To all Hardcore Redskins fans!

[tcwest10]

Funny...sometimes it takes a thread like this to remind you that you are a diehard, doesn't it?

[ATV]

yoouu ddont no ffootball

Yes I do. Jebus was a linebacker.

[tcwest10]

...but only in the 4-3. For nickel and dime coverage, he dropped back rather than let a DB come in for him.
A real iron man.

[sch1977]

yoouu ddont no ffootball

Yes I do. Jebus was a linebacker.

Did he play 8 man football?

[Mursilis]

It's been a long year. But I believe this with all my heart - it won't happen again. Gibbs will right this ship and when it's on course, it will stay the course for the rest of his term and the next . . . history says Gibbs wins more than he loses and the odds are on his side, not haters.

Gnome out.

I'm not saying I agree with anyone calling for Gibbs to be fired, but didn't we hear this same thing after 2004? And now, it's happening again. Of course, Gibbs turned it around in 2005 and got this team into the playoffs, but still, even the most hardcore Gibbs supporters have to acknowledge that in the 3 years he's been back, he's had his worst two seasons in his entire career. Not a great sign by any means.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I love Joe Gibbs, but isnt this a what have you done for me lately league? I don't think joe's mentally into this as the 3rd season comes to a close. Ive see the same problems with this team from the preseason games until now, when was the last time a Joe Gibbs team rushes for 210 yards and losses, thats not suppossed to happen. Last Week vs Atlanta, with 2 minutes to go on 4th down inside the 5 down by ten, why did we go for it, You kick that field goal, you need 2 scores, Joe always sends out the FG team, why not then, as much as we love him, even he is making mistakes. Myself, I feel let down this season because there is some great talent on this club and after last season expectations were high and like in recent years past when the expectations rise it seems like the players run from success.

Yes, and I see why you want to go back to coaches not named Joe Gibbs, who have, over 25 years or so of coaching Redskins in the Superbowl era won,

OK, let me do some math here.

Add add add, think think think.

OK, here's the total. Z-E-R-O!!!!

I see why you long for that over the loser who's won three. Good insight. Thanks.

[SkinsJock]

I still think that Gibbs is the best available right now to get this team starightened out. We are all very disapointed because the indications were that we were going to have a much better season. Reality is that did not happen but I still think we have 2 very good coaches in Williams and Saunders and with Gibbs overseeing and generally in charge of this team I am still looking for him to get this team back to where we belong and playing good sound football again. I just think that this guy will make the adjustments that we need and we all need to give him the time he wants. He might decide that it is in our best interest if he steps aside but I really doubt that is going to happen.

This guy is a winner and we are lucky to have him. If you think you cannot handle how he's doing it then you might want to find another team - this is one of the best and all he needs is a little more time.

I saw a very good football game last night (NO @ Dallas) and I remember that New Orleans was in a lot worse shape last year than we are right now.
As far as we are concerned I saw some really good things in that loss yeterday and we will be a very good football team very soon.

HAIL

[redskingush]

I love Joe Gibbs, but isnt this a what have you done for me lately league? I don't think joe's mentally into this as the 3rd season comes to a close. Ive see the same problems with this team from the preseason games until now, when was the last time a Joe Gibbs team rushes for 210 yards and losses, thats not suppossed to happen. Last Week vs Atlanta, with 2 minutes to go on 4th down inside the 5 down by ten, why did we go for it, You kick that field goal, you need 2 scores, Joe always sends out the FG team, why not then, as much as we love him, even he is making mistakes. Myself, I feel let down this season because there is some great talent on this club and after last season expectations were high and like in recent years past when the expectations rise it seems like the players run from success.

Yes, and I see why you want to go back to coaches not named Joe Gibbs, who have, over 25 years or so of coaching Redskins in the Superbowl era won,

OK, let me do some math here.

Add add add, think think think.

OK, here's the total. Z-E-R-O!!!!

I see why you long for that over the loser who's won three. Good insight. Thanks.

Hey Kazoo, Not what im saying, yes hes a great coach, my ? is why is this great hall of fame coach letting the same problems continue week after week, try and tell me he shouldnt have kicked a FG in that situation vs Atlanta, it doensnt take the Hall of Fame and 3 Superbowls to send out the FG team, Im just thinking if your head coach has lost his focus what chance does the team have, I dont know what goes on in that locker room, but every Sunday when I watch these games, it's not looking like alot of things have been changed to make the club better in the week of film, practice and gameplanning they do. I am a huge fans who understands this game, I am very critical. Nobody was happier than me when he came back 3 years ago, but what has he really done, 20-25 and 1-1 in the playoffs, yes I guess we got to the playoffs, but this season all the pieces were to be in place and 4-9 are you kidding. 3 superbowls and 25 years has gotten us no were. This is my team and will always be my team, I too thought Joe was going to bring the glory back and I guess I hope its next year.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Why is this great hall of fame coach letting the same problems continue week after week

Some reasons: Successful franchises are built in more then 3 years, he's had a lot of injuries (even the subs in the secondary are getting injured) and he doesn't have a reliable QB. You can say he chose to start with a has been and an isn't there yet, but I'll say recognizing and solving QB issues are not the same thing in a league with 32 teams and a country which has maybe half that worthy of the role.

And how is getting a bad team and taking to the playoffs and winning a game ending a long playoff drought a reason to criticize him anyway? It's only been 3 years and he got a crappy team. This is the NFL. You will never succeed unless you build a team. It's not like Legos, the team needs to have the skills, the heart, and learn to play together.

Try and tell me he shouldnt have kicked a FG in that situation vs Atlanta, it doensnt take the Hall of Fame and 3 Superbowls to send out the FG team

He should have kicked a FG. Keep in mind the choice was:
- Kick a field goal and hope the D can stop them, there was plenty of time, and get the ball back when you then just need a FG to win.
- Go for a despiration TD from the 3 with a "rookie" QB who's already thrown 2 INTs on short yardage plays becuase you don't trust the D. IF you get it, you kick off. And they get to drive for a field goal to win.

Now here's the rub, do you get that you are relying on the SAME defense to make a stop on either scenario? But the message is different. In your scenario we are TELLING the D we don't trust them. But in Gibbs/mine, we give up nothing because either way the D needs to make a stop.

Make sure you get this before you write a post saying "but we didn't stop them which proved me right!" I already addressed that. My apologies in advance if you got it.

Im just thinking if your head coach has lost his focus what chance does the team have

And you know the Gibbs has lost his focus because his team had a bad year? After a great year last year? And his first year back with a team he didn't build or know the year before that? I don't get it.

I dont know what goes on in that locker room, but every Sunday when I watch these games, it's not looking like alot of things have been changed to make the club better in the week of film, practice and gameplanning they do.

A. There are changes you can do week to week.
B. There are changes you have to make in the offseason.
C. There are changes that come with time as teams and coaches learn to play together.

You have A. I'm suggesting B and C need to be considered as well. Some examples, Campbell getting experience is a C. Fixing the secondary is B and C.

I am a huge fans who understands this game

I agree you are a huge fan. Maybe you understand the rules of the game. But finger pointing and blame are no way to run ANY successful organization. Your posts don't indicate an understanding of that.

I am very critical.

Which can be good, but it needs to be constructive.

Nobody was happier than me when he came back 3 years ago, but what has he really done, 20-25 and 1-1 in the playoffs, yes I guess we got to the playoffs, but this season all the pieces were to be in place and 4-9 are you kidding. 3 superbowls and 25 years has gotten us no were. This is my team and will always be my team, I too thought Joe was going to bring the glory back and I guess I hope its next year.

This is opinion, which is fine. While I share your disappointment over this year, I could not agree with you less that we have gone nowhere in 3 years. Three years ago we had Spurrier and a college coaching staff totally over their heads. Gibbs came in as I said with a team he didn't know or build. It's only been THREE YEARS!!!! Come on. It only makes sense to think that if you're young enough to think that's along time or old enough you don't plan to live that long.

Far more than playoff games this year, I want the ship righted. That is what Gibbs says his objective is. I'm supporting him.

And I'm not questioning your loyalty to Gibbs or the Skins, I just disagree with the specific things you are saying. I'm sure we both equally love the Skins and want them to do well next year and into the future.

[redskingush]

Well I see everybody is on the defensive as far as Joe Gibbs is concerned, so I will not waste anymore time explaining my thoughts. All I can add is I hope the rest of you guys are right.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Well I see everybody is on the defensive as far as Joe Gibbs is concerned, so I will not waste anymore time explaining my thoughts. All I can add is I hope the rest of you guys are right.

We're not "on the defensive" we're defending Gibbs, there's a difference. His attackers are the ones offering no solutions except firing people, which is the one strategy we have repeatedly demonstrated does NOT work. Check the thread on the Redskins record since Gibbs left for that data.

[gibbsfan]

I'm as hardcore a fan as you can get outside of the DC area. If I lived in the area, I'd be the first one at the tailgate.

The game just finished with Philly. We're 4-9.

And here this loud and clear - no way - zero percent chance - not if we don't win another game this year - will I ever, ever give up on Gibbs. Never.

He's to the Skins as Bear Bryant is to Bama, Paterno is to Penn State, Lombardi to the Packers.

And he's got three superbowl rings, two Nascar championships, and a bust in Canton that says the guy knows how to win. So he got it wrong this year. I'm not throwing away my closet full of Redskins T-Shirts or taking down the pennants in my football room. I bleed burgundy and gold and I'll come back at any hater with this rant from here until I'm dead.

It's been a long year. But I believe this with all my heart - it won't happen again. Gibbs will right this ship and when it's on course, it will stay the course for the rest of his term and the next . . . history says Gibbs wins more than he loses and the odds are on his side, not haters.

Gnome out.

you and me both..i,m another that will argue any hater anyday about joe gibbs i guess he has to much time on his hands to be making a comment like that anyways..

3 superbowls and hall of fame ring,3 nascar championships speaks for itself.
the only coach in history to win championships in 2 different sport categories.stands alone..

[gibbsfan]

Funny...sometimes it takes a thread like this to remind you that you are a diehard, doesn't it?

you know what i think your right... ..

some just don,t really see the whole picture...

[KazooSkinsFan]

you and me both..i,m another that will argue any hater anyday about joe gibbs i guess he has to much time on his hands to be making a comment like that anyways..

3 superbowls and hall of fame ring,3 nascar championships speaks for itself.
the only coach in history to win championships in 2 different sport categories.stands alone..

And his critics fail to grasp that he ended our playoff drought and actually won a long, long awaited playoff game, one year after inheriting a BAD Spurrier team. Sure, we're expecting more improvement, but you don't run bad teams into perennial contenders overnight. His critics unrealistically want miracles. In reality, it takes time, hard work and dedication, not impatience, blame and fingerpointing.

[Mursilis]

And his critics fail to grasp that he ended our playoff drought and actually won a long, long awaited playoff game, one year after inheriting a BAD Spurrier team. Sure, we're expecting more improvement, but you don't run bad teams into perennial contenders overnight. His critics unrealistically want miracles. In reality, it takes time, hard work and dedication, not impatience, blame and fingerpointing.

Prior to Marvin Lewis's arrival at the end of the 2002 season, the Bengals hadn't had a winning season since 1990(!!) and were rivaling the Cardinals for worst franchise in football. They hadn't had double-digit wins since 1986 and were 2-14 in 2002 before Lewis was hired! (Even the Spurrier Skins weren't that bad when Gibbs came back into town.) Despite the long history of ineptitude by that team and that organization, Lewis has never finished worse than 8-8, including his first year, when he immediately added 6 victories. By his second year, they were in double-digit wins and the playoffs. His regular season win percentage so far is .574, and the Bengals are still in playoff contention for this season.

Now, what were you saying?

[KazooSkinsFan]

And his critics fail to grasp that he ended our playoff drought and actually won a long, long awaited playoff game, one year after inheriting a BAD Spurrier team. Sure, we're expecting more improvement, but you don't run bad teams into perennial contenders overnight. His critics unrealistically want miracles. In reality, it takes time, hard work and dedication, not impatience, blame and fingerpointing.

Prior to Marvin Lewis's arrival at the end of the 2002 season, the Bengals hadn't had a winning season since 1990(!!) and were rivaling the Cardinals for worst franchise in football. They hadn't had double-digit wins since 1986 and were 2-14 in 2002 before Lewis was hired! (Even the Spurrier Skins weren't that bad when Gibbs came back into town.) Despite the long history of ineptitude by that team and that organization, Lewis has never finished worse than 8-8, including his first year, when he immediately added 6 victories. By his second year, they were in double-digit wins and the playoffs. His regular season win percentage so far is .574, and the Bengals are still in playoff contention for this season.

Now, what were you saying?

Wow, if one coach did it once with a different team and different players then any competent coach obviously should be able to do it at any time with any team.

I'm stunned, I can't refute that logic. Thanks for clearing this up.

[Mursilis]

And his critics fail to grasp that he ended our playoff drought and actually won a long, long awaited playoff game, one year after inheriting a BAD Spurrier team. Sure, we're expecting more improvement, but you don't run bad teams into perennial contenders overnight. His critics unrealistically want miracles. In reality, it takes time, hard work and dedication, not impatience, blame and fingerpointing.

Prior to Marvin Lewis's arrival at the end of the 2002 season, the Bengals hadn't had a winning season since 1990(!!) and were rivaling the Cardinals for worst franchise in football. They hadn't had double-digit wins since 1986 and were 2-14 in 2002 before Lewis was hired! (Even the Spurrier Skins weren't that bad when Gibbs came back into town.) Despite the long history of ineptitude by that team and that organization, Lewis has never finished worse than 8-8, including his first year, when he immediately added 6 victories. By his second year, they were in double-digit wins and the playoffs. His regular season win percentage so far is .574, and the Bengals are still in playoff contention for this season.

Now, what were you saying?

Wow, if one coach did it once with a different team and different players then any competent coach obviously should be able to do it at any time with any team.

Now you're just reaching.

Just to be clear, I'm not on the 'fire Gibbs' bandwagon, but I also don't buy what his defenders keep saying about he's still cleaning up other people's messes as well. Spurrier was 2 1/2 years ago. That excuse has expired.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Now you're just reaching.

I'm reaching? I said about building a successful organization "In reality, it takes time, hard work and dedication, not impatience, blame and fingerpointing."

You came back with a single data point of Marvin Lewis and Cincinnati that he's never been under 8-8 over his first 4 years. Tell me, how exactly was I SUPPOSED to interpret that statement?

OK, I'll give a serious answer. I agree that is an accomplishment for Marvin. He did right by us and I'm glad. But, I fail to see the applicability to Gibbs. Of the many, many differences,

- He must have inherited a team with some talent, he could not have turned around a talentless team that fast.
- His team must have been consistent with his philosophy, smash mouth football Gibbs clearly did not from pitch and catch Spurrier. The importance of this is having the right players available.
- His team must have had some good NFL coaching before he got it. We had the college comedy hour. BTW, Gibbs turned around the Skins the first time faster because he got the team from solid coach Jack Pardee.
- So Marvin got a decent situation with a combination of talent, coaching fundamentals, good draft picks and cap space. He had the right assistants available. Good for him, but most of the time good coaches get bad teams with disjointed staffs and have to build the team and the system.

When you offer a single data point as a "rebuttal" to an argument with NO explanation or clarification of your point then don't like the response, telling me I"m "reaching" is weak. If you don't like my interpretation, which was pretty direct from what you said, why don't you make your point clearer instead of expecting me to figure out what you meant and objecting still without explaining what your single data point meant.

Just to be clear, I'm not on the 'fire Gibbs' bandwagon, but I also don't buy what his defenders keep saying about he's still cleaning up other people's messes as well. Spurrier was 2 1/2 years ago. That excuse has expired.

I said he got a bad team from Spurrier. He took it to the playoffs the second year and isn't getting credit for that from the Gibbs bashers. I said the third year is bad but it takes time to build a winning organization. I don't follow your logic that means I'm still using Spurrier as an excuse.

[Irn-Bru]

I said he got a bad team from Spurrier. He took it to the playoffs the second year and isn't getting credit for that from the Gibbs bashers.

Indeed. In addition, it also gets used in the following, circular-reasoning argument to downplay Gibbs' accomplishments since his return:

- Gibbs is back, but how has he done in his three seasons here?

- On the one hand, his winning % is sub .500 and appears to be getting even worse.

- On the other hand, he did have that playoff run last year.

- Then again, he does have this poor record, including a bad season following the playoffs. This makes the playoffs look like the exception, not the rule.

- (Therefore:) It really seems like Gibbs has accomplished little in his return. Not only does he have a poor record, but his one moment of success with the playoffs was a fluke!

[Redskin in Canada]

u are on crack dude.

U 2

[redskingush]

One more question, If Joe can't get this done in the next 2 seasons, then what, start over once again, I know there's alot of speculation GW takes over, personally I don't think hell see next season. I thought we were a contender this season, obviosly not. Can we be a contender within the next 2 seasons?

[1niksder]

One more question, If Joe can't get this done in the next 2 seasons, then what, start over once again, I know there's alot of speculation GW takes over, personally I don't think hell see next season. I thought we were a contender this season, obviosly not. Can we be a contender within the next 2 seasons?

I read Gibbs has already said Saunders and Williams will both be back. He also talked about changes he foresees during the off-season during his gig with the media today (the last 14 mins. are interesting). It sounds like what everyone wants to here, but he sound has genuine as usual. He talked about keeping our own player, and learning from the mistakes made when players left, he talked about previous draft picks and free agents the have come in and produced over the past three year.

And the best part for most of you is he never mentioned the B word

[Mursilis]

OK, I'll give a serious answer. I agree that is an accomplishment for Marvin. He did right by us and I'm glad. But, I fail to see the applicability to Gibbs. Of the many, many differences,

- He must have inherited a team with some talent, he could not have turned around a talentless team that fast.
- His team must have been consistent with his philosophy, smash mouth football Gibbs clearly did not from pitch and catch Spurrier. The importance of this is having the right players available.
- His team must have had some good NFL coaching before he got it. We had the college comedy hour. BTW, Gibbs turned around the Skins the first time faster because he got the team from solid coach Jack Pardee.
- So Marvin got a decent situation with a combination of talent, coaching fundamentals, good draft picks and cap space. He had the right assistants available. Good for him, but most of the time good coaches get bad teams with disjointed staffs and have to build the team and the system.

That's all just pure speculation. A 'decent situation'?!? Please. That team hadn't been good for 10+ years and was widely considered a coaching graveyard. Lewis even said most of his NFL peers advised him AGAINST taking the job. Plus, one of few good players on the team (Corey Dillon) was so fed up, he demanded a trade, and the team's best LB, Takeo Spikes, refused to re-sign and left for Buffalo. That team was a complete and utter mess when Lewis rolled into town, and he turned it around in one year.

When you offer a single data point as a "rebuttal" to an argument with NO explanation or clarification of your point then don't like the response, telling me I"m "reaching" is weak. If you don't like my interpretation, which was pretty direct from what you said, why don't you make your point clearer instead of expecting me to figure out what you meant and objecting still without explaining what your single data point meant.

You want more 'data points'? Look at the team we're playing this week, the Saints. 3-13 last year, and they bring in a first year coach who's never been a head coach before. Now they're leading the division and will probably hit 10+ wins. Heck, most of the first-year coaches this season are doing as good as or better than our 4-9, and none of them inherited a playoff team either.

[Mursilis]

One more question, If Joe can't get this done in the next 2 seasons, then what, start over once again, I know there's alot of speculation GW takes over, personally I don't think hell see next season. I thought we were a contender this season, obviosly not. Can we be a contender within the next 2 seasons?

I read Gibbs has already said Saunders and Williams will both be back. He also talked about changes he foresees during the off-season during his gig with the media today (the last 14 mins. are interesting). It sounds like what everyone wants to here, but he sound has genuine as usual. He talked about keeping our own player, and learning from the mistakes made when players left, he talked about previous draft picks and free agents the have come in and produced over the past three year.

And the best part for most of you is he never mentioned the B word

I really think they're going to be better next year, I really do. The offense really needs nothing on the personnel front; a full offseason to come together with Campbell at the helm, plus a healthy Portis, is going to turn this bunch into the sort of well-oiled scoring machine we've seen out of KC the last few years. As for the defense, they've been humbled and hopefully will come into next year eager to prove they're not as bad as they've looked this year. Plus, young guys like MacIntosh and Rogers will only learn and improve with time. Plus, I think the coaching staff all learned a painful lesson about coasting through training camp and the preseason, and will look to recover their pride.

[KazooSkinsFan]

You want more 'data points'?

Actually I asked exactly what your point is. What are you advocating?

I feel like I'm boxing blindfolded because you are just taking pot shots w/o having actually said what your position is or even clearly what you object to. So, make a point.