Gun ownership

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:23 am

I used to have a government issued M-16. Great weapon, durable, accurate at long distances. My favorite weapon is an automatic grenade launcher. I only got to fire it once, but WOW!
10 grenades, 10 seconds, 300 yards out. :shock:

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:36 am

The casings thing I am clearly wrong on though I didn't pull that out of nowhere but, of course, I can't find where I read it. I messed that up in some fashion. But to your point about making their own ammo, it still acted as an impediment to usage. Lastly, as for the ownership of weapons, what I've read suggests that gun ownership was, in fact, rare and that while a small percentage of colonists owned weapons for hunting, colonists armed themselves by raiding existing British forts and from weapons (especially gun powder) provided by France.

As a follow up, pretty much every argument I am reading about colonial gun ownership is coming from biased sources, I've yet to see something definitive in either direction. Regardless of that, I stand by my initial argument.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:52 am

Fios wrote:The casings thing I am clearly wrong on though I didn't pull that out of nowhere but, of course, I can't find where I read it. I messed that up in some fashion. But to your point about making their own ammo, it still acted as an impediment to usage. Lastly, as for the ownership of weapons, what I've read suggests that gun ownership was, in fact, rare and that while a small percentage of colonists owned weapons for hunting, colonists armed themselves by raiding existing British forts and from weapons (especially gun powder) provided by France.

As a follow up, pretty much every argument I am reading about colonial gun ownership is coming from biased sources, I've yet to see something definitive in either direction. Regardless of that, I stand by my initial argument and the idea that gun regulation was common.

It depends where you were, in the western areas gun ownership was common. Again the issue is do we ignore or change the Constitution? Given the placement in the Bill of Rights it clearly is a right of the people, not government. And the phrase "shall not be infringed" is pretty darn clear.

BTW, unlike Republicans and Democrats, my view on changing the Constitution is not just to support my positions. I am pro-choice but strongly believe Roe v. Wade is an abomination to the Constitution. It is pure crap there is a right to an abortion in the Constitution. It is not addressed and is therefore the pervue of the States. I would be open to adding an amendment through the Constitutional process, but not 9 people creating one.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:38 pm

JansenFan wrote:I used to have a government issued M-16. Great weapon, durable, accurate at long distances. My favorite weapon is an automatic grenade launcher. I only got to fire it once, but WOW!
10 grenades, 10 seconds, 300 yards out.

I would love to shoot either the m-16 or the grenade launcher. I want my next gun to be an AK-47. The gun is cheaper and so is the ammo. I have no reason in particular why I want the gun other than I would like to own and shoot an assualt rifle and that so happens to be one of the cheapest.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:43 pm

Cappster wrote:
JansenFan wrote:I used to have a government issued M-16. Great weapon, durable, accurate at long distances. My favorite weapon is an automatic grenade launcher. I only got to fire it once, but WOW!
10 grenades, 10 seconds, 300 yards out.

I would love to shoot either the m-16 or the grenade launcher. I want my next gun to be an AK-47. The gun is cheaper and so is the ammo. I have no reason in particular why I want the gun other than I would like to own and shoot an assualt rifle and that so happens to be one of the cheapest.

Some friends of mine recently picked up an AK-47, I would dearly love to fire it

DesertSkin · Post by **DesertSkin** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:07 pm

My favorite is the 120mm smooth bore cannon with a coaxed M240. And the M2 (50 Cal) on top is pretty nice too.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:09 pm

So I e-mailed a friend who is a a historian about the colonial gun ownership thing and this was his reply:

early colonists had to serve in the militia and the guns were owned by the crown. other than that, the early colonist (1607-1644, at least) were at constant war with the locals so it would be considered mission critical to have some kind of home defense. most farmers, who were landowners, would have also served in the militia. most men would have to know how to be comfortable with firearms.
A gun may not have been the cheapest item to buy, but like a car, you'd save up to have one and you would take care of it. Also, guns were useful for hunting and their popularity among native Americans made them a prized trading items. in fact, enough guns were stolen for trading purposes that they made a law directly addressing the stealing of arms from warehouses.
People have always found weapons useful, so despite what numbers the writer may have found (which, sometimes stats can be very contrary) there has always been a demand and a need for guns.
For example, many of the colonist militia that fought in our revolution, as
well as the civil war, brought their own guns to the fight. Pistols, shotguns, old flintlocks. There is an old anecdote about a confederate officer joking that the confederate home units wore "multiforms" because their dress and armament were all different.

So it would appear (and he knows his stuff) that guns weren't cheap but were more widespread in terms of ownership than what I had been lead to believe.

TincoSkin · Post by **TincoSkin** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:06 pm

the point is, if the people are armed then no government can rule then by force. only then is a democracy safe.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:18 pm

TincoSkin wrote:the point is, if the people are armed then no government can rule then by force. only then is a democracy safe.

First of all I'm totally pro-second amendment. I believe by the right to bear arms"shall not be infringed" they meant the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed.'

But in colonial times, the technology of the military and the citizenry was the same. Today, the weapons of the military are SO advanced I don't think homeowners with even semi-automatics can really counter the military. I think our best defense from the government today is information.

I think guns are our best defense against criminals because that is where the government is failing to protect us. Think about if bank robbers, hijackers etc never knew who was armed. The problem with gun laws to day is they are devastating for honest citizens and a slap on the wrist for criminals demonstrating once again the overt stupidity of government and the left. We are safer if criminals are armed and honest citizens are not. Yeah.

Just an opinion.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:02 pm

TincoSkin wrote:the point is, if the people are armed then no government can rule then by force. only then is a democracy safe.

If the people can't arm themselves, there is no democracy.

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:02 am

My favorite is the 120mm smooth bore cannon with a coaxed M240. And the M2 (50 Cal) on top is pretty nice too.

Y'all should see the size of his gun cabinet.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:05 am

Countertrey wrote:
My favorite is the 120mm smooth bore cannon with a coaxed M240. And the M2 (50 Cal) on top is pretty nice too.

Y'all should see the size of his gun cabinet.

Look at the user name ... he's got the room

And can hit his target from a lot further distance, even if he missed I don't think the crackheads would come back.

welch · Post by **welch** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:34 am

Gee. if you really love those high-powered assault rifles, please join the Army. They can find you an M-16, or one of those new, light-weight, collapsible stock replacements. Plenty available. They have another weapon called a "SAW"...sure to make you heart sing and your ears ring. If you want to make a bog "boom", they have even larger weapons. How about the field artillery? How about an Abrams tank?

Why foodle around with 16-shot semi-automic pistols when you can volunteer for the major leagues of gun-shooting?

Try goarmy.com, at http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp. They're ready for your call or email.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:38 am

They have another weapon called a "SAW"...sure to make you heart sing and your ears ring.

I'll take a couple of LAWs over a SAW anyday. Like and easy to carry, sure you only get one shot. That's why I said a couple :wink:

And that M16 better have a M203 attached or you can keep it :evil:

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:12 am

Lauer Custom Arrow Gun 7722. The only piece I still have, aside from my vintage Star Trek Phaser, which still lights up.
In younger days, I'd have a .22 for checking trap lines...but all that stuff went out the window (not literally) when I married.
The Lauer can't be operated easily by a kid, and the "darts" are kept far and away from the gun itself.

welch · Post by **welch** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:47 am

And that M16 better have a M203 attached or you can keep it

Big advantage of the new weapon -- an M-4, I think it's called -- is that it weights only about 5 pounds. The M-16 weighs about 15 pounds.

Add 70 pounds of body armor, and the extra 15 pounds begins isn't fun, or so I hear.

Law versus SAW...don't know. I know that in a recent traing excerise, in which a convoy was ambushed, a SAW in the tail-end HumVee mowed down a bunch of "insurgents".

So, to repeat, if you want to handle some first class weapons, join the Army -- or the Marines.

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:24 am

welch wrote:Gee. if you really love those high-powered assault rifles, please join the Army. They can find you an M-16, or one of those new, light-weight, collapsible stock replacements. Plenty available. They have another weapon called a "SAW"...sure to make you heart sing and your ears ring. If you want to make a bog "boom", they have even larger weapons. How about the field artillery? How about an Abrams tank?

Why foodle around with 16-shot semi-automic pistols when you can volunteer for the major leagues of gun-shooting?

Try goarmy.com, at http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp. They're ready for your call or email.

Why do we have to join the army to exercise our right to bear arms? If I get drafted I will gladly go but I am not down with the military lifestyle. You don't have to join the military to have a folding stock on your gun (atleast not anymore). Why do you fear law abiding citizens with guns? Psychos are still going to get whatever kind of gun they want so why can't the rest of us have what we want?

I have been to gun shows that sell MP5's with semi auto but they also have the replacement stock that will convert it to full auto. The cost is out of my budget range our else I would buy one. I don't want to kill anybody but rather shoot the crap out of some watermelons. Place more blame on the indivudals that use guns in the wrong way than the guns themselves.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:39 am

Cappster wrote:Why do we have to join the army to exercise our right to bear arms? If I get drafted I will gladly go but I am not down with the military lifestyle. You don't have to join the military to have a folding stock on your gun (atleast not anymore). Why do you fear law abiding citizens with guns? Psychos are still going to get whatever kind of gun they want so why can't the rest of us have what we want?

He didn't say you couldn't bear arms and he didn't say you had to join the Army. He said if you want to play with one of these:

That's where you would have to go

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:44 am

Still, I think the chance to shoot specialized weapons is a really, really, really, really, really, really stupid reason to join the Army.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:48 am

Skinsfan55 wrote:Still, I think the chance to shoot specialized weapons is a really, really, really, really, really, really stupid reason to join the Army.

Really

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:50 am

1niksder wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:Still, I think the chance to shoot specialized weapons is a really, really, really, really, really, really stupid reason to join the Army.

Really

Since we're on topic here, I just joined the local gun club tonight. Now I have like 4 ranges in town I can use (one is an indoor facility) plus access to a lot of cool classes, like hunter safety, concealed carry, etc.

I'm also in the loop to find out about gun swaps, and other types of sales. Where do you guys shoot?

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:19 am

Skinsfan55 wrote:
1niksder wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:Still, I think the chance to shoot specialized weapons is a really, really, really, really, really, really stupid reason to join the Army.

Really

Since we're on topic here, I just joined the local gun club tonight. Now I have like 4 ranges in town I can use (one is an indoor facility) plus access to a lot of cool classes, like hunter safety, concealed carry, etc.

I'm also in the loop to find out about gun swaps, and other types of sales. Where do you guys shoot?

I like to go to the NRA building right up from Centreville. They have the automated target sliders. You punch in 30ft and it goes out by itself. $25 for a year membership.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:39 am

Cappster wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:
1niksder wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:Still, I think the chance to shoot specialized weapons is a really, really, really, really, really, really stupid reason to join the Army.

Really

Since we're on topic here, I just joined the local gun club tonight. Now I have like 4 ranges in town I can use (one is an indoor facility) plus access to a lot of cool classes, like hunter safety, concealed carry, etc.

I'm also in the loop to find out about gun swaps, and other types of sales. Where do you guys shoot?

I like to go to the NRA building right up from Centreville. They have the automated target sliders. You punch in 30ft and it goes out by itself. $25 for a year membership.

Cappster: Is that the building you can see from 66 near Fair Oaks?

Cappster · Post by **Cappster** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:14 am

Fios wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:
1niksder wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:Still, I think the chance to shoot specialized weapons is a really, really, really, really, really, really stupid reason to join the Army.

Really

Since we're on topic here, I just joined the local gun club tonight. Now I have like 4 ranges in town I can use (one is an indoor facility) plus access to a lot of cool classes, like hunter safety, concealed carry, etc.

I'm also in the loop to find out about gun swaps, and other types of sales. Where do you guys shoot?

I like to go to the NRA building right up from Centreville. They have the automated target sliders. You punch in 30ft and it goes out by itself. $25 for a year membership.
Cappster: Is that the building you can see from 66 near Fair Oaks?

Yes it is. They have a gun range in the basement. In order to shoot there you have to take an "open book" quiz that they give you. Also, if you go with someone that has a membership, you do not have to have one yourself. Its the nicest range I have ever been to.

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:59 am

I just might know someone in AZ who owns an Ak47. Not sure if its legal or not but anyways, that gun is awsome. Its really tough to shoot because from long ranges, its hard to be accurate even with a sniper scope on it. the bullet seems to drift a lot. Anyways, we shoot in the desert about every time we go. Mainly the AK, 12 guage, 45s, and a Kimber. I normally shoot the Glocks because of the way it handles. I grew up in the Country but now live in the city. I would own a guy but my wife is a bit concerned because she doesn't want it to get used on us should someone break in. Her cousin is a police officer but we are ganging up on her so I can get a new one. We will see.