2006 Mid-Term Elections

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:42 am

http://goofyblog.net/new-congress-accom ... -12-years/

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:55 am

Fios wrote:So you're omniscient then when it comes to my beliefs? Helpful trait Going to be rather difficult to have a reasonable discussion when only you can define what it is that I think.

If I say Hitler was moderate, does that not pretty much make me a Nazi? The Post is among the worst of the elitist left media, only a true leftist could call them "moderate."

And I find your statement as a moderator on an opinion site that I am "defining" you when I express an opinion perplexing. I was stating an opinion on a discussion forum. So sue me.

But back to the question, give me some examples of significant positions you just think the left is full of crap on. Lest you call me a Republican (you didn't, but I'll go first anyway), here are positions I disagree with Republicans on.

- I am pro-choice
- I oppose the war in Iraq
- I believe all drugs should be legal
- I believe prostitution should be legal
- I believe gambling should be legal
- I believe our military should be only in the US and international waters, be far smaller and used only for defensive purposes
- I do not believe our government should be supporting corporations (only free markets)

I'm libertarian BTW, not right. But I call myself small L becuase I don't like the Libertarian party either because they naively refuse to pay any price at all to live in a society. Though with their poor people skills they probably shouldn't live in society.

How bout you, what makes you moderate?

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:43 pm

only a true leftist could call them "moderate."

I consider them slightly left of center. This country has been devolving towards the Right ever since Reagan, IMO. So, who knows - In the early eighties they might have seemed more maintream to you (and me).

I consider myself a bit to the Left, at least in comparisson with today's populace. I honestly can't think of a single issue that I'm unable to allign myself with that you, at least, would consider Left.

The funny thing is, I've never felt so far left as I do now. This might have some to do with my progression a litle in that direction but mostly this is because I'm disgusted with what has happened the last six years living with this incompetent (and what will some day prove to be criminal) administration. I know a lot of people who feel the same way I do - They never considered themselves very political (or Left) until these past several years.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:45 pm

- I am pro-choice
- I oppose the war in Iraq
- I believe all drugs should be legal
- I believe prostitution should be legal
- I believe gambling should be legal
- I believe our military should be only in the US and international waters, be far smaller and used only for defensive purposes
- I do not believe our government should be supporting corporations (only free markets)

Maybe the questions should be - Then well, why don't you consider yourself Left?

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:46 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If I say Hitler was moderate, does that not pretty much make me a Nazi? The Post is among the worst of the elitist left media, only a true leftist could call them "moderate."

And I find your statement as a moderator on an opinion site that I am "defining" you when I express an opinion perplexing. I was stating an opinion on a discussion forum. So sue me.

But back to the question, give me some examples of significant positions you just think the left is full of crap on. Lest you call me a Republican (you didn't, but I'll go first anyway), here are positions I disagree with Republicans on.

- I am pro-choice
- I oppose the war in Iraq
- I believe all drugs should be legal
- I believe prostitution should be legal
- I believe gambling should be legal
- I believe our military should be only in the US and international waters, be far smaller and used only for defensive purposes
- I do not believe our government should be supporting corporations (only free markets)

I'm libertarian BTW, not right. But I call myself small L becuase I don't like the Libertarian party either because they naively refuse to pay any price at all to live in a society. Though with their poor people skills they probably shouldn't live in society.

How bout you, what makes you moderate?

Um, Hitler wasn't moderate, that's not a matter of opinion, it's a question of fact. Exterminating groups of human beings isn't moderate behavior. You said I am "hard left" and, essentially, unwilling or unable to admit it which would suggest you have a comprehensive knowledge of the things that I think. I didn't question your right to have an opinion, nor is it clear to me how my role as a moderator is a factor in this discussion.
I can be of the opinion that the Post is moderate without being "hard left." Those two things are not mutually exclusive. I find it funny that you so vociferously defend your right to an opinion and then state that the Post is hard-left and that anyone who disagrees with that assessment is even further left, as if that is some fact beyond debate.
That is your opinion, YOU see them as hard-left, I do not.
I didn't ever claim to be moderate, I said I have beliefs that are moderating in the liberal sphere.
I don't disagree with any of the points you listed, save that I don't think we should legalize all drugs and I think gambling should be heavily regulated.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:00 pm

ATV wrote:

- I oppose the war in Iraq
- I believe our military should be only in the US and international waters, be far smaller and used only for defensive purposes
- I do not believe our government should be supporting corporations (only free markets)

Maybe the questions should be - Then well, why don't you consider yourself Left?

I think for the reasons that I left above. The democrats have as much war-making in their history as the republicans (although republicans do seem to enjoy it more, IMO).

Members of the left that claim to uphold personal liberty do well to apply that to drugs, prostitution, and gambling. That they don't apply it equally to the rest of our lives (i.e. free markets) is perplexing.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:03 pm

ATV wrote:
only a true leftist could call them "moderate."

I consider them slightly left of center. This country has been devolving towards the Right ever since Reagan, IMO. So, who knows - In the early eighties they might have seemed more maintream to you (and me).

I consider myself a bit to the Left, at least in comparisson with today's populace. I honestly can't think of a single issue that I'm unable to allign myself with that you, at least, would consider Left.

The funny thing is, I've never felt so far left as I do now. This might have some to do with my progression a litle in that direction but mostly this is because I'm disgusted with what has happened the last six years living with this incompetent (and what will some day prove to be criminal) administration. I know a lot of people who feel the same way I do - They never considered themselves very political (or Left) until these past several years.

I keep hearing from the left how the country is going to the right. Can you give me examples? It seems to me both parties are going to the left.

Social security/Medicare - Republicans used to rightly oppose growing these socialist programs. But they just increased benefits by trillions with the prescription drug. The left only criticized it because they wanted more taxes and the program to be run by the government alone, which would have been more expensive and was even left of the left moving Republicans.

Iraq - We bend over backwards to an extent never considered before to avoid civilian casualties. Both are moving left.

Terrorist rights - Democrats demanded and Republicans agreed to give terrorists never on American soil constitutional rights (trial, lawyers etc.) This has NEVER been done in our or any other country's history and is a clear move left by both parties.

Government budget cuts - Republicans who used to believe in smaller government now call slight budget reductions above every economic measure (inflation, GDP) to be "cuts" and Democrats went hysterical calling that slash and burn and got their way. Both moved left.

Immigration - Republicans do nothing and Democrats openly support illegal imigration. Same for Replicans and Democrats move left.

Corporations - We keep increasing the abomination to freedom called the minimum wage, increasing government mandated corporate welfare (medical insurance, etc.).

These are continual movement left by both parties.

There are things that are not really moving left but are certainly not right by historical standards. Iraq (which I oppose) is not an unusual military action by historical standards. Abortion (I'm pro-choice) was illegal the constitution was re-written by the courts. Taxes are not low historically, though we did lower them from recent highs.

In what way is the country actually moving in any meaningfully right?

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:12 pm

ATV wrote:
- I am pro-choice
- I oppose the war in Iraq
- I believe all drugs should be legal
- I believe prostitution should be legal
- I believe gambling should be legal
- I believe our military should be only in the US and international waters, be far smaller and used only for defensive purposes
- I do not believe our government should be supporting corporations (only free markets)

Maybe the questions should be - Then well, why don't you consider yourself Left?

Here are a few
- I support free markets (including Wal-Mart and international outsourcing) and strongly believe in our country's financial markets and corporate system.
- I believe the structure of our social net fosters government dependency more then it helps.
- I believe we should eliminate, not increase the minimum wage
- I oppose most tarriffs and anti-free trade measures
- I strongly support the Fair Tax
- I believe in debate, not shutting it down like the left
- Even when I agree with the government in prinicple I consider it to inept to allow it to do anything other than provide the things that only it can do, like defense and roads.
- While I want a smaller military, I strongly support the military.
- I criticize the press not because I dont' want left views presented but because ONLY left views are presented. I don't like the "leave the thinking to us" attitude of the leftist media.
- Most of all, despite our faults I believe we are by far the greatest country on the face of the earth and find the lefts "blame America first" positions to be idiotic.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:27 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Here are a few:

- I support free markets (including Wal-Mart and international outsourcing) and strongly believe in our country's financial markets and corporate system.

Ditto, I think free markets and free trade are the only way we will ever end rampant poverty. The liberal in me says we should do everything in our power to assists and re-employ those impacted by outsourcing.

- I believe the structure of our social net fosters government dependency more then it helps.

I disagree, especially in the era of welfare reform. I don't think it should be an endless cycle of dependency but I think we're past that.

- I believe we should eliminate, not increase the minimum wage

I disagree, I think it should be indexed to inflation so we have annual, slight increases that business can plan and accommodate for.

- I oppose most tarriffs and anti-free trade measures

Agreed

- I strongly support the Fair Tax

If Fair Tax is Flat Tax, I disagree.

- I believe in debate, not shutting it down like the left

I have no idea what this means

- Even when I agree with the government in prinicple I consider it to inept to allow it to do anything other than provide the things that only it can do, like defense and roads.

I disagree

- While I want a smaller military, I strongly support the military.

Not certain why this is a left or right issue ... I think the biggest travesty facing us, aside from the stupid war, is the way we treat the troops, from their pay to their benefits. It's criminally low.

- I criticize the press not because I dont' want left views presented but because ONLY left views are presented. I don't like the "leave the thinking to us" attitude of the leftist media.

This simply isn't supportable

- Most of all, despite our faults I believe we are by far the greatest country on the face of the earth and find the lefts "blame America first" positions to be idiotic.

I am proud to be an American, always have been, always will be.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:27 pm

Fios wrote:Um, Hitler wasn't moderate, that's not a matter of opinion, it's a question of fact. Exterminating groups of human beings isn't moderate behavior. You said I am "hard left" and, essentially, unwilling or unable to admit it which would suggest you have a comprehensive knowledge of the things that I think. I didn't question your right to have an opinion, nor is it clear to me how my role as a moderator is a factor in this discussion.
I can be of the opinion that the Post is moderate without being "hard left." Those two things are not mutually exclusive. I find it funny that you so vociferously defend your right to an opinion and then state that the Post is hard-left and that anyone who disagrees with that assessment is even further left, as if that is some fact beyond debate.
That is your opinion, YOU see them as hard-left, I do not.
I didn't ever claim to be moderate, I said I have beliefs that are moderating in the liberal sphere.
I don't disagree with any of the points you listed, save that I don't think we should legalize all drugs and I think gambling should be heavily regulated.

Um, the Hitler was an analogy, you seemed to have partially but not fully grasped what I said there. But other then that we're pretty exhausted on moving forward.

I just read a paper day after day for almost 2 decades assuming the truth of Democrat positions and attacking Republicans wherever possible. Critiicizm of Democrats is limited and played down and quickly dropped, criticizm of Republicans is blared and repeated and pounded into the ground. That someone could read that and describe it as moderate cannot be explained except by a hard left declaring themselves to be moderate and using that standard.

BTW, I hate Repubicans as well, I just hate the press being one party. And I do NOT consider myself to be moderate. I am overall hard right on fiscal issues (beyond Republicans) and hard left on social issues (beyond Democrats). I just believe we would be better off if we had a press that represented multiple views.

So let me re-phrase the question since you objected to hard left and objected to my asking how you are moderate. Where do you sepearate in meaningful ways from the hard left?

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:32 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:Members of the left that claim to uphold personal liberty do well to apply that to drugs, prostitution, and gambling. That they don't apply it equally to the rest of our lives (i.e. free markets) is perplexing.

BAM!!!!

Right on, brother. You may not agree with everything I said, but this is the heart of my views. Unlike both parties, I oppose government where possible. I'm not anarchist (no government) I'm limited government. I want defense, police, roads, even a minimal safety net. And government must be involved in ensuring free markets are free. But I want the federal government to do as little as possible and the States to provide some more, but within this philosopy.

Well said, my friend.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:38 pm

Fios wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Here are a few:

- I support free markets (including Wal-Mart and international outsourcing) and strongly believe in our country's financial markets and corporate system.

Ditto, I think free markets and free trade are the only way we will ever end rampant poverty. The liberal in me says we should do everything in our power to assists and re-employ those impacted by outsourcing.

- I believe the structure of our social net fosters government dependency more then it helps.

I disagree, especially in the era of welfare reform. I don't think it should be an endless cycle of dependency but I think we're past that.

- I believe we should eliminate, not increase the minimum wage

I disagree, I think it should be indexed to inflation so we have annual, slight increases that business can plan and accommodate for.

- I oppose most tarriffs and anti-free trade measures

Agreed

- I strongly support the Fair Tax

If Fair Tax is Flat Tax, I disagree.

- I believe in debate, not shutting it down like the left

I have no idea what this means

- Even when I agree with the government in prinicple I consider it to inept to allow it to do anything other than provide the things that only it can do, like defense and roads.

I disagree

- While I want a smaller military, I strongly support the military.

Not certain why this is a left or right issue ... I think the biggest travesty facing us, aside from the stupid war, is the way we treat the troops, from their pay to their benefits. It's criminally low.

- I criticize the press not because I dont' want left views presented but because ONLY left views are presented. I don't like the "leave the thinking to us" attitude of the leftist media.

This simply isn't supportable

- Most of all, despite our faults I believe we are by far the greatest country on the face of the earth and find the lefts "blame America first" positions to be idiotic.

I am proud to be an American, always have been, always will be.

OK, clearly you are left, and you're not disagreeing with that. Your views that are not hard left are you support free trade and free markets, which is good. I agree if you really believe that it is a significant departure from the socialist hard left. You read the press through those liberal eyes and don't see bias, I can't say that makes you hard left though, just left. Though still even the harder left Post makes me wonder, but your support of free trade and markets is probably stronger then not seeing even the strongest left media like the Post for what it is.

BTW, Fair tax is not flat tax it's replacing all taxes with a national sales tax.

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:43 pm

Fios wrote:- I strongly support the Fair Tax

If Fair Tax is Flat Tax, I disagree.

Kazoo is refering to a proposed piece of legislation that is supported by various right-leaning libertarians and some members of congress (about 50 in the House and a few in the Senate, I believe).

http://www.fairtax.org/

It's not a flat tax, it's a national sales tax that utilizes a negative income tax to alleviate how much the poor pay in taxes.

I happen to think that it's a terrible idea

, but I'm just passing the info about it along.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:46 pm

Fios wrote:I don't disagree with any of the points you listed, save that I don't think we should legalize all drugs and I think gambling should be heavily regulated.

I'm curious, do you agree with this statement? "A woman should have access to an abortion becuase what she does with her own body is her own business." How do you reconcile that with "I don't think we should legalize all drugs?" She should be free to terminate a life in her body because it's hers, but not put what she wants in it? How does that makes sense?

I'm consistent, I say she DOES have that right.

And why should consenting adults not be able to place wagers with each other or through businesses freely? BTW, I support government requiring disclosure (e.g., true odds) and ensuring that businesses do not commit fraud (e.g., rigged tables) so if that's what you mean I'm with you and never mind. But if you mean government restricting the free choices of adults, how can you support that as a liberal?

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:48 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Right on, brother. You may not agree with everything I said, but this is the heart of my views. Unlike both parties, I oppose government where possible. I'm not anarchist (no government) I'm limited government. I want defense, police, roads, even a minimal safety net. And government must be involved in ensuring free markets are free. But I want the federal government to do as little as possible and the States to provide some more, but within this philosopy.

You and I probably do agree on a large portion of political ideas for the same philosophical reasons. If one takes the notion of liberty seriously, it is difficult to remain politically affiliated with either of the major parties for very long.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:51 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
Fios wrote:- I strongly support the Fair Tax

If Fair Tax is Flat Tax, I disagree.

Kazoo is refering to a proposed piece of legislation that is supported by various right-leaning libertarians and some members of congress (about 50 in the House and a few in the Senate, I believe).

http://www.fairtax.org/

It's not a flat tax, it's a national sales tax that utilizes a negative income tax to alleviate how much the poor pay in taxes.

I happen to think that it's a terrible idea , but I'm just passing the info about it along.

What's terrible about it? It reduces waste (CPAs, tax lawyers, corporate staff dedicated to taxes, corporate incentives driven by taxes not efficiency) eliminates all taxes for the poor (in fact the ultra poor make money on taxes), shifts the burden of taxes from US to foreign companies, incents foreign investment in the US (for that reason), forces the cash society to become taxpayers and elminates a complicated system with nothing to do with "fairness."

The only losers are politicans who can't use the tax code to line their war chests. I consider that a good thing, personally.

And from a privacy perspective, we would eliminate an organization that tracks all our income, investments, money movements, expenditures, charitible contributions. Liberals have a cow because they can't call Yemen and discuss making bombs and have no interest in the biggest threat by far of them all to our privacy.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:59 pm

I support free markets (including Wal-Mart and international outsourcing) and strongly believe in our country's financial markets and corporate system.

Yea, well, who doesn't? I would disagree that being Left precludes you from agreeing with this. I suspect you mean to say you support totally unregulated finacial systems, like we might have had before FDR? If so, then yea - This wouldn't be Left.

I believe the structure of our social net fosters government dependency more then it helps.

Ok, while I disagree, this also wouldn't be Left.

I believe we should eliminate, not increase the minimum wage.
Ok, this is definetly not Left.

Ok, while I disagree, this also wouldn't be Left.

I oppose most tarriffs and anti-free trade measures

This could probably be lumped in with the first one.

I strongly support the Fair Tax

Fair Tax, LOL. I think you mean a Flat Tax. Yes, this is definetly not Left.

I believe in debate, not shutting it down like the left

Ok, wrong, I think you meant the Right. Have you ever watched Sean Hannity (surely)?

Even when I agree with the government in prinicple I consider it to inept to allow it to do anything other than provide the things that only it can do, like defense and roads.

This sounds like you'd support Anarchy then. This belief doesn't seem either Left OR Right to me.

While I want a smaller military, I strongly support the military.

Uh, by today's standards, I consider this to be Left.

I criticize the press not because I dont' want left views presented but because ONLY left views are presented. I don't like the "leave the thinking to us" attitude of the leftist media.

Well, I disagree with this. I think it's paranoid thought, but in any case this isn't any sort of rationalization for you not being Left.

Most of all, despite our faults I believe we are by far the greatest country on the face of the earth and find the lefts "blame America first" positions to be idiotic.

Well, I again disagree that this precludes your from being Left. This is a fabrication from the Right Wing media. Leftists don't "hate America" any more than the Right. So I disagree that this also isn't a meaningful rationalization for you not being Left.

IMO, here are your legitimate reasons for you not being Left...

You (may) believe in totally unregulated financial systems. You believe that government programs designed to aid its citizens are actually detrimental to its citizens. You believe only market forces should decide minimum salaries/wages. You believe the wealthy shouldn't provide a greater proportion of their income to paying taxes.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:16 pm

ATV wrote:
I support free markets (including Wal-Mart and international outsourcing) and strongly believe in our country's financial markets and corporate system.

Yea, well, who doesn't? I would disagree that being Left precludes you from agreeing with this. I suspect you mean to say you support totally unregulated finacial systems, like we might have had before FDR? If so, then yea - This wouldn't be Left.

I believe the structure of our social net fosters government dependency more then it helps.

Ok, while I disagree, this also wouldn't be Left.

I believe we should eliminate, not increase the minimum wage.
Ok, this is definetly not Left.

Ok, while I disagree, this also wouldn't be Left.

I oppose most tarriffs and anti-free trade measures

This could probably be lumped in with the first one.

I strongly support the Fair Tax

Fair Tax, LOL. I think you mean a Flat Tax. Yes, this is definetly not Left.

I believe in debate, not shutting it down like the left

Ok, wrong, I think you meant the Right. Have you ever watched Sean Hannity (surely)?

Even when I agree with the government in prinicple I consider it to inept to allow it to do anything other than provide the things that only it can do, like defense and roads.

This sounds like you'd support Anarchy then. This belief doesn't seem either Left OR Right to me.

While I want a smaller military, I strongly support the military.

Uh, by today's standards, I consider this to be Left.

I criticize the press not because I dont' want left views presented but because ONLY left views are presented. I don't like the "leave the thinking to us" attitude of the leftist media.

Well, I disagree with this. I think it's paranoid thought, but in any case this isn't any sort of rationalization for you not being Left.

Most of all, despite our faults I believe we are by far the greatest country on the face of the earth and find the lefts "blame America first" positions to be idiotic.

Well, I again disagree that this precludes your from being Left. This is a fabrication from the Right Wing media. Leftists don't "hate America" any more than the Right. So I disagree that this also isn't a meaningful rationalization for you not being Left.

IMO, here are your legitimate reasons for you not being Left...

You (may) believe in totally unregulated financial systems. You believe that government programs designed to aid its citizens are actually detrimental to its citizens. You believe only market forces should decide minimum salaries/wages. You believe the wealthy shouldn't provide a greater proportion of their income to paying taxes.

So basically you weigh the left by what you want them to be, not by the positions they actually have. Bashing Wal-Mart, hating the military, etc. My brother (Navy) described the left as the party that doesn't want his vote to count. Accurate and so telling.

You don't know what the Fair Tax is and didn't read the comments preceding this. Now there's a forum on it too, but there wasn't the forum when you wrote this.

And you dont' know the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. Libertarians believe in small government. Anarchists believe in NO government. Frankly that's a big enough difference for even a liberal to understand.

Thanks though, I learned a lot.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:47 pm

So basically you weigh the left by what you want them to be, not by the positions they actually have.

No....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

hating the military, etc.

There you go again. Same ole tactics.

My brother (Navy) described the left as the party that doesn't want his vote to count. Accurate and so telling.

Yea, wow, that does tell a lot.

Actually, Admiral Nimitz, Admiral MacAuthor, and I were sharing a conversation about that over breakfast this morning.

You don't know what the Fair Tax is and didn't read the comments preceding this

Fair Tax? Yea, I haven't bothered to read what you wrote about that. Gee, I guess that term just kind of reminds me of other catchy phrases like "Compassionate Conservative", "Death Tax", and "Private Accounts". Have you ever heard of "Pipe Dream"? Not going to happen. A conversation about a "Fair Tax" would be a bigger waste of time than this one is.

Anarchists believe in NO government.

I consider it too inept to allow it to do anything other than provide the things that only it can do, like defense and roads.

So other than maintaining a defense and building roads, you believe in anarchy.

Frankly that's a big enough difference for even a liberal to understand.

Awww, nanny-nanny boo-boo, bounces off me and sticks to you.

Thanks though, I learned a lot.

I doubt it, but you're welcome.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:15 pm

I'll address the more coherent ones.

ATV wrote:
So basically you weigh the left by what you want them to be, not by the positions they actually have.

No....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

Dude, do you know what wikipedia is? You could have written that. It's a good reference to check, but not cite. And besides, liberals bash Wal-Mart, exporting jobs, bash the military all day and I should ignore that because you say they don't think what they say? Sure.

ATV wrote:
You don't know what the Fair Tax is and didn't read the comments preceding this

Fair Tax? Yea, I haven't bothered to read what you wrote about that. Gee, I guess that term just kind of reminds me of other catchy phrases like "Compassionate Conservative", "Death Tax", and "Private Accounts". Have you ever heard of "Pipe Dream"? Not going to happen. A conversation about a "Fair Tax" would be a bigger waste of time than this one is.

Weak point since you didn't know what it was.

ATV wrote:
Anarchists believe in NO government.

I consider it too inept to allow it to do anything other than provide the things that only it can do, like defense and roads.

So other than maintaining a defense and building roads, you believe in anarchy.

Man, the phrase "things like" is so powerful and so changes my meaning when you drop it from what I said. Typical liberal, misquote by few words to achieve the maximum change in meaning and debate something I didn't say.

I'll type this slowly so you can follow. I support other things too, but they are things like roads and defense that can only be provided by government. This isn't an exhaustive list, which is why I said "things like."

ATV wrote:
Frankly that's a big enough difference for even a liberal to understand.

Awww, nanny-nanny boo-boo, bounces off me and sticks to you.

Now we're talking liberal intellect. BTW, I was being nice, as you demonstrated liberals don't understand what a libertarian is. Like they don't know what the Fair Tax is. Then they call the rest of us dumb.

BTW, I hope you're enjoying this, I am and I mean nothing personal. Just having some fun with you. Hope the same on your end.

SkinsFreak · Post by **SkinsFreak** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:57 pm

Sorry, I have nothing to add. I did when I thought the thread title was "Mid-Term Erections".

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:46 pm

Dude, do you know what wikipedia is? You could have written that. It's a good reference to check, but not cite.

Oh, I see. Ok, find me a more legitimate source which demonstrates how the Left hates our military.

liberals bash Wal-Mart

Poor Wal-Mart.

exporting jobs

Exporting jobs is awesome.

bash the military all day

There you go again.

I should ignore that because you say they don't think what they say?

I'm not sure what you should ignore, or who "they" is, but I'd suggest you complain more about actual facts.

I'll type this slowly so you can follow.

Could you type even a little more slowly next time? I simply thought you might want to further differentiate your philsophies from an archists. Fine, don't bother.

you demonstrated liberals don't understand what a libertarian is.

I don't know how you can arrive at that conclusion, but yea - I used to know what they stood for. Now it's the latest fashion, a fallback for fed-up conservatives to embarassed to associate themselves with the corrupt Republican party. Libertarianism is like so 1970s.

BTW, I hope you're enjoying this, I am and I mean nothing personal.

Not really. I'm wasting a bunch of time when I should be working, procrastinating. I'm also giving myself a headache. I take it fairly personally because I'm confident of my senses and I care a lot about the future.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:10 pm

ATV wrote:
BTW, I hope you're enjoying this, I am and I mean nothing personal.

Not really. I'm wasting a bunch of time when I should be working, procrastinating. I'm also giving myself a headache. I take it fairly personally because I'm confident of my senses and I care a lot about the future.

Ooooooh.

I was afraid you were taking it too seriously, that's why I reached out. Another angry liberal. You learn nothing, you're just frustrated you have to keep explaining the inherent truth of liberalism to all us dumb Republicans. Republican and dumb to an intelligent liberal (is there any other kind?) such as yourself both meaning "not a Democrat."

I like to debate because I don't think I already know everything like liberals, who simply parrot Democratic party positions and feel no need to learn or develop their views which would just confuse the programming.

ATV · Post by **ATV** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:01 pm

you're just frustrated you have to keep explaining the inherent truth of liberalism to all us dumb Republicans

Dumb Republicans? So much for Libertarianism, LOL.

I don't think I already know everything like liberals...

Yea sure. I never said I knew everything.

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:41 am

ATV wrote:
you're just frustrated you have to keep explaining the inherent truth of liberalism to all us dumb Republicans

Dumb Republicans? So much for Libertarianism, LOL.

Man, I sure have to explain a lot to you, maybe my points are just too complicated. I thought they were pretty straight foward.

This is a reference to you thinking everyone not a liberal is a Republican and all Republicans are dumb. When you add those, everyone not a liberal is dumb. You can refute my posts, but it's frustrating that you repeatedly don't get them.

Since it's a DNC talking point that we are all dumb because we dont' mindlessley repeat what they tell us you will of course ignore your regularly missing my points as emperical evidence counter to your liberals are smart, everyone else is a dumb Republican assumption.