What offense works without a decent OL?

[welch]

...Just to make the question clear.

I have read, again and again, that the Redskin coaches should "open up" the offense. How can they do that without an OL?

It is repeated endlessly that a lineman has an easier time run-blocking because they get to kick-out and hit people. It is harder, takes more experience, more skill, better foot work, to protect the passer because the OL must fall back. They have to cover all the rushers, coordinate with each other, move backward, pivot, take the inside route, and counter-charge just at the right moment, if they can.

Example: Joe Jacoby could flatten Lawrence Taylor on a run play, but Taylor usually got around Joe J on passes. Lachey was more nimble, and also got his 295 pound body between Taylor and the QB. Quicker feet, good sense of the play, good positioning.

Therefore, what kind of bombs-away passing game can work with a broken down OL?

Too many people talk as if it were just a matter of saying, "Jason, throw long" and, presto chango the problem is solved.

Where's the evidence that this can work?

[dmwc]

I see what you are saying... But it can work and we will see on Sun... CC, MS and CP will be in to help block so maybe we can hit those IN and OUT routes for 5, 7 11 yrds. Hope Moss, ARE, KM and JT are ready

[crazyhorse1]

...Just to make the question clear.

I have read, again and again, that the Redskin coaches should "open up" the offense. How can they do that without an OL?

It is repeated endlessly that a lineman has an easier time run-blocking because they get to kick-out and hit people. It is harder, takes more experience, more skill, better foot work, to protect the passer because the OL must fall back. They have to cover all the rushers, coordinate with each other, move backward, pivot, take the inside route, and counter-charge just at the right moment, if they can.

Example: Joe Jacoby could flatten Lawrence Taylor on a run play, but Taylor usually got around Joe J on passes. Lachey was more nimble, and also got his 295 pound body between Taylor and the QB. Quicker feet, good sense of the play, good positioning.

Therefore, what kind of bombs-away passing game can work with a broken down OL?

Too many people talk as if it were just a matter of saying, "Jason, throw long" and, presto chango the problem is solved.

Where's the evidence that this can work?

Item 1: It's much easier to pass block than run block. Pass blocks fail much less often than do run blocks, which have a failure rate of higher than 50% and require more teamwork, coordination, and timing. Pass blocks are relatively uncomplicated on the line and sacks are relatively rare. Most sacks, in fact, are caused by missed assignments and blitzes, or are coverage sacks. Sacks in the SS era were caused by SS's indifference to rushers, not our OL. The players, even our old, experienced guys, are too good to give up many sacks . Not going to happen. Sacks will not cost us this game. To go with the running game gives us no chance.

Item 2: When we talk about letting Campbell play, we are not talking about just one bomb after the other. Campbell should throw every type of pass to every possible receiver.

[CanesSkins26]

...Just to make the question clear.

I have read, again and again, that the Redskin coaches should "open up" the offense. How can they do that without an OL?

It is repeated endlessly that a lineman has an easier time run-blocking because they get to kick-out and hit people. It is harder, takes more experience, more skill, better foot work, to protect the passer because the OL must fall back. They have to cover all the rushers, coordinate with each other, move backward, pivot, take the inside route, and counter-charge just at the right moment, if they can.

Example: Joe Jacoby could flatten Lawrence Taylor on a run play, but Taylor usually got around Joe J on passes. Lachey was more nimble, and also got his 295 pound body between Taylor and the QB. Quicker feet, good sense of the play, good positioning.

Therefore, what kind of bombs-away passing game can work with a broken down OL?

Too many people talk as if it were just a matter of saying, "Jason, throw long" and, presto chango the problem is solved.

Where's the evidence that this can work?

For starters, the current line apparently feels more comfortable pass blocking than run blocking. Jason Fabini said the following:

"I thought the pass protection was pretty good, but we've got to get something going in the run game," guard Jason Fabini said.

Additionally, while there was some pressure on JC, he did have a decent amount of time to throw the ball. And it's not like they have to air it out and chuck the ball deep on every play. Run some play action. JC is mobile so move the pocket and have him roll out. Call some three step drops and short passes. Slants. Wide receiver screens. We saw either very little or none of the things I just listed. Even Joe Gibbs admitted they were too conservative and should've taken more shots down the field.

And if the coaches don't feel comfortable throwing the ball downfield then at least mix up the offense a little bit to keep the defense off balance. Unless the Cardinals defense is totally incompetent they had to know what was coming on most plays in the game. In the second half we had 9 first down plays and we ran on 8 of them. These were the results:

2 yard loss
2 yard gain
2 yard gain
No gain
No gain
No gain
4 yard gain
3 yard gain

The one time that we threw on first down in the second half we gained 26 yards. So clearly the passing game was working some of the time. No offense can be successful in today's NFL with that kind of predictability. And one other thing, the linemen that we threw in there are not rookies or guys that we just signed. Pucillo, Wade, and Fabini have been here for a while now so if the coaches ever stop calling plays scared they should be able to buy JC enough time to at least have a decent passing game.

[dmwc]

Yep we should let JC play... the kid can run and throw... let him do what he does JOE!

[Snout]

Where's the evidence that this can work?

I think the evidence is in the first half of games. We seem to do better in the first half when we are passing more. JG said in the press conference this week that when you come out at halftime, there is a big difference between how you see the game when you are down 14 points compared to up 14 points. And how well the defense is playing also affects how you develop a second half strategy. When our guys play well in the first half and build a lead, JG is more likely to run in the second half, especially if the defense is playing well. That's what he said in the press conference. Well, what are the results? We suck in the second half, plain and simple. We suck. Our offensive linemen can play this game. Our backups can do an adequate job . . . if we let them.

[sch1977]

I think you must throw the ball downfield, if nothing else than to open it up. If we continue to throw WR screens and dump passes, the safeties will continue to creep closer and closer to the line of scrimmage. By throwing deep on occasion, we will keep them in the secondary where the belong and hopefully free Portis or Betts to get some good yardage on the ground.

[SkinsJock]

While some teams can set up the run game with the pass almost all teams that want to be able to pass the ball have to convince the other team that they are capable of gaining 4-7 yards at any time with the run game. IF you cannot convince the defense that you can do that you are going to have a tough time being effective on offense.

At this stage we need to get lucky with our play selection on offense and that is not a great formula for success.

[Redskin in Canada]

While some teams can set up the run game with the pass almost all teams that want to be able to pass the ball have to convince the other team that they are capable of gaining 4-7 yards at any time with the run game. IF you cannot convince the defense that you can do that you are going to have a tough time being effective on offense.

At this stage we need to get lucky with our play selection on offense and that is not a great formula for success.

Balance, balance, balance ...

If we cannot run, we cannot pass and vice versa.

The Redskins need to control the game and the clock. The -only- way in which this is going to happen is with a combination of runs and short passes to move the ball and keep Brady out of the field. The correctly executed screen passes at the right time will help.

But we need to score a bunch of points and that will not happen without some mid- to long distance passes. We need to keep them honest with these passes because they might decide to start with 7 or even 8 men in the box.

Interestingly, I would start running and sending some short passes but soon after that, and still in the first series, I would send a couple of long passes to keep them honest and away from the box. You do not want them to seat comfortably predicting the next play.

Guys, let me shock you even more: I EXPECT a decent pass protection from this OL. We will develop a plan to run against them. I have more confidence in Joe Bugel than most of you do.

[roybus14]

Couple of thoughts:

1. I agree that these guys filling in are not rookies or that inexperienced. They will get it together.

2. The only thing that Gibbs and Saunders need to do is tweak what we do in the first half a little to keep the defense off-balance in the second half and keep it rolling.

3. The team we are playing on Sunday has shown in seven games that you don't necessarily have to run to set up the pass. Their running game is not that good this year due to injury so Brady is just dropping back and chucking it. So what are the Pats WRs doing to get open that our's aren't?? Outside of Moss who is a "freak of nature", the other WRs are not as good as what we got. The only reason why they are shining over our's is because that are getting more opportunities than our's...

4. To help with pass protection, they can put in either Sellers or Yoder in to block and still have ARE, Moss, ey, and Portis as receiving options. Besides, sunce Portis is your best blocking back, then why not use him to block and go four wide with ey, ARE, Moss, and Lloyd. You have your line and Portis blocking for you.

5. "Trickeration". No I don't mean gadget plays. Run formations that look like we are running and just before the ball is snapped, send Portis in motion to the slot. Give teams our run look or pass look and do the opposite. Change things up with like one poster said, three step drops; quick slants; etc.

6. Al Saunders lead offenses in the past did pretty decent against the Pats and other opponents. It strikes me as funny how alot of people think that Al's offense is mostly pass or gadget plays when LJ and Priest Holmes were well over 1,000 yards each season they were healthy and played in Al's offense. His QB's were successful in the passing game in his offense too. Trent Green and Elvis Grbac. But yet, folks look at Al's offense like it's something really bad.....

[Countertrey]

So what are the Pats WRs doing to get open that our's aren't?? Outside of Moss who is a "freak of nature", the other WRs are not as good as what we got.

WHAT???? I suggest you do a little more research. Currently, their #3 is as productive as our #1. I see nothing to suggest that they "are not as good as what we got".

[HEROHAMO]

As it stands our receivers still have much to prove, as far as being consistent receivers.

Comparing our recievers to the Pats, hum... come on now they are playing at a level that is record setting. Brady has thrown 27 touchdowns, that is by far the most in the first seven games of the season. Brady will probably shatter Mannings record of 49 touchdowns for one season. So there recievers are playing at a level that none of our receivers have reached yet. Moss already has ten tds this season and is amongst the lead leaders in yardage and catches.

Our recievers have yet to play to there potential. I know we are all tired of hearing about the potential these guys got. I am sure once the Oline is back intact the whole offensive production should rise.

But no way can we compare our receivers to the Pats receivers, they simply are playing at a very high level.

[SKINFAN]

Their recievers and our recievers comparison alone does not tell the story, YOu figure in the QB, and then you see we are severely out matched. BUT, thank goodness stats alone don't win games. Our Defense will line up against their offense, that alone gives us the edge since the Pats have not lined up against a D that runs and hums like ours. We can compete and maybe dominate them for a while till they adjust, or the Defense gets tired. Our offense will need to pull their weight on this one. I look for ST to cover Moss on deep routes, Carlos on Welker and Springs on stallworth, while the rookie frequently introduces himself to their RB and Brady. Fletch will be all over the place like always, Carter needs to collapse or shift the pocket like he always do. We will see which one will give out, thier offense or thier defense. We need the team that showed up in the detroit game.

[roybus14]

Once again it boils down to opportunities. Look at the stats on us and the Pats in terms of number of passes thrown or pass play. We've thrown the ball about 168 times compared to the Pats 232 times. The last time I checked, 232 is more than 168 and therefore means more opportunities for WRs to make catches....

Let's not focus on the Green Bay game like what we saw in that game has been every game this season. When your coach (Gibbs) decides to get conservative after half time of just about every game this year and we constantly go three and out, that means the WRs aren't gonna get many touches.

And the sad part about this catches and going down the field thing, we haven't played anybody yet with a top-flight secondary.......

[langleyparkjoe]

Carlos on Welker? Carlos on Stallworth? Carlos on Billechek? Carlos on me? That guy Carlos can't cover his own steps in snow. He sucks. Whoever he's checking will have a personal record-setting game. UNFORTUNATELY!

GO SKINS !!!!!

[SKINFAN]

Carlos on Welker? Carlos on Stallworth? Carlos on Billechek? Carlos on me? That guy Carlos can't cover his own steps in snow. He sucks. Whoever he's checking will have a personal record-setting game. UNFORTUNATELY!

GO SKINS !!!!!

Aw, c'mon. They guy ran one back> YES he actually was CLOSE ENOUGH to the reciever and even timed his Jump for the BALL, TOUCHED IT, LOL, CAUGHT IT... and HELD ON TO IT. I'd say that's an improvement from last year.

[Redskin in Canada]

Guys, let me shock you even more: I EXPECT a decent pass protection from this OL. We will develop a plan to run against them. I have more confidence in Joe Bugel than most of you do.

Sorry. I was wrong.

And in order to answer the original question:

What offense works without a decent OL?

The obvious answer is NONE. Their OL and DL dominated ours and rest was history.

[wbbradb]

And in order to answer the original question:

What offense works without a decent OL?

The obvious answer is NONE. Their OL and DL dominated ours and rest was history.

Gibbs and Saunders are trying to compensate for the OL--short passes, wide receiver screens, running the ball. The problem is, everyone knows that's what we do, so it's easy to defend. Most if not all of the longer pass plays yesterday resulted in a sack, Campbell fumbling the ball, or an interception. When you try to "open it up" without an OL, it gets ugly, even uglier than the conservative offense everyone loves to hate.

[SkinsJock]

It does not matter to most here that a conservative offense might be the only option when you have so many issues with the offensive line - let Campbell get sacked and even if he fumbles the ball a lot, we just want passes downfield - we've had enough of that dink and dunk offense to last a lifetime - give us an exciting passing game even if we cannot move the ball

[CanesSkins26]

What I don't understand is that with these offensive line problems why we don't roll JC out more. He is mobile and throws pretty well on the run. Why always keep him in the pocket? Also, why not add in some 3 step drops, slants, etc? Brady, even with a strong line, took short drops and got the ball out quick to his receivers on timing routes. Instead of trying something new we just keep calling 5 and 7 step drops for JC and he is getting pummeled in the pocket.

[HitDoctor]

...Just to make the question clear.

I have read, again and again, that the Redskin coaches should "open up" the offense. How can they do that without an OL?

It is repeated endlessly that a lineman has an easier time run-blocking because they get to kick-out and hit people. It is harder, takes more experience, more skill, better foot work, to protect the passer because the OL must fall back. They have to cover all the rushers, coordinate with each other, move backward, pivot, take the inside route, and counter-charge just at the right moment, if they can.

Example: Joe Jacoby could flatten Lawrence Taylor on a run play, but Taylor usually got around Joe J on passes. Lachey was more nimble, and also got his 295 pound body between Taylor and the QB. Quicker feet, good sense of the play, good positioning.

Therefore, what kind of bombs-away passing game can work with a broken down OL?

Too many people talk as if it were just a matter of saying, "Jason, throw long" and, presto chango the problem is solved.

Where's the evidence that this can work?

NO offense can work without a decent OL...............EVER!! You can't run, pass or do anything. It ALL starts there!

[Countertrey]

Chuck Norris wouldn't need an offensive line... Let's get him.

[jmooney]

You can expect every team to blitz Campbell every 2 or 3 downs now , until this team is capable of burning people for it. Right now , we cant.

[SkinsJock]

The importance of a quality offensive line cannot be under-estimated. This is the most critical group of players on the field - we are in desperate straights right now but we have one of the best coaches at this position and hopefully we can make something happen with this group over the next few games.

any word on when Thomas is going to be able to play again?