Saunders and Gibbs

[HEROHAMO]

I just hope Saunders turns things around next year. Hopefully we dont get injuries like last year.

[Chris Luva Luva]

I can't allow myself to be impressed by that.

I just spit my orange juice out....

You can't allow yourself to be impressed....

[Fios]

They posted a whole lot of 'quiet' yards -- yards for yards' sake and not much else.

Like this?
And this?
And this?
And this?

So?

I can't allow myself to be impressed by that.

Nor can you be bothered to acknowledge the fact that those links disprove the (questionable) "yards for yards' sake" theory since KC consistently ranked among the top scoring offenses in the league. Is it possible to become overly enamored of statistics? Yes. Do they play a valuable, even crucial, role? Yes. You may not like that fact but it remains one all the same.

[roybus14]

I just hope Saunders turns things around next year. Hopefully we dont get injuries like last year.

Hero,

If he is allowed to. Let's just say one or two nuggets out of Howard Bryant's article are true, Joe Gibbs has to let this $2million dollar offensive genius do his thing. That means backing this guy up when the players whine about not running enough and giving him full control of the offense.

The one thing that stood out about the last part of the season and why we were successful running the ball is that the O-Line finally stopped acting like little girls and started blocking. Both running and passing. That doesn't just happen because Joe Gibbs gave some speech about "Redskins Football".

These guys didn't give Saunders and his offense a fair chance and as soon as he "tricked them" with more running plays from his playbook, they stopped acting like wimps and blocked. These guys can't be that blind to see that Al's offense does run the ball and that his downfield pass plays actually makes their jobs easier when it is time to run because the defense is off-balance and doesn't know to stack for run or drop back for pass. If they would look at every down as the down to blow somebody up, then it wouldn't matter what play Al called.

[Chris Luva Luva]

The possibility that Saunders is handcuffed is NOT a good thing. I dont think it will keep him here long term....

We need to either do it or not.

[skinsfan#33]

The one thing that stood out about the last part of the season and why we were successful running the ball is that the O-Line finally stopped acting like little girls and started blocking. Both running and passing. That doesn't just happen because Joe Gibbs gave some speech about "Redskins Football".

These guys didn't give Saunders and his offense a fair chance and as soon as he "tricked them" with more running plays from his playbook, they stopped acting like wimps and blocked. These guys can't be that blind to see that Al's offense does run the ball and that his downfield pass plays actually makes their jobs easier when it is time to run because the defense is off-balance and doesn't know to stack for run or drop back for pass. If they would look at every down as the down to blow somebody up, then it wouldn't matter what play Al called.

I disagree with you and the article. Once the Skins went back to "Redskins' Football" they dramatically changed their game plan. They ran more and they almost completely stopped running that god awlful stretch play to the left and went back to running between the tackels or just off-tackel, which Saunders almost never called before that. They went to smash mouth football and anyone who says they didn't change the types and number of run plays they were calling either knows nothing about football or wasn't watching.
Did the O-line start blocking better the plays that they think they can block better. Well of course they did, because that is what they do better. And to force them to run plays that they were not comfortable with and didn't think that they could execute was just plain DUMB!

[RedskinsFreak]

It's one giant clash of philosophies here. You have a HC and an O-line who believe in a straight-ahead, down-your-throat, downhill run gane.

You have a play-caller and a prime back who believe more in the stretch, work-the-edges approach.

Whatever they did toward the end of the season -- and I believe it's more than simply Campbell becoming the starter -- it made the offense, more successful, more unpredictable and more dangerous.

And if it turns out to be true that it was Gibbs who pulled the reins in on Saunders, that same arrangement MUST continue into next season.

And, if Portis complains that it's not best-suited to his skills .... I can live with him not being on the team.

Gibbs will have much more patience and tolerance for a "What do you want me to do, Coach?" guy than a "Here's what I do, Coach" guy.

[GoSkins]

Now hold your horses! Portis likes running downhill; not side line to side line. And Portis and Saunders are not close. Please listen to the following (as posted on another thread):


link

[RedskinsFreak]

Thanks for that link. That's the first time all season I've listened to Portis' appearance on the JT show. (I usually hit the button when I hear he's coming on -- I'm very wary about any paid appearance)

I was wrong on the run things. But that interview makes me even more bothered about how dysfunctional that operation is.

My jaw dropped a good half-dozen times about how closed-mouthed and spineless many of the players are.

[roybus14]

The one thing that stood out about the last part of the season and why we were successful running the ball is that the O-Line finally stopped acting like little girls and started blocking. Both running and passing. That doesn't just happen because Joe Gibbs gave some speech about "Redskins Football".

These guys didn't give Saunders and his offense a fair chance and as soon as he "tricked them" with more running plays from his playbook, they stopped acting like wimps and blocked. These guys can't be that blind to see that Al's offense does run the ball and that his downfield pass plays actually makes their jobs easier when it is time to run because the defense is off-balance and doesn't know to stack for run or drop back for pass. If they would look at every down as the down to blow somebody up, then it wouldn't matter what play Al called.

I disagree with you and the article. Once the Skins went back to "Redskins' Football" they dramatically changed their game plan. They ran more and they almost completely stopped running that god awlful stretch play to the left and went back to running between the tackels or just off-tackel, which Saunders almost never called before that. They went to smash mouth football and anyone who says they didn't change the types and number of run plays they were calling either knows nothing about football or wasn't watching.
Did the O-line start blocking better the plays that they think they can block better. Well of course they did, because that is what they do better. And to force them to run plays that they were not comfortable with and didn't think that they could execute was just plain DUMB!

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that but I disagree with it. What team is going to come out of the gate rolling with a first year OC??? This O-line never bought into Al's system from the time his signing hit the news because they felt that they had a formula that worked at the end of last season. I am curious to know how Larry Johnson and Priest Holmes became top RBs??? It wasn't through catching passes. They both ran for big yards each season Al was their coordinator. So these guys on this team had to adjust their blocking and move a little more, that's what they get paid for.

If you really think what you say is true, then the "DUMB" one and the one who knows nothing about football is Joe Gibbs for bringing Al Saunders here in the first place knowing the style of offense this guy runs. I bet the boys on KC's O-Line aren't whining like this group. Roaf (before he retired) and Shields are definite HOF candidates just like the original Hogs...

To be straight up honest with you, their whole problem wasn't about not doing what they were good at, IMO, they gave up on Al and his system from the start because it was a change. Then, throw in the fact that they and everybody else expected Al's offense to automatically produce magic instead of giving it time and learning. Oh and let's not forget that they were trying to run this offense with a broke down QB too. Al Saunders is a proven OC. Why? Look at what he did when he adjusted the game plan for the broke-down QB in the Texans game? He set an NFL record for completions because Al limited his game-plan to do what Brunell could do best and that was throw short dinks and dunks. These guys and everybody seems to think that Al doesn't run the ball. Look at KC the last 5-6 years and there is your proof. The leadership on this team is so messed up that they have allowed the players to revolt against a $2million dollar OC. Gibbs bought into that because he didn't give Al full control and back him up by talking about getting back to "Redskins Football" when this damn O-Line couldn't even carry the Hogs' jocks.

They don't even come close because even though Al supposedly asked them to do something that they were not used to, they still should have given max effort and be physical with the guy across from them. Football is still football and is a game where you have to beat the get across from you, period. They started doing that and attributed it to getting back to "Redskins Football" when all they did was just "Man-Up". They could have "Man'd-Up" in Al's scheme but they didn't want to......

[SkinsJock]

Some interesting observations from different perspectives - and some with a lot of merit on a lot of points - I think that this next season we will see the offense working well with everyone having a lot of different ideas on why it is going so well I'm the resident homer, so I should know

I also think that Williams will make the adjustments needed to get this defence back into the top half of the league if not back in the top 10 because he is a very good defensive co-ordinator. He did not suddenly forget what he knows.

We are not a good football team this year, but that is not because we do not have the talent on the field or on the sidelines. The team that plays together as a team better than the other team on Sunday usually wins the game. These are good coaches although I think Saunders and Williams will adapt their "systems" a little this coming off season - Williams will take away the problem of giving up big plays up the middle and Saunders will be a little more run oriented.

We need players who make each other better - we need players who by playing together make their team better. I predict these coaches have a good idea of what to do to make us competitive, and, let's face it, the coaches are going to be here so hopefully they make good decisions this off season about who is going to be here AND what those players are going to be doing.

[roybus14]

We have the players but IMO, iwas more on the coaches or lack there of this past season. Confusion on who is running the offense, coaches alienating (or supposedly) players on the defense, the list goes on. No matter how long a guy has been in the league, he still needs to be coached.

This team, starting at the top, needs to come clean in the off-season, realize that what they did this past season was terribly wrong, and do everything in their power not to repeat those mistakes. Give Al full control of the offense; trim the coaching staff and make them actually coach and talk to not only the players but each other; and instill the discipline from the glory days.

[PulpExposure]

Actually, while Saunders had great success running the ball in KC, I think his stretch running system fit the KC offensive line (a very mobile line) a lot better than ours. Our o-line is a bunch of straight-line maulers, and that's why we're more successful with the off-tackle and dive plays.

Once Saunders began calling plays more to the o-line's strength, than calling plays he was used to running, things changed. And I don't know why Gibbs pointing this out was a bad thing. You play to your player's strengths.

You don't send Santana Moss across the middle on short passing routes all day, so why would you have fat boy Derrick Dockery pulling?

[TincoSkin]

Actually, while Saunders had great success running the ball in KC, I think his stretch running system fit the KC offensive line (a very mobile line) a lot better than ours. Our o-line is a bunch of straight-line maulers, and that's why we're more successful with the off-tackle and dive plays.

Once Saunders began calling plays more to the o-line's strength, than calling plays he was used to running, things changed. And I don't know why Gibbs pointing this out was a bad thing. You play to your player's strengths.

You don't send Santana Moss across the middle on short passing routes all day, so why would you have fat boy Derrick Dockery pulling?

i hear that... i think its possible for AL to incorporate what our team does well into his style of offense. he has a set way he can produce yards and points, and it is impressive. but i think the sign of a true professional is one who can succeed under different circumstances.

AL knows hes not going to change the whole line in one off season. it just wont happen, not without a two year growth period. (which we cant afford). its time he uses the power run opposite his passing attack. im sure an offensive genius like AL can make it work!

in the end all this talk is frustration. we are at a mid point in the growth of a new offensive power house. new OC means a slow growth curve. its ok, everyone needs to calm down and watch our immediate growth next season.

hail.

[roybus14]

Actually, while Saunders had great success running the ball in KC, I think his stretch running system fit the KC offensive line (a very mobile line) a lot better than ours. Our o-line is a bunch of straight-line maulers, and that's why we're more successful with the off-tackle and dive plays.

Once Saunders began calling plays more to the o-line's strength, than calling plays he was used to running, things changed. And I don't know why Gibbs pointing this out was a bad thing. You play to your player's strengths.

You don't send Santana Moss across the middle on short passing routes all day, so why would you have fat boy Derrick Dockery pulling?

i hear that... i think its possible for AL to incorporate what our team does well into his style of offense. he has a set way he can produce yards and points, and it is impressive. but i think the sign of a true professional is one who can succeed under different circumstances.

AL knows hes not going to change the whole line in one off season. it just wont happen, not without a two year growth period. (which we cant afford). its time he uses the power run opposite his passing attack. im sure an offensive genius like AL can make it work!

in the end all this talk is frustration. we are at a mid point in the growth of a new offensive power house. new OC means a slow growth curve. its ok, everyone needs to calm down and watch our immediate growth next season.

hail.

I hear you both but then it all comes back to Gibbs and his poor decision making. He knew what he had in his offensive line but then went and got a play caller who's playbook is centered around a more mobile line. If he is not going to give AL full control and back him up, then he should have never bought him here. This goes to show that Joe Gibbs is out of touch with today's NFL and all of the changes that have happened since he left, ump-teen years ago. He's done a very poor job of adjusting and the one thing that Ms. Gibbs feared is that he would tarnish his name and legacy. Well another season like this one will be the nail in the coffin.

No true Redskins Fan will diminish what he bought to this franchise and us fans in the past but it is just that, the past. He has done a very poor job the second time around and it is just to glaring to not see that. I certainly hope that Joe Jackson Gibbs takes time off to really reflect on what he has done this past season and find some way to find the HOF Coach that bought us Championships....

[skinsfan#33]

Actually, while Saunders had great success running the ball in KC, I think his stretch running system fit the KC offensive line (a very mobile line) a lot better than ours. Our o-line is a bunch of straight-line maulers, and that's why we're more successful with the off-tackle and dive plays.

Once Saunders began calling plays more to the o-line's strength, than calling plays he was used to running, things changed. And I don't know why Gibbs pointing this out was a bad thing. You play to your player's strengths.

You don't send Santana Moss across the middle on short passing routes all day, so why would you have fat boy Derrick Dockery pulling?

i hear that... i think its possible for AL to incorporate what our team does well into his style of offense. he has a set way he can produce yards and points, and it is impressive. but i think the sign of a true professional is one who can succeed under different circumstances.

AL knows hes not going to change the whole line in one off season. it just wont happen, not without a two year growth period. (which we cant afford). its time he uses the power run opposite his passing attack. im sure an offensive genius like AL can make it work!

in the end all this talk is frustration. we are at a mid point in the growth of a new offensive power house. new OC means a slow growth curve. its ok, everyone needs to calm down and watch our immediate growth next season.

hail.

I hear you both but then it all comes back to Gibbs and his poor decision making. He knew what he had in his offensive line but then went and got a play caller who's playbook is centered around a more mobile line. If he is not going to give AL full control and back him up, then he should have never bought him here. This goes to show that Joe Gibbs is out of touch with today's NFL and all of the changes that have happened since he left, ump-teen years ago. He's done a very poor job of adjusting and the one thing that Ms. Gibbs feared is that he would tarnish his name and legacy. Well another season like this one will be the nail in the coffin.

No true Redskins Fan will diminish what he bought to this franchise and us fans in the past but it is just that, the past. He has done a very poor job the second time around and it is just to glaring to not see that. I certainly hope that Joe Jackson Gibbs takes time off to really reflect on what he has done this past season and find some way to find the HOF Coach that bought us Championships....

I agree that Gibbs made a bad call by hiring Al. But if you listen to what Joe and Al said when Al first got here. Al said that he wasn't going to completely change the offense. He was going to look at what this team did well last year and add some plays to it. That is what he said in an interview! Next thing you know you have a 700 page play book and he is calling plays that don't fit the tallent that he has. How mant times this year did we run that play that Sellers scored like 6 TDs on last year. You know the one that you fake a hand off to the RB with Sellers as the lead blocker and then dump it to big caveman Sellers. If Sellers is covered you go to ey or run. I saw it done once and #8 tried to force it to a tripple teamed ey instead of a wide open Sellers. That play (when propperly executed) always worked and Saunders USED IT ONCE. You can think what ever you want, but Gibbs was putting in the running gameplan at the end of the season, just list to Portis in the Sports talk 980 interview above.

[roybus14]

Actually, while Saunders had great success running the ball in KC, I think his stretch running system fit the KC offensive line (a very mobile line) a lot better than ours. Our o-line is a bunch of straight-line maulers, and that's why we're more successful with the off-tackle and dive plays.

Once Saunders began calling plays more to the o-line's strength, than calling plays he was used to running, things changed. And I don't know why Gibbs pointing this out was a bad thing. You play to your player's strengths.

You don't send Santana Moss across the middle on short passing routes all day, so why would you have fat boy Derrick Dockery pulling?

i hear that... i think its possible for AL to incorporate what our team does well into his style of offense. he has a set way he can produce yards and points, and it is impressive. but i think the sign of a true professional is one who can succeed under different circumstances.

AL knows hes not going to change the whole line in one off season. it just wont happen, not without a two year growth period. (which we cant afford). its time he uses the power run opposite his passing attack. im sure an offensive genius like AL can make it work!

in the end all this talk is frustration. we are at a mid point in the growth of a new offensive power house. new OC means a slow growth curve. its ok, everyone needs to calm down and watch our immediate growth next season.

hail.

I hear you both but then it all comes back to Gibbs and his poor decision making. He knew what he had in his offensive line but then went and got a play caller who's playbook is centered around a more mobile line. If he is not going to give AL full control and back him up, then he should have never bought him here. This goes to show that Joe Gibbs is out of touch with today's NFL and all of the changes that have happened since he left, ump-teen years ago. He's done a very poor job of adjusting and the one thing that Ms. Gibbs feared is that he would tarnish his name and legacy. Well another season like this one will be the nail in the coffin.

No true Redskins Fan will diminish what he bought to this franchise and us fans in the past but it is just that, the past. He has done a very poor job the second time around and it is just to glaring to not see that. I certainly hope that Joe Jackson Gibbs takes time off to really reflect on what he has done this past season and find some way to find the HOF Coach that bought us Championships....

I agree that Gibbs made a bad call by hiring Al. But if you listen to what Joe and Al said when Al first got here. Al said that he wasn't going to completely change the offense. He was going to look at what this team did well last year and add some plays to it. That is what he said in an interview! Next thing you know you have a 700 page play book and he is calling plays that don't fit the tallent that he has. How mant times this year did we run that play that Sellers scored like 6 TDs on last year. You know the one that you fake a hand off to the RB with Sellers as the lead blocker and then dump it to big caveman Sellers. If Sellers is covered you go to ey or run. I saw it done once and #8 tried to force it to a tripple teamed ey instead of a wide open Sellers. That play (when propperly executed) always worked and Saunders USED IT ONCE. You can think what ever you want, but Gibbs was putting in the running gameplan at the end of the season, just list to Portis in the Sports talk 980 interview above.

Well then Al didn't keep up his end of the deal either but not going to a guaranteed score with Sellers in the red zone. There have been bad decisions made all around and unless the coaches and management is willing to address them in the off-season, then we will have what we had this season, all of this talent that can't be managed and coached.....

[PulpExposure]

One thing I wondered about were the receiver screens that Moss ran really well last year. Yeah, we probably (ok definately) overused the bubble screen last year...but damn, it worked really well.

I can't even recall seeing it once this year.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

One thing I wondered about were the receiver screens that Moss ran really well last year. Yeah, we probably (ok definately) overused the bubble screen last year...but damn, it worked really well.

I can't even recall seeing it once this year.

Since you mentioned them, what was the difference from those and the ones we seemed to run on almost every other play at the beginning of the year with Mark under center?

[PulpExposure]

One thing I wondered about were the receiver screens that Moss ran really well last year. Yeah, we probably (ok definately) overused the bubble screen last year...but damn, it worked really well.

I can't even recall seeing it once this year.

Since you mentioned them, what was the difference from those and the ones we seemed to run on almost every other play at the beginning of the year with Mark under center?

The screens actually had blockers and were designed to be short passes.

Those other passes might have been designed to be fly patterns, but since the wideouts know Mark can't throw it over 4 yards, they ran short fly routes?

[Cappster]

One thing I wondered about were the receiver screens that Moss ran really well last year. Yeah, we probably (ok definately) overused the bubble screen last year...but damn, it worked really well.

I can't even recall seeing it once this year.

Since you mentioned them, what was the difference from those and the ones we seemed to run on almost every other play at the beginning of the year with Mark under center?

The screens actually had blockers and were designed to be short passes.

Those other passes might have been designed to be fly patterns, but since the wideouts know Mark can't throw it over 4 yards, they ran short fly routes?

I noticied , in the game agianst the midgets, that they ran a screen to moss but no one was out there to block for him. If Moss is given space and blockers he can break off chunks of yards. If Saunders is going to call a screen, atleast give the man some blockers.

[jeremyroyce]

From what I have been reading from this whole thing about Saunders I don't think he will be back next season, nor do I think that Greg Williams will be back either.

[Fios]

From what I have been reading from this whole thing about Saunders I don't think he will be back next season, nor do I think that Greg Williams will be back either.

Based on what exactly? Do you know something Joe Gibbs doesn't know?

[SkinsJock]

From what I have been reading from this whole thing.........

There is an old saying "you can't believe everything you hear" and there should be another - "you can't believe anything you read about the Redskins"

[jeremyroyce]

From what I have been reading from this whole thing about Saunders I don't think he will be back next season, nor do I think that Greg Williams will be back either.

Based on what exactly? Do you know something Joe Gibbs doesn't know?

Well, if you take a look at the Washington Post there are 2 articles on there. I did not however say that it was going to happen, just from reading those articles in my opinion Williams and Saunders won't be back. I could be wrong.