Everything that is wrong with this team...

Talk about the Washington Football Team here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?

Do you have faith in Danny boy and Vinny C making personel decisions?

Yes
12
28%
No
31
72%
 
Total votes: 43

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Everything that is wrong with this team...

Post by nuskins »

Wow, this article may have already been posted here in a thread but it sure provides a glimpse of what is wrong with this team.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/24/AR2007042402340.html


One of the more critical insights I gained from the article is the draft day "war room" is nothing more than the 3 wrong men making the decisions for this team.

Danny S- who has proved by action that he knows nothing about football other than playing FF with our team.

Vinny C- literally single handidly destroyed the 49's when he was there

Joe G- a genius of a coach but no player personell wizard ( remmeber he had a GM in hi first tenure)

So, to all those who have defended this Danny boy on this board and said that he has removed himself from operations and Joe G has control of the team this should be a real awakening. We have the above 3 guys deciding personel issues here! Why in the heck is Danny boy flying across the country evaluating college players before the draft? This is nothing more than a fantasy football draft for Danny boy. I never remember JCK prancing around with college prospects.

Then we have Vinny C, a proven failure in this league with regards to personel, playing yes man to the delusional owner. The combination of these two guys is the downfall of this organization. To think I thought for a nanosecond that Danny might wise up and unload Vinny this offseason was as optimistically delusional as our chances to ever field a competitive and respected team during his tenure as owner.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with this team...

Post by PulpExposure »

nuskins wrote:I never remember JCK prancing around with college prospects.


1. He was too busy prancing with the young ladies instead...

2. He probably would have had a heart attack from all of the travel and stress.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with this team...

Post by Chris Luva Luva »

PulpExposure wrote:1. He was too busy prancing with the young ladies instead...


At least he had sense enough to focus on what he was good at.
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Post by frankcal20 »

Well there are rumors that the front office will be totally different next year. There is speculation that we are going to clean house. The system is flawed and thats why we have dome so poorly drafting players. Something tells me that we will be bringing in a GM this year but not until after the draft.
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Post by SkinsFreak »

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone argue for Vinny, ever. And we've already heard rumors that he might be gone after the draft.

I do however, have faith in Gibbs. He drafted Taylor, Rogers, Campbell, McIntosh, Cooley and Golston. Those guys are pretty damn good and I don't hear anyone complaining about them. So saying Gibbs is a poor player evaluator is not completely accurate.
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Post by SkinsJock »

Thanks for the post if you'll pardon the pun, but it really is not "news" per se to most here. These are who we have and most agree that this group has not done well with who the players they have brought in. Well they have had some success but primarily it has not been a great performance.

This is Gibbs team now and Snyder supports him and ensures he does everything he can to get whatever Gibbs wants.

Most here would agree that Cerrato should be replaced with a GM that has the ability and the staff to ensure that the players who come here are both productive and make the other players around them better.

A lot of this stuff from the Post is just so agressive in nature and really is not very objective - these guys are known for their stance on this team. They certainly hope that this group falls on their face again because that will only help this very anti Redskins group :moon:



I'm sure ther are quite a few here that hope that Cerrato and the talent evaluators (that have done nothing) are gone soon - Gibbs and Snyder will be here and I do not see Snyder changing his support for Gibbs OR Gibbs not taking full responsibility for the performance of this team - well, if they do well he will most likely give credit to others but he alone is the guy here at this time - with Snyder's full support. :lol:
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

I'd just like a reporter to ask Danny to defend this organizations structure by the win/loss record. Any time they ask about F/A vs. Draft and that balance they always say, Portis, Marcus, etc. The same ol'line.

But I want someone to ask him to defend it in the win/loss column, you know, where it counts, just to see what he'd say.
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Post by nuskins »

SkinsFreak wrote:I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone argue for Vinny, ever. And we've already heard rumors that he might be gone after the draft.

I do however, have faith in Gibbs. He drafted Taylor, Rogers, Campbell, McIntosh, Cooley and Golston. Those guys are pretty damn good and I don't hear anyone complaining about them. So saying Gibbs is a poor player evaluator is not completely accurate.


True, although I never said Gibbs was a poor player evaluator. I think he should be involved to some extent but the real point I was trying to get across with the post was that the decision is not being made by Joe G, it's being made or highly influenced by Dan and Vinny. Two men who I have no faith in whatsoever to make good personel decisions, hence the poll that did not include Gibbs.

After all the trainwrecks throughout the past 7 years I thought that an intelligent business man would step back and analyze what is wrong. It is evidently clear to many others that upper management is the problem here, but Dan is in denial.

It certainly doesn't reflect a "hands off" approach we were led to believe when Joe G came back into town. This is about as "hands on" as it can get. What does the Dan actually think he is accomplishing for the team by being on the sidelines performing player evaluations?

What a joke.
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Post by CcHhDd »

Why are you giving credit to Joe Gibbs for drafting taylor rodgers campbell mcintosh cooley and golston. Do you have inside information reguarding the redskins. It seems to me a lot of people give gibbs the credit when things go good but dump on Cerrato when things go bad.

I personally think there are at least 5 gm's available that would be better than cerrato but give the man some credit.

He's been able to keep our two bookend tackles on offense signed. Picked up good help at center and RG through free agency. Made a near great trade for a franchise back, something gibbs' offense must have. Signed three near pro-bowl level players in Washington, Springs, and Griffin. Spent what few picks we have had the past few years on good talented guys that are still with the team and doing well (Betts, Cartright, Cooley, Taylor, Rodgers, Campbell, Smoot)

A lot of people on this board tend to focus really bad on the negatives of this Front Office. But every year we are the offseason winners and on paper look like one of the best teams in the NFC year in and year out. At some point you gotta look at things and see that the Front Office is doing their job and getting us talented players, which they are

Then it comes down to the coaching. This team has talent. Thing is nobody has been able to come in and be a good coach and put it all together. Schotty had potential but we dumped him after a year. I still believe in gibbs but I really think he must step up and lead and coach more. He's the hall of fame coach, not gregg williams or al saunders.
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Post by aswas71788 »

The magical 3 could have done worse; think about Houston and Arizona. They have GM's (even an old Redskin one) and still finished worse that the Redskins.
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Post by Peety »

ok, to conclude this arguement, our fornt office does a good jod and I am confident in their ability to put together a good team. From last year, Carter, El, turned out good. Lloyd, still needs to prove it and I think he will, Archuleta....I know....but, we took a chance on him and it did not work...I mean...can anybody tell me what GM makes all the right decisions of free agents or draft picks, with no mistakes. Come on, now, we all know the answer. Also, Gibbs is right by saying no rookie is coming to DC and start right away. We have all positions covered, we could get better via free agency and I am know saying all of them are undisputed starters, but come on....what other team can say that about their Roster...very few...
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Post by nuskins »

Peety wrote:ok, to conclude this arguement, our fornt office does a good jod and I am confident in their ability to put together a good team. ..


Hmmm...so where does this confidence come from?

A record below .500 (54-58 ) for the past 7 years of ownership with Dan and Vinny running personel? (somewhat inflated due to the 10-6 record of 1999 when he couldn't yet dictate personel other than the 25 FO people he fired, some with 20+ years of FO experience)

or

The 5 head coaches since 1999?

or

The one winning season since this nightmare began? (2005)

I am not trying to flame here, only want to understand how people still have confidence in a management system that has proven mediocre results at best over the course of 7 years?

Personel has improved dramatically since Joe G came on board, I'll admit to that thugh I still think the management needs to be shaken up...starting with Vinny C.
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Post by HEROHAMO »

SkinsFreak wrote:I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone argue for Vinny, ever. And we've already heard rumors that he might be gone after the draft.

I do however, have faith in Gibbs. He drafted Taylor, Rogers, Campbell, McIntosh, Cooley and Golston. Those guys are pretty damn good and I don't hear anyone complaining about them. So saying Gibbs is a poor player evaluator is not completely accurate.
Agreed.

Gibbs has brought in Portis , Taylor, Cooley, Springs, Campbell, Mcintosh, Sellers, I have no complaints about Gibbs.

All the moves Vinny has made Gibbs is cleaning up after him now.
Sean Taylor starting free safety Heavens team!

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Post by SkinsJock »

CcHhDd wrote:...I personally think there are at least 5 gm's available that would be better than cerrato but give the man some credit.


Cerrato is not the GM!

..A lot of people on this board tend to focus really bad on the negatives of this Front Office. But every year we are the offseason winners and on paper look like one of the best teams in the NFC year in and year out. At some point you gotta look at things and see that the Front Office is doing their job and getting us talented players, which they are


That is only part of the story - we seem to get a lot of "talent" but it does not seem to be a good "fit" - There are some very talented coaches here and they just need coachable players NOT players who do not want to do whatever is needed to be better than when they came here.

..Then it comes down to the coaching. This team has talent. Thing is nobody has been able to come in and be a good coach and put it all together. Schotty had potential but we dumped him after a year. I still believe in gibbs but I really think he must step up and lead and coach more. He's the hall of fame coach, not gregg williams or al saunders.

The problem has been we have been bringing in players that have not worked out or have not made much effort to suit what the coaches want. This is not the coaches fault entirely - most of the problem is because we have not found the right players to do what we want them to do.

Bringing in a talented player is only going to work out if by utilizing that talent he makes other players better too - most of these guys are only interested in themselves not their team.
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

Chemistry and the locker room atmosphere don't matter in EA NFL Madden. :twisted:
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Post by aswas71788 »

Would you rather be an Arizona fan? They are 56 - 94 for the last 10 years and have had only one season in that time when they won more games that they lost (9 - 7 in 1998). They never won more than 7 games in any of the other 9 years.

Give me the Redskins with Dan, Vinny (well maybe not him) and Gibbs any time.

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Post by John Manfreda »

SkinsFreak wrote:I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone argue for Vinny, ever. And we've already heard rumors that he might be gone after the draft.

I do however, have faith in Gibbs. He drafted Taylor, Rogers, Campbell, McIntosh, Cooley and Golston. Those guys are pretty damn good and I don't hear anyone complaining about them. So saying Gibbs is a poor player evaluator is not completely accurate.

Those were Snyder and Cerrato picks and I know for a fact Gibbs had nothing to do with the first draft.
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

John Manfreda wrote:Those were Snyder and Cerrato picks and I know for a fact Gibbs had nothing to do with the first draft.


How do you know?
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Post by Redskin in Canada »

My kind of thread. Lovely. :twisted:

CcHhDd wrote:A lot of people on this board tend to focus really bad on the negatives of this Front Office. But every year we are the off-season winners and on paper look like one of the best teams in the NFC year in and year out. At some point you gotta look at things and see that the Front Office is doing their job and getting us talented players, which they are.

I agree with this poster. :shock:

But let me explain what this -really- means:

1) "we are the off-season winners and on paper look one of the best teams in the NFC year in and year out. "

Good point and true! How can anybody argue against that? Winning the -off-season- and looking good on -paper- surely attracts media attention, sponsors, sells merchandise, justifies ticket prices kikes and even brings more fan to the stadium. From an owner perspective, What could be wrong with this. Nothing. The greater the profit, the greater the success right. The more the stupid suckers are bled bone dry, the better the bottom line. After all, they own the Redskins. They have a monopoly on the use and abuse of the team any possible way they want to.

You have to give credit to the Danny and Vinny. They have managed to pull new bottles of snake oil every season since they arrived because they have a loyal and captive fan base. We believe in spite of our logic out of LOYALTY to a team and to our hero Joe Gibbs.

If you are a greedy owner, Cerrato has done a -wonderful- job. The Stadium built and sold obstructed view and dream seats, the "club" and all these other wonders that cost an arm and a leg to the fans. The profit has been -enormous- to the owner. Who can argue against Cerrato on those grounds? Nobody, certainly not the owner who-must- be grateful and on his hands and knees for the wholesale snake oil operation led by Vinny.

2) "At some point you gotta look at things and see that the Front Office is doing their job and getting us talented players, which they are."

Some of them have been talented and we love them because they are the Washington Redskins and that's it. We love them out of loyalty because they wear our uniform. Some of them make great -individual- efforts. A team? A Joe Gibbs team? This is NOT. At least not yet.

The wonder of a Joe Gibbs team was -always- having the team ahead of -any- individuality. THAT is what is wrong with this owner and his Cerrato sidekick. They feel that this is a fantasy game and that chemistry, character and a band of brothers mentality can be generated just swapping players like animals in a farm. There is no true oyalty to the players and I wonder who is really loyal to the team more so than to their higher pay with us.

But -even- if any credit is given for the SUPER expensive acquisition of some good players, the Redskins are known throughout the NFL as a TOP HEAVY team. If the expensive players, there is no depth whatsoever to fill-in those positions at a reasonably close degree of competence. If some key people get hurt, the team falls like a domino set one piece pushing the next one down.

To follow your analogy, it looks good on paper. But it is a PAPER TIGER.

Surely, I could go on and on about the Neon, George, Trotter, Archuleta, Bruce Smith, and other disastrous player acquisitions but why should I? I am not in the business of depressing you today. I am only i the business to say that the BOTTOM line for a fan is the performance of its team with character win or lose. I am not afraid of losing if a loss is hard fought with dignity and courage as a TEAM.

Although I could, I am not going to argue that Cerrato should be fired because of his overall performance on what many fans think counts: wins/ losses, conference championships, and playoff appearances. My expectations are lower if you will. My expectations are to have a TEAM that I can proudly call my own win or lose. My expectations are not to be the laughing stock and main subject of ridicule in the NFL. My expectations are to have a Joe Gibbs team without the dead weight of an ignorant and greedy owner and his incompetent snake oil sidekick.

You see? The fans are getting fed up with this owner. We really are.
Last edited by Redskin in Canada on Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by SkinsFreak »

John Manfreda wrote:
SkinsFreak wrote:I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone argue for Vinny, ever. And we've already heard rumors that he might be gone after the draft.

I do however, have faith in Gibbs. He drafted Taylor, Rogers, Campbell, McIntosh, Cooley and Golston. Those guys are pretty damn good and I don't hear anyone complaining about them. So saying Gibbs is a poor player evaluator is not completely accurate.

Those were Snyder and Cerrato picks and I know for a fact Gibbs had nothing to do with the first draft.


There are MANY people involved with crafting a draft board. We simply can't credit (or blame) any one single person. Everyone has input and everyone contributes in the grading process of players. It's an integrated process and any suggestion to the contrary would not be accurate. I mentioned Gibbs because it was suggested that he struggles with player evaluation and I countered that with some names. But we all know Gibbs does not have sole responsibility. But I do believe he has more influence than most.

Snyder said in the presser that he wanted to draft Moss, but they ended up going another direction. So no one person is responsible for picking players nor should one person have that responsibility. It's a team effort and not everyone gets their man.

But since Snyder became the owner, I think most everyone would agree that Gibbs has had the most clout at Redskins Park and the most respect from Snyder.
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Post by HailSkins94 »

I don't know you tell me:


2000: Redskins #2 LaVar Arrington (Best draft in years, or was it?)
Redskins #3 Chris Samuels
#9 Brian Urlacher
#13 John Abraham
#16 Julian Peterson
#19 Shaun Alexander(justified, Davis ran for 1,318 and11)
Redskins #64 Lloyd Harrison???????? (Lots of talent)
#78 Laveranues Coles
#80 Darrell Jackson
Redskins #155 Quincy Sanders (Nice pick)
#168 Marc Bulger (I guess we did have Jeff George as backup)
#169 Neil Rackers (The tandem of Conway, Husted, Murray, Hepner, and Bentley were good enough I suppose))


2001: Redskins #15 Rod Gardner (that's a solid pick right there)
#16 Santana Moss
#17 Steve Hutchinson
#21 Nate Clements
#23 Deuce McAllister
#30 Reggie Wayne
#31 Todd Heap


2002: Redskins #32 Patrick Ramsey (another solid pick)
#51 Clinton Portis (familiar?)
Redskins(this a good one) #79 Rashad Bauman
#91 Brian Westbrook

2003: Redskins #44 Taylor Jacobs ???????? (he is quick, should be able to get deep)
#54 Anquan Boldin
#56 Osi Umenyiora
#68 Lance Briggs (Name sounds familiar for some reason)
#69 Jason Witten

2004: Redskins #5 Sean Taylor (not that bad of a pick, maybe a tad early?)
#7 Roy Williams (WR)
#8 DeAngelo Hall
#11 Ben Roethlisberger
#12 Jonathan Vilma
#13 Lee Evans
#14 Tommie Harris

2005: Redskins #9 Carlos Rogers (really solid, great hands)
#11 DeMarcus Ware
#12 Shawne Merriman (anyone?)
Redskins #25 Jason Campbell (Can he play?)

2006: #35 Rocky McIntosh???? (Once again, can he play?)

2007: ?????????????? Adrian Peterson?

Anyone notice any trends? Coles, Moss, Portis, Briggs?

Bottom line is when it comes to having an eye for talent, the Redskins have none. There is no secret as to why every year seems the same, like we are in a revolving door. I wonder what we will do to botch this years draft?
HAIL TO THE REDSKINS!!!
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Post by Irn-Bru »

HailSkins94 wrote:I don't know you tell me:


2000: Redskins #2 LaVar Arrington (Best draft in years, or was it?)
Redskins #3 Chris Samuels
#9 Brian Urlacher
#13 John Abraham
#16 Julian Peterson
#19 Shaun Alexander(justified, Davis ran for 1,318 and11)
. . .



The Redskins have had some bad drafts in recent years, but your post isn't a valid critique, since every team will look as foolish when you apply this logic. If players like Clinton Portis are such talents that the Skins missed out on, why did every single team in the NFL likewise give them a miss on their first pass, leaving them to be drafted in the later rounds?

Teams will readily admit that their later picks are risks. No team honestly thinks they're getting a superstar in the 3rd round, but that's what's great about the NFL: hungry players can surprise everyone when they get a chance.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Take, for example, the media-adored Patriots, masters of draft talent. Here's their 2000 draft:

Patriots picks:
46 Adrian Klemm OL
76 J.R. Redmond RB
127 Greg Robinson-Randall OL
141 Dave Stachelski TE
161 Jeff Marriott DT
188 Antwan Harris DB
199 Tom Brady QB
201 David Nugent DT
226 Casey Tisdale DE
239 Patrick Pass RB

Here's who they passed up:
47 Oakland Jerry Porter
59 Indianapolis Marcus Washington
153 Kansas City Dante' Hall
166 New Orleans Chad Morton
168 New Orleans Marc Bulger
169 Cincinnati Neil Rackers
186 Baltimore Adalius Thomas
189 Denver Mike Anderson


So the Patriots guess right on Brady (a player they took a risk on only after making 6 other selections), and they screw up the rest of their picks . . . and they are are geniuses?

Try this with any other team, and you'll get the same result. That's no way to judge whether or not a team can tell talent from duds. Otherwise, why didn't NE grab Brady with their first pick?
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Post by Redskin in Canada »

Ah! But since we are applying logic, we could apply some statistics that reveal a trend that is not subjective:

Q: How many picks made by the Redskins in the second round and lower in a Draft under Danny Snyder and Vinny Cerrato have made it to a pro-bowl or a pro-bowl type season?

A #1 Ten? OK this not realistic.
A #2 Five? Ok, this is not realistic either.

How about one? Anyone? Anybody? A single player ??? No? Are you trying to tell me that there has not been a -single- player recruited by the Skins from the second to the last round over the last decade that has not been that good?

A #3 A perfect record: 0%, Nil, Nothing, None, Nada.

But of course this is a biased and subjective statistic. We -really- find talent. We really do. We simply let others discover it first in the NFL. :roll:

Which begs the question: Why do we have a scout department at all? :shock:
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Post by HailSkins94 »

Irn-Bru wrote:Take, for example, the media-adored Patriots, masters of draft talent. Here's their 2000 draft:

Patriots picks:
46 Adrian Klemm OL
76 J.R. Redmond RB
127 Greg Robinson-Randall OL
141 Dave Stachelski TE
161 Jeff Marriott DT
188 Antwan Harris DB
199 Tom Brady QB
201 David Nugent DT
226 Casey Tisdale DE
239 Patrick Pass RB

Here's who they passed up:
47 Oakland Jerry Porter
59 Indianapolis Marcus Washington
153 Kansas City Dante' Hall
166 New Orleans Chad Morton
168 New Orleans Marc Bulger
169 Cincinnati Neil Rackers
186 Baltimore Adalius Thomas
189 Denver Mike Anderson


So the Patriots guess right on Brady (a player they took a risk on only after making 6 other selections), and they screw up the rest of their picks . . . and they are are geniuses?

Try this with any other team, and you'll get the same result. That's no way to judge whether or not a team can tell talent from duds. Otherwise, why didn't NE grab Brady with their first pick?


My point is, it is always someone else to find the talent, not us. Other teams got these players, sometimes no more than 4 or 5 picks behind our pick. Why aren't we hitting on at least 1 or 2 of these drafted players even?????? Just give me a couple, not all of them. We are just terrible at recruting talent. Bottom line.
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