Clements and possibillities of going to the Skins

[gibbs4president]

With all of this cap space being freed up... I wouldn't be surprised to see Snyder go after Clements. I think that would be a big mistake, and I don't think putting all of our eggs into one basket is a great plan...

[SkinsFreak]

With all of this cap space being freed up... I wouldn't be surprised to see Snyder go after Clements. I think that would be a big mistake, and I don't think putting all of our eggs into one basket is a great plan...

When you say you "wouldn't be surprised to see Snyder go after Clements", I'm sure you really mean 'Gibbs and Williams' going after Clements, right? Because I rather doubt it's Snyder who is making the personnel choices at this point.

[gibbs4president]

yeah, my fault...

[Skins2daGrave]

draft a CB.

[nyjetsfan69]

How can you make excuses about our wins, you sound like a fool. We beat jax, what happened when you played them 42-0? I live in ny and watch the jets. You had the biggest cupcake schedule in the league. Talk about a bad win, with your playoff life on the line you eeked one out against cleo lemon. Statistically you had the least injuries to starters in all of football. Please showcase some knowledge, Justin Miller was your third corner, something that is very important in this league and he got chewed up. Your excuses are terrible. The COLTS GAME!!! We were winning at half. You guys were getting beat the whole game and got back in the game with a kickoff return (according to you great special teams plays dont count as wins like ours against the boys) Please don't spit a couple of little things off the scoreboard your getting your facts from. I watched the jets and you're in for a rude awakening this season because I know jet fans and as long as you have chad you aren't comfortable, rightfully so.

Did u read what i wrote. We played jax when they were home when they beat quality foes like Dallas, the Jets, Tennessee, and Im not sure if u know this but at home they also beat the world champion Indianopolis Colts. But, On the road they lost to the lowly Redskins, Texans and bills. Also avg-bad teams can stay close to good teams for 1 half like the redskins did to the colts, but the Jets(good, mentally tough teams) did whatever they could to win against the Colts FOR FOUR WHOLE QUARTERS!!! We also werent blown out at all by the colts for the whole game It was close and it stayed that way.

[Redskin in Canada]

Mark my words, no big over-priced free agents this year.

Marked and noted.

Your prediction against Dan Snyder's obsesions...

Has the tiger changed its stripes?

[Mursilis]

Mark my words, no big over-priced free agents this year.

Marked and noted.

Your prediction against Dan Snyder's obsesions...

Has the tiger changed its stripes?

Is the 'tiger' even running the show anymore? It was said by the team that Joe Gibbs would have finally say over player personnel issues when he came back so, AFAIK, Danny just signs the checks. Can anyone name even one player brought in against Joe's wishes since he came back?

[Chris Luva Luva]

Mark my words, no big over-priced free agents this year.

Marked and noted.

Your prediction against Dan Snyder's obsesions...

Has the tiger changed its stripes?

Is the 'tiger' even running the show anymore?

Nobody knows just how involved Danny is.

But we do know that he still has a say in all decisions.

We know that Vinny still has a role.

We're making the same type of moves that Danny would make.

We're achieving the same results that we got when Danny was in control.


The redskins say whatever they want and you have to take it with a grain of salt. Remeber 2% of the playbook? The offense is tearing it up against our defense in practice?

Danny has his foot in the stew and so does Vinny. As long as either of them are involved its trouble. If Gibbs continues to run the team like Danny would, we're in trouble.

[SkinsJock]

I'm with Mursilis on this - I understand what CLL is saying but we all know that he is not exactly going to look at anything involving Snyder and Cerrato without a lot of bias. I think that Cerrato and Snyder are involved but only as part of the FO team and I do not believe Snyder is as responsible for the mistakes this team has made as he used to be.

I really think that Gibbs and Williams are making the decisions and while Snyder and Cerrato are involved in the process the decisions are begining with the coaches and then the final decisions are made at the top. These might be moves that Snyder and Cerrato would have made also but they have 'started' IMO with Gibbs and his coaches and talent evaluators.

Now I'm not saying we have done very well with the 3 off seasons (and drafts) that Gibbs has had but I do think (and fervently hope) that he will demonstrate that he has learnt from the past mistakes (and positives!) and we will see better results this time around.

I look for Gibbs (and Williams, et al) to do a better job this time with both who we have on the team now and who we can add.

I do think that he gets free rein here and this season will go a long way to determining a lot of our future with both coaches and management. I also think that Gibbs (and Snyder) like the current setup. I personally would like to see a GM but that seems remote with the current FO make up.



going to be an interesting period for us - I believe we will see (and soon) how much the mistakes of last year have affected the level of Gibbs and Williams "control".

[Houligan26]

[quote="nyjetsfan69"] Did u read what i wrote. We played jax when they were home when they beat quality foes like Dallas, the Jets, Tennessee, and Im not sure if u know this but at home they also beat the world champion Indianopolis Colts. But, On the road they lost to the lowly Redskins, Texans and bills. Also avg-bad teams can stay close to good teams for 1 half like the redskins did to the colts, but the Jets(good, mentally tough teams) did whatever they could to win against the Colts FOR FOUR WHOLE QUARTERS!!! We also werent blown out at all by the colts for the whole game It was close and it stayed that way. [/quote]

You lost 41-0, how pathetic is it to make the excuse of being on the road. Just stop whining because you are one of those jet fans that think they get no respect. Well you don't, nobody in the league fears you at all. You had one quality win the whole season, a cupcake schedule in a cupcake division. Leave it at that. Don't be a hypocrite, a kick return kept you in the indy game yet you also say our win isn't real because of a blocked kick. There is no need to argue, just by how you talk I can sense you never seen the jets win a championship, too young.

[nyjetsfan69]

You lost 41-0, how pathetic is it to make the excuse of being on the road. Just stop whining because you are one of those jet fans that think they get no respect. Well you don't, nobody in the league fears you at all. You had one quality win the whole season, a cupcake schedule in a cupcake division. Leave it at that. Don't be a hypocrite, a kick return kept you in the indy game yet you also say our win isn't real because of a blocked kick. There is no need to argue, just by how you talk I can sense you never seen the jets win a championship, too young.[/quote]

nobody fears the jets? I think that more teams fear the Florida Gators than the redskins right now. I mean the gators have at least 2 nfl prospects so i can see why the redskins would lose that game. Just overmatched by the chomp.

[Houligan26]

You entered the realm of speaking like a complete fool. You are starting to sound like a cowboy fan, pretty weak. I am positive our record looks a lot different with your cupcake schedule and fortune with injuries but still it doesn't matter. We both ended up home, only you delayed it a week. The difference between you and I is I have seen a championship. Which brings me to my initial point that got you so flustered, the jets aren't committed to winning thus they will never win. I am done.

[nyjetsfan69]

You entered the realm of speaking like a complete fool. You are starting to sound like a cowboy fan, pretty weak. I am positive our record looks a lot different with your cupcake schedule and fortune with injuries but still it doesn't matter. We both ended up home, only you delayed it a week. The difference between you and I is I have seen a championship. Which brings me to my initial point that got you so flustered, the jets aren't committed to winning thus they will never win. I am done.

But your championship does not have the significance that the jets have. If the Redskins had neverwon a superbowl nobody would have noticed, but without the Jets lone sujperbowl win the NFL would not have existed. In fact, there would be no merger and the nfl would appear to be better than the AFL. Oh yea, you talk about the jets cupcake schedule, but the nfc is a joke and everyone knows it. We may have only lasted just an extra week, but going to the playoffs and losing right away is alot better in history speaking than having a losing record like the...

[Redskin in Canada]

I think that Cerrato and Snyder are involved but only as part of the FO team and I do not believe Snyder is as responsible for the mistakes this team has made as he used to be.

Ah! Long time since I do not have a significant difference of opinion with Jocko.

Well, let's see:

Hypothesis 1: Vinny has -nothing- to do with this mess. But let's refine the definition of MESS a bit more for clarity and precision purposes.

a) Vinny has no responsibility whatsoever about the direction the team has gone in general player recruitment be that the Draft or Free Agency.

b) Let's add to that that he has had no responsibility whatsoever in the selection of coaching staff members.

c) To add the top and last cherry to the cake, he has had no responsibility whatsoever about talent evaluation and making sure that our scouting team puts great and preferably inexpensive young players in front of the coaches to grade and potentially choose.

Good enough? Fine. If the above is accepted as the three premises supporting this hypothesis ...

What the HELL is an FO executive seating in that DARN office doing every single day earning a six figure salary or more every year since he came here??? Is his FO job judging how much can prices for fake jerseys or game tickets be raised? Performing the "quality control"of the Cheer-leading Squad? Designing Raider wannabe black jerseys for the silly Skins fans? Charging extravagant amounts of money for a miserable water bottle during training camp? Selling parking spaces under rather dubious legal circumstances during the regular season?

Well, I mean, if the players, all of whom put their physical and psychological integrity on the field every play of every game, are ACCOUNTABLE for their performance, What makes a FO executive who has produced NOTHING but DISMAL results, REPEATEDLY, worth keeping if he has not done anything but say YES to the boss?

TONS of players and coaches have come and gone and they have been held ACCOUNTABLE for their actions. They have been cut, released and fired. What makes this man alright? Just based on his past record with us, no player, coach or executive would be able to keep his job.

If Vinny has no responsibility whatsoever now on any of the three items identified above -and- he was responsible for our previous mess before Joe came, HE SHOULD GO!!!

Oh man, but I am only getting started. Let us, for the sake of completeness, take the other alternative:

Hypothesis 2: Vinny has -something- to do with this mess. But let's refine the definition of MESS a bit more for clarity and precision purposes.

a) Vinny has some responsibility about the direction the team has gone in general player recruitment be that the Draft or Free Agency.

b) Let's add to that that he has had some responsibility in the selection of coaching staff members.

c) To add the top and last cherry to the cake, he has had some responsibility about talent evaluation and making sure that our scouting team puts great and preferably inexpensive young players in front of the coaches to grade and potentially choose.

Well then, the conclusion of the case would be clear, right? Based on his past record and the current results, Vinny should go. The fact that EVEN Joe Gibbs can do little with this FO weighing on his shoulders should be a signal that something deeper that a game plan is at stake in our failures.

The problem is that the whole thing has a FAR more sinister twist to it. You see? The FO has made sure that YOU and I do not know exactly what is the degree of involvement by Vinny on the three items identified above. He is PROTECTED from any responsibility because ALL OF YOU AND ME will feel that the recruiting mistakes of players lie on the shoulders of the COACHES and not him.

Worse yet, Joe Gibbs has given this man the perfect ALIBI by arguing that a Committee makes these choices. In true Gibbs fashion, he will always be ready to assume FULL responsibility for anything that goes wrong. He has done so in the past and some fans actually believe that instead of looking at it as a measure of HONESTY and ACCOUNTABILITY.

If Dan Snyder is half the businessman that he is given credit for in the media and entertainment world, he should understand that the common denominator of his FAILURE AS AN OWNER has been Vinny Cerrato.

There, you have it. I am waiting for a response. CLL needs not follow it up. I will.

[PulpExposure]

We're achieving the same results that we got when Danny was in control.

Chris, I know you haven't watched the Skins for too long, but look at it this way.

Since Snyder took over in 1999, the Skins have been to the playoffs twice. Last time we had been in the playoffs was 1992.

When John Kent Cooke was in charge, from 1993-1998, our best season was a 9-7 abomination, where we started 8-1 and ended 9-7.

Snyder's ways at least were working better than what we had before. Passive owner with a GM (charley casserly).

It's not like Snyder walked into a successful franchise and screwed it up. For most of the 90's, we were the Detroit Lions of the NFL, before Snyder got here. A just pathetic franchise. Now we're just sorry...

[SkinsJock]

I am waiting for a response. CLL needs not follow it up. I will.

sorry for the delay - I am still recovering from the "directive" - I will try and emulate this performance shortly no need for back-ups yet I think the aussies can handle this minor disturbance iin the north counties

[SkinsJock]

I think that Cerrato and Snyder are involved but only as part of the FO team and I do not believe Snyder is as responsible for the mistakes this team has made as he used to be.

Ah! Long time since I do not have a significant difference of opinion with Jocko.

I'm not sure that we are all that far apart here, but lets analyze a little further

Hypothesis 1: Vinny has -nothing- to do with this mess. But let's refine the definition of MESS a bit more for clarity and precision purposes.

a) Vinny has no responsibility whatsoever about the direction the team has gone in general player recruitment be that the Draft or Free Agency.

b) Let's add to that that he has had no responsibility whatsoever in the selection of coaching staff members.

c) To add the top and last cherry to the cake, he has had no responsibility whatsoever about talent evaluation and making sure that our scouting team puts great and preferably inexpensive young players in front of the coaches to grade and potentially choose.

Good enough? Fine. If the above is accepted as the three premises supporting this hypothesis ...

What the HELL is an FO executive seating in that DARN office doing every single day earning a six figure salary or more every year since he came here??? Is his FO job judging how much can prices for fake jerseys or game tickets be raised? Performing the "quality control"of the Cheer-leading Squad? Designing Raider wannabe black jerseys for the silly Skins fans? Charging extravagant amounts of money for a miserable water bottle during training camp? Selling parking spaces under rather dubious legal circumstances during the regular season?

Well, I mean, if the players, all of whom put their physical and psychological integrity on the field every play of every game, are ACCOUNTABLE for their performance, What makes a FO executive who has produced NOTHING but DISMAL results, REPEATEDLY, worth keeping if he has not done anything but say YES to the boss?

TONS of players and coaches have come and gone and they have been held ACCOUNTABLE for their actions. They have been cut, released and fired. What makes this man alright? Just based on his past record with us, no player, coach or executive would be able to keep his job.

If Vinny has no responsibility whatsoever now on any of the three items identified above -and- he was responsible for our previous mess before Joe came, HE SHOULD GO!!!

I can't really defend Cerrato entirely because I agree with the "exagerated" scenarios to a certain extent (my my RiC! you do have some issues, don't you ) - I think you could have added that IF Cerrato is not contributing and Snyder (& Gibbs) are not making any waves so to speak then I am just assuming that perhaps he is not as bad as you are assuming and while I think he may be a bit of a 'yes man' I do not think Snyder (or Gibbs) would put up with that for this long. Cerrato was something of a success before he met Snyder and I assume he has not entirely blown his calls on what we have done because he is still here.

I hope you do not mistake what I'm saying here as any form of support for Snyder or Cerrato - I think they are both very much to blame for our situation but my point about these 2 is that they now have Gibbs in the equation and they alone are not as responsible as I believe they were for our past transgressions.

Hypothesis 2: Vinny has -something- to do with this mess. But let's refine the definition of MESS a bit more for clarity and precision purposes.

a) Vinny has some responsibility about the direction the team has gone in general player recruitment be that the Draft or Free Agency.

b) Let's add to that that he has had some responsibility in the selection of coaching staff members.

c) To add the top and last cherry to the cake, he has had some responsibility about talent evaluation and making sure that our scouting team puts great and preferably inexpensive young players in front of the coaches to grade and potentially choose.

Well then, the conclusion of the case would be clear, right? Based on his past record and the current results, Vinny should go. The fact that EVEN Joe Gibbs can do little with this FO weighing on his shoulders should be a signal that something deeper that a game plan is at stake in our failures.

The problem is that the whole thing has a FAR more sinister twist to it. You see? The FO has made sure that YOU and I do not know exactly what is the degree of involvement by Vinny on the three items identified above. He is PROTECTED from any responsibility because ALL OF YOU AND ME will feel that the recruiting mistakes of players lie on the shoulders of the COACHES and not him.

Worse yet, Joe Gibbs has given this man the perfect ALIBI by arguing that a Committee makes these choices. In true Gibbs fashion, he will always be ready to assume FULL responsibility for anything that goes wrong. He has done so in the past and some fans actually believe that instead of looking at it as a measure of HONESTY and ACCOUNTABILITY.

If Dan Snyder is half the businessman that he is given credit for in the media and entertainment world, he should understand that the common denominator of his FAILURE AS AN OWNER has been Vinny Cerrato.

I would agree with this - BUT.... I think he is still here only because he must still be playing a part and again has not really demonstrated that he is as incompetent to Snyder & Gibbs - I really believe that while Gibbs has put a damper on Snyder's enthusiasm and Vinny's player evaluations he also has not been entirely free of his mistakes.

Really we are not that far apart here I am of the opinion that we would be a lot better off without Cerrato BUT he must not be doing as bad as we all think. I do think also that Snyder and Cerrato have had to let the player decisions initially come from both Williams and Gibbs and then they all with I'm sure some other assistance have made the ultimate decisions. I think they have made some mistakes and they have made some good calls but it now comes down IMO to this FA period and draft and ultimately the success we have based on those calls.

IF this season is a success we are screwed in one sense because Gibbs will not then be forced to consider a GM and he and Snyder will be somewhat vindicated for keeping Cerrato around.

I would venture to suggest that I feel the team would be better off without Cerrato and find itself a GM that will be a better barometer than someone who just goes with the flow.




Back on topic - Based on what has happened since Gibbs got back I hope he (and "they") have learned and that is why I do not see us paying too much for a free agent (Clements) in a position that does not help the secondary as much as if we shore up the defensive line and find a MLB that is going to both benefit from some protection in front of him and be very effective against the run. This combined with more financially responsible additions to the secondary will benefit the whole D

That being said we do not know the real status of our secondary - we might need a decent CB! I just think a better front seven will make a decent secondary look a lot better than adding to the CB position without really improving our front 7.



with this group anything can and will happen

[Redskin in Canada]

1 ) I'm not sure that we are all that far apart here, but lets analyze a little further

...

2) I would venture to suggest that I feel the team would be better off without Cerrato and find itself a GM that will be a better barometer than someone who just goes with the flow.

...

3) with this group anything can and will happen

This post is the best approach I have ever seen in this board to cover all bases and still try to spin the original position.

Rumours abound about the misuse of the conjunction "BUT" as a bad word in the realm of debate. If this was a real debate, the use of the word BUT would be interpreted as a negative and not the limit of the veracity of the clasue that precedes it. Example: This is true BUT xyz ...

And I lost count of the number of BUTs in the post. (No pun intended).

Now, let us go back to items 1, 2 and 3 identified in your post here:

1) You are right BUT not quite.

We are not far apart because we basically agree. BUT we are far apart because of the intensity with which I hold Cerrato accountable for our failures.

2) You venture right BUT not quite far enough. See above.

3) You are definitely right BUT how can I argue against a statement like that?

Just to make sure we cover all potential uses of the word BUT.

[SkinsJock]

I feel your pain - I just have to hope you can make it through the next 6 weeks

[SkinsJock]

The closer we get to Free Agency the more angst I sense from my good buddies RiC, Hailskins and CLL.

I am a little concerned about Vinny however I am optimistic because I have a lot of faith in Gibbs ability "to adjust". He has not been as great as we all expected on this return, true, however I am hopeful that he will lead the recovery and that the mistakes learned from the past few years have been enough for him to now get this team back on track.

About Cerrato - that is still a huge concern - there's no 'but' about it

I had to move around that big butt of yours

[1niksder]

The closer we get to Free Agency the more angst I sense from my good buddies RiC, Hailskins and CLL.

I am a little concerned about VC but my optimism is based on the fact that I have a lot of faith in Gibbs ability "to adjust". He has not been as great as we all expected on this return but I am hopeful that he will lead the recovery and that the mistakes learned from the past few years have been enough for him to now get this team back on track.

About Cerrato - that is still a huge concern - there's no 'but' about it

Gibbs was away from the game for quite awhile,but he's been back for 3 seasons and headed into his 4th offseason. I can wait for free agency to start this year.

Year 1 Gibbs when players under contract on other teams with big names and signed mid-level free agents. The next year he was again low level on the free agent market. Last year he let someone get in his ear and we saw the outcome.

Joe Gibbs is saying all the right things, let's see if Dock is under contract before we start to worry.

No reason to worry about Vinny - he's like a itch you can't get use too. Sooner or later you'll get use to him, and once it's gone you'll be able to reach that area.

[Redskin in Canada]

I am a little concerned about Vinny however I am optimistic because I have a lot of faith in Gibbs ability "to adjust". He has not been as great as we all expected on this return, true, however I am hopeful that he will lead the recovery and that the mistakes learned from the past few years have been enough for him to now get this team back on track.

Look, let us establish the premises of my positions:

a) Joe Gibbs is the best and brightest coach I have ever had the pleasure to witness coach.
b) Joe Gibbs is the most decent and honest man from among those I know anything about in sports.

Let me add to that (as opposed to the use of the dreaded word)

1) Joe can not do it all.
2) Joe must not try to do it all.
3) Joe is under tremendous pressure in his personal family life.

Joe Gibbs, the best coach on earth, is not the scout department. Joe, the best coach on earth, does not have enough hours in the days or months to do the ENTIRE job that should be spread and MUST be carried out by OTHERS.

How long has it been since we discovered a young talented player in the later rounds of a draft (or walk-in or FA) who develops into a pro-bowl type of player during the first two seasons with us? I can tell you quite a number of these in other teams (such as the Ravens, Colts, etc)

Instead, we are unanimously agreed in the NFL to be over-spenders for money grabbing players (and their no less hungry and greedy business agents) who walk away into retirement after a couple of seasons with us. I am embarrassed. Please do not make me bring up names of a few "players" who bring back nothing but painful memories to ALL of us.

With the sole exception of Joe Gibbs, this ENTIRE FO should be fired. Their public relations with the fans STINK. Please do not get me started with Al Michaels and the self-promoting media outlet of CLOWNS that Vinny put in place. They are PATHETIC, SELFISH and RIDICULOUS.

I swear that if it was not for my past HISTORY as a fan and the return of JOE GIBBS, as a young new fan, the Dan Snyder - Vinny Cerrato Washington Redskins would be one of the last teams for me to cheer for in the NFL. Not only due to their management of football operations butr the management of "business" side due to the way they treat Redskins fans trying to squeeze every last penny out of their pockets.

[Redskin in Canada]

We're achieving the same results that we got when Danny was in control.

Chris, I know you haven't watched the Skins for too long, but look at it this way.

Since Snyder took over in 1999, the Skins have been to the playoffs twice. Last time we had been in the playoffs was 1992.

When John Kent Cooke was in charge, from 1993-1998, our best season was a 9-7 abomination, where we started 8-1 and ended 9-7.

Snyder's ways at least were working better than what we had before. Passive owner with a GM (charley casserly).

It's not like Snyder walked into a successful franchise and screwed it up. For most of the 90's, we were the Detroit Lions of the NFL, before Snyder got here. A just pathetic franchise. Now we're just sorry...

CLL is too young to answer this post. But I am willing to accept the invitation to the dance. Shall we?

I always had a love-hate relationship with JCK for a number of reasons. Having said that, there is no question whatsoever in my mind that JCK is heads and shoulders above Dan Snyder as an owner in the HISTORY of the Washington Redskins.

I wish to conclude this initial post without firing any statistics or anecdotes at you. I will save some of these for later posts. But I wish to conclude that I know you as a serious and knowledgeable poster who has been probably a hardcore fan for as many years as I have or more. So, the music started ... Shall we?

[PulpExposure]

I wish to conclude this initial post without firing any statistics or anecdotes at you. I will save some of these for later posts. But I wish to conclude that I know you as a serious and knowledgeable poster who has been probably a hardcore fan for as many years as I have or more. So, the music started ... Shall we?

Appreciate the respect, and it goes back to you as well. I will be more than happy to hear and learn what you have to say about JoKC.

[Redskin in Canada]

Let us take advantage of this opportunity to put some background on the table for the younger posters in this board:

http://www.jackkentcookefoundation.org/ ... ge=6536536

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... rofile.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kent_Cooke

Part owner from 1961 to 1974
Majority owner from 1974 to 1985
Sole owner from 1985 to 1996.

Numerous playoff appearances, four NFC championships, five NFC East division titles, five superbowl appearances, and three superbowl championships.

Not to mention a Hamilton, Ontario, Canada - born and self-made man.

I have not started to fire anecdotes, some from Joe Gibbs himself. What do you have to show for Mr. Snyder? Seriously, I mean.