I just don't understand world politics...

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:12 am

Man, call me a commie or whatever but could someone explain why we are in Iraq?

I mean, when we decided we wanted to start our own country we kicked the crap out of one of the mightiest armies in the world (while using about 9 militiamen armed with 6 muskets led by the honorable George Washington... like Jay Mohr says, it's not our fault the English wore bright red coats... in the snow) then after the British were handed their arses we started formulating our own government. The French didn't come over and raid the constitutional convention so they could start telling us how to run things, they stayed back, they were kind of our backup to make sure no one messed with us, but they let us go about their business.

I mean, I love democracy, it's done a lot for America and in just a few hundred years it has made us an industrialized and powerful nation... but I don't beleieve there is a universal form of government for everyone. I mean, some countries lasted for FAR more than our 200 some odd years with kings and queens (not all of these figures are ruthless leaders, especially a king who folows Islam, there is not much in their religion that would allow them to abuse power) Why are we in Iraq, where we clearly are not wanted (either by our allies or by the indigenous people's of Iraq) to perform a task that is clearly not needed.

I mean, are we about to risk the security and stability of another country so we can put a leader in Iraq that will owe us a favor for putting him in a position of power? All this so he can give us a couple cents off on gasoline? I... I guess I just don't get it...

Anyway, they don't do college deferments anymore so who knows, I may get drafted, I may go over to Iraq to fight a war that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

ChiliPalmer · Post by **ChiliPalmer** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:23 am

This war has alot of people scratching their heads, and for valid reasons. I guess one silver lining that I look to (not that I expect everyone to see it my way) is that it also ends up being a war against tyranny. When it's a very small group of people with absolute power over a VERY large group of people, you can see situations like that in Iraq. Young men be-headed because they didn't perform well enough on the soccer team. Women raped because the perps didn't have to answer to anyone. False imprisonment, it goes on and on.

It may not have been the "official" reason, but if that activity is curbed, I take some degree of comfort in that. I gotta say that if I were being tortured in prison simply because I didn't loudly trumpet the virtues of my "great leader", I'd be hoping for someone to stick their nose in. Even it's where some others (who don't have a personal stake or need to worry) tell you that nose doesn't belong.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:46 am

I see a part of this war that most do not. One of my duties here at Dover is to process the remains of those killed. I see things that I'm not allowed to or want to talk about. I have very mixed emotions about what were doing. I don't want to see these young men and women deaths be in vain.

To answer your question as to why we're there...the very reason your able to make the statemen you just did (not that I agree or disagree) is the main reason we're there. We had some protesters outside the base a few weeks ago, protesting against the war. Their right to protest is something the Iraqi people didn't have, sometimes I think we take our freedoms for granted in this country.

I respect everyone opinions on this topic...all that I asked is that we ALL support our men and women in uniform who help protect our right to express them

NC43Hog · Post by **NC43Hog** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:24 pm

We are there and need to get our objectives resolved as soon as possible, and yes I support our troops. We have no choice now but to create a stable country or we will pay for it bigtime in the future.

Funny how civil rights violations, tyranny, and genoside haven't caused us to invade countries in the past. What makes this different? A threat of WMD that appears to have never existed, oil fields, taking care of what Bush senior should have finished in the the first place?

No matter how you look at it, it is a mess and unfortunetly some great men and women are paying the ultimate price.

My heart is with you DE, not a situation anyone wants to be in.

curveball · Post by **curveball** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:39 pm

The reasons we went to Iraq is quite simple. One, their military was not very powerful so overall they were something of a pushover. Two, they were the easiest target to go after politically and Three, if a nation as powerful as the US has staging areas in Iraq, they have virtual control over every country in the region.

Syria and Iran (and to some extent Saudi factions) are doing everything in their power to incite problems in Iraq. Ask yourself why.

Iran is facing internal pressure against the governing theocracy. Dissidents in that country would definitely feel emboldened by the US military against their border ready to assist them.

Syria's dictatorship also feels the pressure. They successfully rule that country by giving various terror orginizations free reign.

Even the House of Saud would feel the pressure of a democracy in the region.

Many arab states have demonized Israel and kept their own populace from aspiring to reach Israel's level of prosperity. "Westernization" has become the latest "evil du jour" in most areas of the Middle East because it brings with it a distinct loss of power to the ruling elite.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:05 pm

Well, one thing that is consistently looked over in these discussions (because it makes us look bad) is that we relied on bad intellegence in order to justify our invasion. Congress did authorize the President's use of force (even if you take back Kerry's vote that he's since retracted on); and furthermore Iraq was still in violation of several sanctions. Not only did our intellegence think that he had WMDs, so did Britain, Spain, Italy, France, Germany, etc. I think something needs to be said for the fact that we haven't found any WMD's, and it is highly unlikely that they are in Iraq at all. However, based on the evidence at the time, Iraq seemed to have those weapons and this caused us to invade (in order to help protect ourselves from a future 9-11). We didn't invade primarily to give Iraq the freedoms that we enjoy in our society. It looks to me like the latter side effect is going to be emphasized in Bush's campaign.

That being said, I did and still do support our invasion, mainly because of what the situation was at the time. Not a pleasant happening, but it was (in my opinion) necessary. . .and Bush (again, in my opinion) isn't to blame for the bad intellegence of the entire world (including years' worth of our own).

Does anyone think the invasion was worth it, assuming temporarily that all it will accomplish is a democracy in Iraq? (not a question that's looking for a fight, I'd be interested to know).

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:01 am

we're there because of all the weapons of mass destruction iraq had, obviously. sheesh! i mean, that stuff is all over the place! /end sarcasm.

i personally think gearge jr. was just trying to please his daddy. 'look dad! i got saddam for ya!'. the more i hear, the more i'm convinced he was preoccupied with iraq since the day he got into office.

fanfromannapolis, i think one could blame george-not for the faulty intelligence, but for not heeding the world's and his own advisors' recommendation to wait and do more poking around. instead, he rushed into the war, which at the time won him approval from most of the country, but now it looks like it could be his politcal downfall. the sadest result of this war is that it has probably created more terrorists than it has removed.

dehog, i do not envy you, man. but i most certainly respect that you have the cahones to do your job day after day, and not go crazy. i moved to maine so i wouldn't have to hear about how many soldiers were killed yesterday in iraq and around the world. and you deal with it on a daily basis. i have a buddy in the seals who's heading over there now (again). i hope you never meet him.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:29 am

To make it short and sweet....

Saddam is evil....and there's no place for evil in this world.

If your neighbor is beating the hell out of his wife, and kids...and you see/hear/know about it.... are you just gonna let it continue??? or are you gonna do something about it???

This is the same thing... on a wider scale.... whether you wanna say it's for oil... or bush's daddy.... the one true fact is that this guy approved the murder, raping, and torturing of his people.... and he needed to be stopped.... That's what makes this country and the allies that helped us great countries..... where not willing to stand by and let others suffer.....

now do you understand???

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:04 am

btp, i never said that saddam wasn't evil. i think he is. and i am well aware of the atrocities that he has imposed on his own people (the discovery channel rocks). i am uncertain, however, how this became our problem. i understand the beaten wife comparison, but at what point do i stop interfering? should i go door to door and make sure that all the wives on my block aren't being beaten? should i go to all the homes in my town? in the state? i agree that we should have maintain good relations with our allies, and if one asks for our help (as kuwait did in '91) we should not hesitate to help. that was not the case this time. we picked a country and invaded. whether or not saddam is evil is almost a mute point. what if china thinks that we're evil? should they invade us? and use the same reasoning that we used to justify the invasion of iraq? you may say, 'but we're not evil, we're just trying to help people'. well, others in the world may not see it that way. they may see america as the evil dictator, forcing democracy where it may not be wanted.

also, if bush wanted to start a war with iraq because of the brutal treatment saddam gave to his citizens, he should have said that. instead, he told us that they have wmd, and that they have ties to bin laden. i would have been less appalled at the whole thing if he just told the truth about why he wanted to go in there.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:10 pm

joebagadonuts wrote:btp, i never said that saddam wasn't evil. i think he is. and i am well aware of the atrocities that he has imposed on his own people (the discovery channel rocks). i am uncertain, however, how this became our problem. i understand the beaten wife comparison, but at what point do i stop interfering? should i go door to door and make sure that all the wives on my block aren't being beaten? should i go to all the homes in my town? in the state?

I'm not saying that you should go knocking from door to door... prying.... but you could find out other than prying....and if you know about it, then you would be a coward not to do something about it especially if you feel it's wrong....

joebagadonuts wrote: i agree that we should have maintain good relations with our allies, and if one asks for our help (as kuwait did in '91) we should not hesitate to help. that was not the case this time. we picked a country and invaded.

No my friend we didn't just pick a country.... I mean at one time we were allies with Iraq.... then it seems they weren't cooperating with the United Nations w/ inspectors and such.... and from other things we found out about Saddam, and his injustices to his people.... it was time that someone stepped up.... the reason Bush decided to go in is debatable... but in the end we all know.... we removed an evil person from power....

joebagadonuts wrote: whether or not saddam is evil is almost a mute point. what if china thinks that we're evil? should they invade us? and use the same reasoning that we used to justify the invasion of iraq? you may say, 'but we're not evil, we're just trying to help people'. well, others in the world may not see it that way. they may see america as the evil dictator, forcing democracy where it may not be wanted.

as far as i know we have never forced a country into a democracy.... we've suggested it yes, but there not in Iraq right now trying to establish a goverment and saying this has to be a Democracy....

And you hit the Nail on the Head, America is a super power and anybody who does not agree with us, look to us as the enemy.... this is the reason we need to be more aware and more involved with other countries.... Were the ones that will get hurt if we do not do so.... If we don't help police the world.... will be the first to get hurt....

joebagadonuts wrote:also, if bush wanted to start a war with iraq because of the brutal treatment saddam gave to his citizens, he should have said that. instead, he told us that they have wmd, and that they have ties to bin laden. i would have been less appalled at the whole thing if he just told the truth about why he wanted to go in there.

WMD.... who knows if he had them or not... yes we haven't found any but that doesn't mean he couldn't have destroyed them...... again, the exact reason bush went in is debatable.... in the end, he did the right thing for the people of Iraq, and maybe for other countries and our ownselves in the future.....

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:35 pm

the middle east is so unpredictable, it's impossible to know if by being involved we're making things better or worse for america down the road. many have argued both sides for a long time, not specifically about iraq, but about america being involved in world 'policing' in general. i'll admit, when countries or 'groups' attack our country or our overseas forces, i'm compelled to just say 'f&ck you' and go back to minding our own business. i realize, as you point out, that this attitude may not always be the most noble.

as for the coward comment, the funny thing here is that we're basically talking about the same thing, although we seem to be looking at it from different points of view. it all comes down to a violation of rights. you argue that someone should step in and help the wife (the iraqi people in this case) from having her rights violated by the husband. while i would agree (moreso, i usually get rather pissed off when rights such as the right not be beaten are violated), there's also a gray area. what if the husband just yells at her and threatens to beat her? what if he just tells her that her tuna casserole sucks? at what point do you step in? same thing for countries. at what point does a leader lose his rights to lead his/her country in our eyes, and become an evil dictator? now, i'm not saying that saddam didn't cross that line, he was miles beyond that line. i guess i just wonder how we came to have the responsibility to be one of two countries that felt obligated to remove him. did someone annoint us with that task, or was it self-imposed?

okay, now i'm just rambling, sorry. this is such a hot topic, and i hope that we on this board can continue to 'argue' in a civilized manner, and, worst case scenario, agree to disagree (as we seem to be doing here). for what it's worth, i sincerely hope you're right and i'm wrong, that in the end, the moves made in iraq and the middle east will result in peace rather than more death.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:14 pm

instead of arguing, i like to call it "debating" and debating is healthy,good,only makes you more knowledgeable, and makes you more open minded... which is what alot of people in this country could use

I definetly agree that it was self-imposed... we have this whole thing about trying to know everything about other countries, and to many that seems arogant... but to us it's nessesary because were the ones with the targets on our back and thats mainly do to us being the richest country in the world.....

We definetly need to not cross that line and I think with alot of countries we do a good job of voicing our opinion and then stepping back and letting countries solve there own problems.... but we tried to end this thing with saddam over 10 years ago in the first war.... and we didn't do a good job of it.... and his ways continued, hopefully this war was to correct our past mistakes...

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:34 pm

Ok I didn't step in because I didn'te" want to "debate" But I will step in and say that number one I agree with BTP. Number 2, I am so sick of people in this country disrespecting our President. He didn't make this up to please his father. He didn't do thi for oil. I remember being scared to pieces after Sept 11th. I remember not being able to sleep. I had the news radio station on 24/7 and trust me that is not an exaderation. I remember being scared to death as a plane crossed over route 28, a little lower then I thought it should. The man that did this to our country and our people was not Saddam but he was built from the same mold. Given the opportunity he'd surely strike the same way if not worse. If President Bush (notice his correct tittle, I get sick of the media calling him Mr. Bush), decided this is what our country needed to do to protect us for another attack such as this, then I support him.
There is only one more point that I'd like to make here, if Saddam managed to live in a little hole in the ground with all that cash, don't you think he was possible of getting rid of the WMD? I am sure they existed, I am just as sure this tyrant knew to get them out of dodge before we got near enough to find them. This is just my opinion. And mind you I spend all day with a 2 year old, so I may not speak quite as educated as some of you, but my vote counts just as much as yours does.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:35 pm

One point I want to make is...Americans didn't start talking about terroists until after 9/11. Again from my veiw it started years ago! Beruit, Kobar Towers, Kenya Bombing, USS Cole. All were done overseas and not on our soil. WTC was attacked 10 year before 9/11 and that should've woke us up. It took 9/11 to wake us up and even now I feel were're more concerned with laying blame rather then preventing the next one. My point is this is not a Rep/Dem problem this is America's problem.

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:58 pm

I agree with you DEHog I feel like the American people on a whole are forgeting it slowly. It bugs me to no end when I see travelers on the news complaining about their wait at the airport or extra security measures being taken. I heard somewhere that if the sceening requirements of the 80's when the whole hijacking thing was taken at least a little more seriously were followed a few of those 9/11 hijackers wouldn't have been allowed to board.
I am one that is all for infringing my privacy if it would have saved 5000 lives I'd easily and happily give it up.

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:08 pm

nikih, your passion is much appreciated, despite the fact that i can't agree with you. whatever saddam was capable of, i can't accept that he was tied to bin laden, when the president's (see how i cleverly avoided the name issue?) own data has no evidence of such a connection. and as much as you are upset at the president being disrespected, i feel the same disrespect from the president for lying to me in an attempt to gain my support for a war. i'm absolutely no expert, but i would think that is there were wmd that were distroyed before we could get in there, there would be some evidence left over. at some point, if we're trying to eliminate leaders who want to attack the u.s., even if they don't have the means, then we should be attacking iran, syria, north korea, the palestinians, and a long list of others. we employ a system that claims we are 'innocent until proven guilty' but we're not willing to extend that equally to other countries? mind you, i am in no way saying that a country needs to kill 3000 americans before we should attack, but i do believe that we should have some decent evidence of their intent before we do so.

as i said before, i think we all want the same thing, peace, it's simply a matter of how that peace is attained - either by more involvement in world politics or less. it would be nice if we (as a country) could shed the republican/democrat titles and concentrate on the best possible solution to the problem, i agree dehog.

and, by the way, my wife spends all day with our 4 year old, and i value her opinion more than anyone else i know.

NC43Hog · Post by **NC43Hog** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:31 pm

Well said Jelly Role, I mean Joe.

I also want to point out that I a tired of anyone with a differing view from the current administrations stance as being Non-Patriotic. Dissent is deeply woven into our history and culture, it's how this country started, and rose against tyrrany.

You can suport our men in arms and their committment and still question what is going on. When we stop asking questions and just follow blindly then the true democracy we value will vanish. It's not a left or right wing issue - just simply our duty as americans.

Thump . . I just stepped off my soapbox. :lol:

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:40 pm

well said, nc43. not only do we have the right to question what any branch of the government does, we have a responsibility to do so. otherwise, it's not a governemnt for the people and by the people [cue patriotic music]. even if we decide that what was done was the correct thing to do, we should still be examining everything.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:06 pm

here's a little article on some of the stuff IRAQ was doing prior to this war: (just to understand a little on some of the reasons that he needed to be stopped)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 6jmcbd.asp

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:13 pm

JBD would you have a different view if WMD were found?? What if I told you I've been ask by a private company to work for them to identify 1000's of Iraqis killed in chemical attack by Saddam and buried in mass graves in Iraq? Not that I have but if....

joebagadonuts · Post by **joebagadonuts** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:35 pm

btp, a very interesting article, though i have to admit i didn't have the time to read the entire thing. one thing i've learned in following politics is that there is no such thing as a 'fact'. information that is given (by both parties-dems are just as guilty as republicans) can be skewed in such a way as to emphasize certain things, and de-emphasize others. i could tell that the article was written by two people who supported the bush administration in their war efforts, and that came through in the article. i'm not saying they were lying, they were simply putting forth an argument that supported their viewpoint. someone who is against the war may write an article listing other data that would emphasize their point of view.

that being said, i don't really have the opportunity here to get into what iraq did and did not do (in terms of the inspections, wmd, etc.) before the war. i will say that i do believe saddam to be an evil man, and i'm glad that he's not in power anymore. i guess i'm just not convinced that he posed a threat to the u.s., and that it was our responsibility to remove him from power.

i'm not ashamed to say 'i don't know how i feel' about certain parts of this whole thing. maybe that's viewed as a cowardly position to take, but i'd like to think of it as open-minded. i'm not george bush's biggest fan (in case you couldn't tell), and i'll admit that the guy could crap golden eggs and i'd still be suspicious. i realize that may skew my point of view.

if they did find wmd right where the president said we would, sure, that would change my thinking. maybe not drastically, but some. and i'm aware of what saddam has done to his own people. i even know that he had his own son-in-law killed for fear that he was growing more popular than himself. but i'm just not sure that's our business. if he has killed thousands of his own people, then the world should take notice and do something about it. again, i'm not convinced that it is our sole responsibility.

well, i have to split for the weekend, so i can't continue this. but it's been fun! thanks for the spirited argu-er, i mean debates! next week i say we tackle capitol punishment....

Texas Hog · Post by **Texas Hog** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:36 pm

Joe, how can you not be convinced that saddamn wasn't a threat to the US? Do you believe bin laden is or was a threat to the US?

The WMDs were used on saddam's own people and what were left over more than likely transported to Iran or Syria.

Curveball, we do control that region of the world...and would have regardless...we didn't need to have staging in Iraq to do so.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:15 pm

No i never said you were a coward.... and I'm glad your open-minded

people like you are more interesting....

Yes the artical could have been written by pro-Bush people..... but it did have facts about the situation Iraq was causing and those are something the pro and anti Bush people can't deny.....

Hell, i voted for Gore.... so I'm not a pro this or anti that.... I just felt with what was going on over there the President did the right thing, in my opinion...

I understand your side of the issue also... so I can see how people could disagree.... The article wasn't to impose anything on you... just to open your eyes

Thanks for debating with me..... I hope next time, it's about something not so serious

NC43Hog · Post by **NC43Hog** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:11 pm

This has been a good debate everyone - free of too much ranting and raving, and full of good insiteful dialogue.

Another reason I love this board and it's varied membership.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:49 pm

I, for one, don't really care about the how and the why. I know that there are some very brave people over there from a whole bunch of different places doing a very difficult and dangerous job.
As I see it, Iraq is a hotbed of terrorist activity. I can appreciate the view that we oughtn't do to the Iraqi people what bin Laden did to us on that dark day in September 2001. You have to start somewhere, and Hussein was a known proponent of terrorist activities. Was there some "unfinished business" in the Bush family ? Don't know, don't care. Can Dr. Rice explain away the feelings we all have about the apparent ineptitude of our government in recognizing and preventing the attacks ? Doubt it. I really believe, though, that our government (via our intelligence community and our armed forces) have quelled many, many other potential diasters. This one got past them. Were it as simple as a batting average in baseball, I'd say we're still batting .900 . That ain't half bad.
I've used this analogy before in private conversations to drive this point home.
I work in maintenance on a major highway in NYS. About a year ago, a bus carrying some 40 Hasidim to their vacation colony in Sullivan County caught fire. Three of the passengers were overcome by the smoke and perished. The reamining passengers were waiting calmly on the road shoulder waiting for EMS and the local fire department to arrive. We got there first, and closed the lane to divert traffic around the scene.
A co-worker asked how the survivors could appear so calm and organzied in the face of this tragedy. One of the Hasidic elders told him, "We're from Isreal. We've seen this sort of thing before on a much larger scale. When we survey the scene, we are more thankful for those who lived than remorseful for those who died. One can only view so much tragedy in life before becoming numb to it." Is that attitude one of resignation or one of bravery ? That's for you to decide on your own. For me, it's a combination of both. They accept what has happened, and tend to those who've lived. That's what I think we're doing right now, in Iraq.
Since we as Americans are generally unaccustomed to the sort of attacks on our way of life that we saw on September 11th, 2001, we take it much more personally. I know I do, and I don't really care about how and why. All I care about is living my life the way I always have, and I'm very thankful for those brave men and women who are over there trying to help us maintain our batting average, and trying to ensure that my children can live as freely as I have.