the coaches that they start the players that give the team the best chance to win. They don't say we need to develop such and such player.

Last year, Brunell was replaced not because of horrible play, but because the season was lost at that point, so it made good sense to get JC in there to evaluate him and give him some game experience. And he did fairly well through his first 7 starts, which provided a certain expectation for this year.

But let's remember, Brunell's QB rating was 86.5 and his completion rate was 62.3. when he was replaced. Campbell's QB rating ended up 76.5 with a completion rate of 53.1.

This year, Campbell is not doing as well....his rating is down 74.8, TD's down(6), int's up (7), and 8 fumbles compared to just 1 last year. His completion percentage is up slightly (the only improvement) but that is likely due to all the short passes this year.

Now there are folks here with a big list of excuses why JC's numbers are down. Injuries to the receivers and o-line, dropped balls, poor production from receivers etc, etc., ANYTHING but poor play from the QB. But the fact is, beginning last year and continuing into this year, receivers numbers are down across the board. TD's are way down.

The common denominator here is the QB. You can blame the receivers, the o-line, play calling, and whatever else, but the QB is responsible for getting the ball to the receivers, and it ain't happening.

The last three games, JC's numbers are particularly PATHETIC. , two games against not very good teams. The inability to get the ball in the endzone against the Jets was not the o-line, and was not the receivers, and it certainly wasn't the running game.

Against Arizona he threw 12 completions for 95 yards, 0 TD's 1 int, and a passer rating of 56.5 and 1 sack.

Against NYJ 12 completions 142 yds 0 TD's 1 int, passer rating of 53.2, and 1 sack.

Three games this year he has failed to throw a TD. Four games he has thrown only 1 TD, and only once has he thrown 2.

He has fumbled in 4 of the 8 games. Twice he has fumbled 3 times in a single game.

He has more fumbles 8 and More ints 7 than TD's 6 That totals to 15 turnovers to 6 TD's.

A FREAKING STAR IS BORN!! Benching him would be beyond stupid....how?

The point is, if Brunell or Collins were the QB with such poor results, you all would be SCREAMING to have them yanked.

I'm not saying get rid of Campbell. He has much potential....but he isn't there yet. And if we do have legit problems with injuries and so forth, what positives can be gained by continuing to watch him flounder?

I say give him the philly game to show something. If he continues the poor play, and we are behind at the half, yank him and put in Brunell. Get Brunell some stick time to prepare for Dallas. If we lose to philly, we are certainly going to lose at Dallas which would make us 5-5 and OUT OF THE RACE for the division title, and 1 more loss away from being out of the playoffs.

You don't sacrifice a season to get a young QB game experience. You put the best guys on the field that give you the best chance to win each week. Right now, it's highly questionable that JC is the guy who gives us the best chance to win.

Ask the Cowboys who they'd prefer to face next week...Campbell or Brunell. I promise you most would say Campbell. They never want to see Brunell ever again after 2005.

I can't imagine a more deranged post. Brunell's decent pass completion percentage came as a result of endless dinks and he was benched last year because he was a horrible player who gave us zip chance to win. His lack of arm was also destroying our running game. Everyone was packing the line against him and he was a national joke.

Another national joke is Gibbs' failure to turn Campbell loose and that ridiculous term, "Redskin football." Virtually every time Gibbs is persuaded to foget that comcept, Campbell comes up with big yardage. In case you didn't tnotice, he was over 300 yards again today.

Campbell has made three costly interceptions in two straight games. He's also put us in position to win two straight games, in spite of almost incrediblly bad play by teammates. We'll be only as good as he is for the next few years. Brunell and Collins are through.

[madman]

bottom line we need to go out and get a receiver in the offseason that is over 6 foot. we are so limited when we get in the red zone, we cant just throw the ball up and let somebody go get it. i say go get fitzgerald or the next big thing or find somebody in the draft.

[HitDoctor]

I may take a hit for saying this, but I think it's something that needs to be said.

I don't think we can put all the blame on our WRs for their lack of productivity this year. Some of the blame, I think, really needs to fall on JC.

The Eagles defense struggles against the pass.

If JC has another mediocre week, I think it's time this team puts Mar Brunell or Todd Collins back in there.

There, I said it.

You're an idiot. There, I said it.

[Justice Hog]

You're an idiot. There, I said it.

Way to honor the board rules there, Ace.