Very Interesting Piece on Coaching Staff

[KazooSkinsFan]

Your point is well taken but about a year too late.

This is probably your only poor point, you went for flip.

You missed my point, We didn't stay consistant.... He gave up play calling and Williams added a coach we did pretty go without the year before.

I missed a point not made

[#1) I wanted to stay with Spurrier. I was not convinced he couldn't make it. I did want Snyder to require he hire an NFL experienced staff though to stay. Then I was thrilled with Gibbs coming back and have advocated we stick with him to rebuild for the long run. I am still arguing the same thing. I am not a year too late because I said this a year ago. And two years ago...

#2) We are still facing the same issue and we can't go back a year and we still need to tweek and jell, not keep churning. We should have done it last year, we didn't, we should still do it now. We still have a lot of talent.

Didn't like Spurrier, I agree on point #2

Just to be clear, I'm saying in point #1 I had not given up on Spurrier. I'm not saying I thought he was certain. He suffered greatly from a staff with little to no NFL experience. If he was insisting on his college entourage, I would have let him go.

Other then that you commented but I saw no disagreement.

[old-timer]

The Skins lost out on this one and all the armchair franchise owners come out of the woodwork. Not that Danny doesn't deserve the criticism. Still, I gotta look at the source and shrug my shoulders a little bit. . .but only because people can be so smug when discussing this whole thing.

It's a lot easier to criticize letting Clark go now that we're 3-7. We did fine last year without Pierce and Smoot. Would we have been better with them? Perhaps. If we went 5-11 instead of 10-6, would we have heard about it every day on these boards? Almost certainly. Funny how that works. . .losing begs for a scapegoat.

But now that we're 3-7 it's a lot easier to talk about the most recent mistake and point to other 'mistakes' as prophetic moments that the Skins ignored.

Until something new comes up, I don't see any original points being made whenever Clark gets brought up on the board (which has been often, to say the least). I see the same things over and over again. Nice, safe criticisms that make us fans look like geniuses. . .confused only because we can't figure out why we're not running the team.

Next time, I hope I see more critiques right as we let a player go, rather than after the season goes south.

The process of losing a team is a long and involved one. It's not always clear that such-and-such a move was bad, it's only in hindsight that one can see a clear pattern of failure. Sure, GW did great his first year, mostly with players that other people accumulated - he did less well the next year, after he got rid of some of them - and he is doing horrible this year, when even more of the pre-GW players are gone and more of the post-GW players are here. Overall, there is the unmistakable result: failure. And the trend is not good, especially when you consider GW's failure in Buffalo. It seems that GW has risen to the level of his incompetence, and needs to resume a lesser role with his team. I would argue the same for Gibbs, actually; I believe the Gibbs 1.0 version of the Redskins were falling apart in 1993 after several years of poor GM'ing following Beathard's departure. The lesson we learn from this, IMHO, is that coaches need to coach and players need to be largely selected by personnnel professionals.

IOTW, all of this post-mortem which you seem to see as complaining is actually constructive; we're identifying the problem and putting forth a potential solution.

And yeah, sure, we're all armchair GMs. But we don't get paid millions of dollars to make these decisions, and we don't spend every working hour of every year devoted to being the best at NFL personnel evaluation. But we ARE the ones paying the bills, one way or another. And we don't like paying for failure.

[1niksder]

Your point is well taken but about a year too late.

This is probably your only poor point, you went for flip.

You missed my point, We didn't stay consistant.... He gave up play calling and Williams added a coach we did pretty go without the year before.

I missed a point not made

Your whole point was we need to be consistant I said you were a year late (but was in agreement). You say I went flip when in a reallity I was agreeing, The Skins however changed the coaching set up on both sides of the bal. Gray being added has caused Jackson to flip out and stop coaching. The offense is something most long time Skins fans don't reconize. Both due to un-needed changes

[#1) I wanted to stay with Spurrier. I was not convinced he couldn't make it. I did want Snyder to require he hire an NFL experienced staff though to stay. Then I was thrilled with Gibbs coming back and have advocated we stick with him to rebuild for the long run. I am still arguing the same thing. I am not a year too late because I said this a year ago. And two years ago...

I'm saying the advise should have been taken last year not that you are a year late the fans have been asking for consistancy for a decade now.

[#2) We are still facing the same issue and we can't go back a year and we still need to tweek and jell, not keep churning. We should have done it last year, we didn't, we should still do it now. We still have a lot of talent.

Didn't like Spurrier, I agree on point #2

Just to be clear, I'm saying in point #1 I had not given up on Spurrier. I'm not saying I thought he was certain. He suffered greatly from a staff with little to no NFL experience. If he was insisting on his college entourage, I would have let him go.

Other then that you commented but I saw no disagreement.

We can't go back a year But I'd look at un-doing as much as possible from the 05 offseason is wwhat I was getting at.

[Irn-Bru]

Actually, we didn't do fine the year after Pierce and Smoot left. That year, the defense was not as good as it had been and has been getting worse very year.

I see. . . .and were you pointing this out at the time? Was anyone?

We may have gotten "worse" on defense statistically, but we were still a top 10 defensive team AND our defense did all of the things that good D does: turnovers, getting the other team off of the field, giving our offense a good chance to win. Are you claiming that the D performed last year in spite of their coach?

I think that the decline happened this year, and especially so since the "fixes" to our weaknesses in Carter and Archuleta have proven to be such bad moves.

I just don't think that having Pierce and Clark leave made it so that our entire defensive squad couldn't tackle. . .they tackled last year (with Williams as their coach, too). The issues are far deeper here.

[Irn-Bru]

IOTW, all of this post-mortem which you seem to see as complaining is actually constructive; we're identifying the problem and putting forth a potential solution.

As I see it the solution being put forth is twofold: (1) Hire a GM, and (2) Keep these veteran contributors instead of making big-name signings.

(1) is an abstract claim that's all fine and good but not actually that helpful, for two reasons. First, it's fine to say "Hire a GM! Hire a GM!" all day, but it's about as sophisticated a point as saying "Hire a coach that can win!" Hire a coach that can win!" Fans on every losing team cry that year after year and are astonished that the owner doesn't 'listen' to them.

Secondly, consider your audience: I'm not the Danny; I can't change things. So it strikes me as a bit pointless to play a broken record on a fan message board, especially on so obvious a point, which is what I was commenting on with my original post.

I mostly agree with (2) and, in my original post, already voiced my criticism of people who wave their ideas around arrogantly as if they are a prophet.

And yeah, sure, we're all armchair GMs. But we don't get paid millions of dollars to make these decisions, and we don't spend every working hour of every year devoted to being the best at NFL personnel evaluation. But we ARE the ones paying the bills, one way or another. And we don't like paying for failure.

That's fine, and I understand the reasoning. . .I just think it's pointless for people to be so smug about it. It's my , so take it for what it is worth (and give me back the change if you must), but it would be a far more interesting conversation if people weren't so attached to the idea of being the prescient board member who knows (and judges) all.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I'd look at un-doing as much as possible from the 05 offseason is wwhat I was getting at.

I see what you mean re-reading it, but that point wasn't clear without saying it. Anyway, when you phrase it that way I largely agree. I like BL and Randel El. We could have overpaid but we can't undo the contracts and I think they're both talented with a QB who can get them the ball. Another nice move was dumping LaVar and actually getting cap back. I am not pro or anti-Saunders now, I think he's had little to work with. Hopefully that'll change with MB FINALLY sitting and JC playing.

Unfortunately some of the things can't be undone. We have a big cap hit for AA and AC even if we dump them and we can't get Ryan back. Maybe AC would be better as a linebacker like SF used him.

What else would you "undo?"

[1niksder]

I just don't think that having Pierce and Clark leave made it so that our entire defensive squad couldn't tackle. . .they tackled last year (with Williams as their coach, too). The issues are far deeper here.

I think the time factor is the whole point here, the fans will wait until the team is failing then throw everthing into one pot, the media will never let the fan forget past perceived faults so they stay fresh.
You'd think Pierce played MLB here for 5-6 years before he walked and that Clark had started for years, neither would be true but for all the talk about how their absents has caused the team to be 3-7 you'd think it was a given.

Again hindsight..

As far as the Friend piece goes, if true it bring a lot into focus.

AP and Smoot left the same year when the major need going into the off season was a need for a pass rushing lineman. This changed the way we we into the draft, hence we come out of it with Rodgers and not Merriman.
The team got better so the fan base left it alone (although there's a staff member on this site that won't ). A year later Clark walks and the secondary tanks. LA went to NY and the weak side is WEAK. that brings the return of the press (now they have something to write about).
Combine the moves made this year with those that were made last year and you see where the problem is.

Note this only deals with the defensive side of the ball, this is because the Gregg and the D carried this team most of last year, and no one wants to blame Gibbs.

Gibbs is at fault here, Gibbs is the head coach and it looks as if he may have given GW too much say in areas that he should only have input. I was going to blame others but then it hit me - Gibbs has always said it starts with him. Gibbs is at the top, he is the man. It's not "the Danny" we can't blame GW or Saunders for any of this. This is a good thing, none of them can fix this.

Gibbs can and will fix this.
First he has to reel in his coaching staff. Of all the moves Gibbs has made as far as players go (that we know were his moves), I really have no problem with. Most people didn't like his QBs (traded draft picks to get both of them), Mark -IMO has done what he was brought in to do, and Jason seem to be ready to take over and we are at the halfway point in Gibbs contract. If there was a player that I'd want back it would be Champ but he was already gone before Gibbs got here, Gibbs still used him(and a pick) to get Clinton Portis. ey has Gibbs name all over it ( it caused a additional draft pick). I give him credit for also drafting Sean Taylor (the whole off-season he said the the 1st pick would be used on the offensive side of the ball). So the problem doesn't seem to be when Gibbs make decisions on the players but when he trust his assistants to make the same type of choices.
The fans have been labeling players "core players" or a "Joe Gibbs guy" so often that Joe must have stopped identifying them.
Mr Redskin paid his way out but I can't knock anyone that made that happen, Peirce, Harris, Clark, and a few others would/could still be here had Joe been making the player choices.
Saunders has a 700 page playbook I'm sure there are plays in there that fit what the coach wants to do. If Williams told AA he'd rush the passer and that Carter as a pass rusher then they don't have to want to change,
Joe Gibbs can MAKE them do it his way, in the end he can always tell them "it's not his money". If he's got coaches "pouting" and others berating players then he as the head coach needs to step in. He brought in Al and Williams brought in Jerry, we knew it would take a minute with Saunders and what we had on the roster (needs were filled but no major upheavals). Gray's arrival has caused Jackson to tinker with the baddest man on the planet. One of them may need to go NOW.

Gibbs is about the only coach that I could think of who can change what this article is suggesting at this point. If this goes on until the off-season it will take longer than the time he has left on his contract to correct.

I blame Gibbs and I have no doubt this will be fixed. Somebody went to the press and not to him. Joe Gibbs won't stand for that - and may not blame the un-named player in the end.

BTW: My first thought was it's got to be Springs, now I not too sure

[dlc]

This is a very good view on perspective of what is said here. This is a message board, not a Redskin Congressional meeting. Our opinions are just opinions.

My $0.02, I think a GM is necessary. GW is a good X's and O's coach, but he obviously doesn't deal with personnel very well. It seems to make more sense to have a strategy guy and a personnel guy then to have a CBs guy and a Safeties guy. Many people have pointed out that successful teams have often had conflicts between coaches and GMs.

In response to the article, you can't always cop out and say that a balanced article is always necessary and the truth is in the middle. Usually if someone has truth on their side that criticizes someone else, the middle is sometimes more fiction than one side.

As for being fair and open-minded, why is Norv always ridiculed? He led us to the playoffs and was fired when we were still in the playoff hunt, despite major injuries.

IOTW, all of this post-mortem which you seem to see as complaining is actually constructive; we're identifying the problem and putting forth a potential solution.

As I see it the solution being put forth is twofold: (1) Hire a GM, and (2) Keep these veteran contributors instead of making big-name signings.

(1) is an abstract claim that's all fine and good but not actually that helpful, for two reasons. First, it's fine to say "Hire a GM! Hire a GM!" all day, but it's about as sophisticated a point as saying "Hire a coach that can win!" Hire a coach that can win!" Fans on every losing team cry that year after year and are astonished that the owner doesn't 'listen' to them.

Secondly, consider your audience: I'm not the Danny; I can't change things. So it strikes me as a bit pointless to play a broken record on a fan message board, especially on so obvious a point, which is what I was commenting on with my original post.

I mostly agree with (2) and, in my original post, already voiced my criticism of people who wave their ideas around arrogantly as if they are a prophet.

And yeah, sure, we're all armchair GMs. But we don't get paid millions of dollars to make these decisions, and we don't spend every working hour of every year devoted to being the best at NFL personnel evaluation. But we ARE the ones paying the bills, one way or another. And we don't like paying for failure.

That's fine, and I understand the reasoning. . .I just think it's pointless for people to be so smug about it. It's my , so take it for what it is worth (and give me back the change if you must), but it would be a far more interesting conversation if people weren't so attached to the idea of being the prescient board member who knows (and judges) all.

[TincoSkin]

now, there are six pages here and i didnt read them all so if this has been touched on ... you know.


i had no idea the secondary doesnt have one meeting!! whaaa??? having a coach for the corners and a coach for the safties makes no sense. they are a flowing secondary unit that covers for eachother. their positions are so interconnected it is stupid not to have a cohesive secondary plan. what is the deal???

as far as undoing anything, i think this is one major flaw to undo. we have a coach we can let go.


too many cooks spoil the broth.

in addition, i think when we are more injury free we will have a greater ability to play the scheme that GW wants. not that injuries is what did us in but it will help.. i wish we could get peirson back.

[dnpmakkah]

I hope Joe Gibbs takes a more hands on approach regarding all aspects of this team. Offense, defense and special teams should be under his wings from this point forward.

If this team is going to lose then I would much rather this team suck under the control of Gibbs than suck under the control of Williams/Saunders. Gibbs actually cares about the Redskins and wants to see them win. These other coaches don't care about this team/fans the way he does and if we have to lose with him in total control and I can accept that.

[The Hogster]

This underscores why we need a strong GM...when the coordinators are essentially making personell decisions they have way too much power.

The arrogance is even evident in Williams' press conferences, the journalists can't even get 3 words out before he rants off on a soliloquy about how great his scheme can be if the players blah blah blah.

[1niksder]

CB Carlos Rogers probably put it best, “maybe there should be another article to come out next week to motivate us some more.” He’s referring to late week ESPN article by Tom Friend that exposed sever internal strife within the Redskins defensive coaching staff..

[welch]

The arrogance is even evident in Williams' press conferences, the journalists can't even get 3 words out before he rants off on a soliloquy about how great his scheme can be if the players blah blah blah.

No different than last year, when Williams was our hero, or the year before, when Williams and his inter-changebale parts defense led the team.

Was Petibone arrogant? Yes. Big deal. Same with George Allen.

If "interchangable" is bad then name a defensive player who started throughout Petibone's era. I'll give you Monte Coleman, who was a regular. Who else??

Or name three linebackers before Wilbur Marshall.

Who were the starting DB's in SB 17, 18, 22, and 26?

[The Hogster]

The arrogance is even evident in Williams' press conferences, the journalists can't even get 3 words out before he rants off on a soliloquy about how great his scheme can be if the players blah blah blah.

No different than last year, when Williams was our hero, or the year before, when Williams and his inter-changebale parts defense led the team.

Was Petibone arrogant? Yes. Big deal. Same with George Allen.

If "interchangable" is bad then name a defensive player who started throughout Petibone's era. I'll give you Monte Coleman, who was a regular. Who else??

Or name three linebackers before Wilbur Marshall.

Who were the starting DB's in SB 17, 18, 22, and 26?

What does your post have to do with the price of rice in China? I can name linebackers..Kurt Goeuvia and Andre Collins come to mind right off the bat...Caldwell and Derek Bunch were also standours.

This is irrelevant since it was pre free agency and players were not coming in and out the way they are now...besides, we had a GM that was doing it and not Pettibone.

People aren't criticizing his mere arrogant tone, but the arrogance that pervades when he's aloud to make personel decisions....he believes in his own genius to the point where he believes that the x's and o's are more important than getting quality players....he may really believe he can replace people...and Im sure we can...but HE hasn't done the best job picking the players to do it.

[PulpExposure]

Maybe AC would be better as a linebacker like SF used him.

Or maybe we should be using him like he's supposed to be used. This was in the Friend article:

There have been myriad scapegoats, too, all players that Williams asked for. Scapegoat No. 1: Andre Carter. He was brought in to rush the passer, but players say Williams calls so many run stunts, he's not being allowed to do what he does best: speed rush.

"Last year, the D-line started playing well when they straight started rushing the passer," the player said. "They could beat guys one on one and get in a rhythm and tee off. Now, we're trying to get too exotic, so we've got Cornelius Griffin doing exotic stuff, who doesn't rush on third down anymore basically. … All these stunts and games? The D-linemen are just saying, man, just let us go, just let us go."

What the hell? Run stunting a 260 pound DE and not allowing him to speed rush? What, you hope he'll just overpower someone 80 pounds heavier than him? Just let him go get the QB....

[1niksder]

Maybe AC would be better as a linebacker like SF used him.

Or maybe we should be using him like he's supposed to be used. This was in the Friend article:

There have been myriad scapegoats, too, all players that Williams asked for. Scapegoat No. 1: Andre Carter. He was brought in to rush the passer, but players say Williams calls so many run stunts, he's not being allowed to do what he does best: speed rush.

"Last year, the D-line started playing well when they straight started rushing the passer," the player said. "They could beat guys one on one and get in a rhythm and tee off. Now, we're trying to get too exotic, so we've got Cornelius Griffin doing exotic stuff, who doesn't rush on third down anymore basically. … All these stunts and games? The D-linemen are just saying, man, just let us go, just let us go."

What the hell? Run stunting a 260 pound DE and not allowing him to speed rush? What, you hope he'll just overpower someone 80 pounds heavier than him? Just let him go get the QB....

I think he just let them go today

[SlkyCaramel]

For the record on Post Show Live, Shawn Springs told reporters that it WAS NOT HIM, and that his father always taught him not to 'air out dirty laundry' so he wouldn't do it just because his father would kick his ass if he did lol. He also said that if he did feel that way, he would have just said it to Williams and Gibbs, because that is the type of relationship he feels he has with them both - one where he can be honest. And Phillip Daniels again stood behind GW and said that the defensive players still believe in him a great deal.

And honestly? I think after watching today's game, I have determined that very little of the problems on defense were GW, because obviously today they proved that they can play. Why the heck hasn't the defense been doing that all season? It takes an article basically calling them out to get them to actually play? And I don't for a second believe that the majority of the defense doesn't believe in GW, I just don't believe that, I think they just didn't believe in themselves (and yes, that many of them were unhappy about moves made i.e. letting Ryan Clark go).

The problem with the Redskins is ALL TALK, NO ACTION. It's ridiculous that it took an article on ESPN SLAMMING the organization to actually get people to go out and play.

I still think GW is an excellent coach and I hope he remains in Washington for a long time. Yes, the defense is less than stellar this year. He's been here three years, 2 of those 3 the Redskins were a top 10 defense, one bad year and everyone is calling for his job? Umm...and then people write about the lack of stability in the Redskins organization? About how people are being hired and fired left and right? How exactly does that make any type of sense.....

And IMO if anybody needs to go....Al Saunders can exit stage left with Jackson not far behind.

And this?

Snyder, according to sources, knows all about this, and, there is a sense the front office will push to replace Jackson and perhaps even Williams next season. At the same time, Williams still has supporters in the organization, too. They say the players ripping him have axes to grind, that Williams isn't the one whiffing on tackles and botching coverages. They say it's horrendous that one angry, anonymous player won't go on the record with his complaints, and they point out Williams hasn't played with a full roster all season. For instance, Williams has had to operate much of the year without a healthy Shawn Springs, his best corner, and without safety Pierson Prioleau, who was going to start for Archuleta on opening night until he tore his ACL on the opening kickoff. It doesn't help, either, that linebackers Marshall and Holdman aren't tackling well (Marshall's coming off of shoulder surgery), and there are some defensive players who aren't afraid to point the finger at themselves.

I agree with.

Anyway, today's game kind of makes this entire article seem kind of ridiculous, because the defense proved they can play when they want to, and GW didn't DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT defensively than what he's been doing all season. Its just that now people actually stepped up to the plate, the tackling was better, people stuck to their assignments, the team got turnovers, etc.

[welch]

What does your post have to do with the price of rice in China? I can name linebackers..Kurt Goeuvia and Andre Collins come to mind right off the bat...Caldwell and Derek Bunch were also standours.

Clear point is that Petibone was always interchangeble. Personally. Invented the strong safety position for George Allen when Allen coached the Bears defense. Came from Allen's Rams and played for two seasons, when Allen replaced him with Ken Huston.

The Petibone defense always changed. Gouveia played in SB 26... before then, the Redskins has Olekiwicz, Coleman, Kauffman, Kubin: they played, most of then, in SB 17, 18, and 22. As a unit.

The DL was steady for about four years: Mann and Manley, Butz and Grant. Then Grant took Plan B free agency, and Butz retired, and Manley went on to drugs. Replacable parts,

No one started DB for all of Petibone's years. Green came in the third year. The rest came as needed: remebers the two Davis's? Barry Wilburnn? Todd Bowles? Danny Copeland?

- The price, which is more than the tea in China, is that the best Redksins DC replaced players as he saw fit.

- People called hm arrogant, or gruff. He knew what he was doing, he had a complex defense, and he won.

- Teams win by having a system -- Wiilliams has one, just as Gibbs has one -- and by fitting players into it.

This has been a sloppy season -- one out of three -- but it's not over.

[No, TC, no juice...just couldn't sleep so I was typing late at night. Corrections made, though.]]

[tcwest10]

Welch...you been hittin' the grape juice again?
Thanks for the quick trip down memory lane. Of course, you're right. Sadly, Richie's success on that side of the ball couldn't translate to a HC's responsibilities.
It ushered in the Norval years...from which I've yet to recover, fully.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Maybe AC would be better as a linebacker like SF used him.

Or maybe we should be using him like he's supposed to be used. This was in the Friend article:

There have been myriad scapegoats, too, all players that Williams asked for. Scapegoat No. 1: Andre Carter. He was brought in to rush the passer, but players say Williams calls so many run stunts, he's not being allowed to do what he does best: speed rush.

"Last year, the D-line started playing well when they straight started rushing the passer," the player said. "They could beat guys one on one and get in a rhythm and tee off. Now, we're trying to get too exotic, so we've got Cornelius Griffin doing exotic stuff, who doesn't rush on third down anymore basically. … All these stunts and games? The D-linemen are just saying, man, just let us go, just let us go."

What the hell? Run stunting a 260 pound DE and not allowing him to speed rush? What, you hope he'll just overpower someone 80 pounds heavier than him? Just let him go get the QB....

I think he just let them go today

Interesting you quoted me then made a differnt point then what I said. I commented on position. You commented on role.

Actually being a DE means his is more required to participate in the run stop. Maybe that's why SF didn't have him play DE. But he wants to play DE. You can't just power rush and ignore the run as a DE. Remember Dexter? The issues there? He was a great pass rusher but we always had issues containing the run. Versus Charles Mann on the other side who did both so well.

[poper2]

I hope the defensive secondary player who speakin up is not Adam "Are you done with me yet" Archaletta?

[JansenFan]

Who else would it be?

[SkinzCanes]

Who else would it be?

I still think that it was Springs. The unnamed player references the last 2 seasons so I doubt that it's AA, Rogers, or any of the acquisitions from the last 2 seasons. If not Springs then I guess Washington, Daniels, or Griffin.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Who else would it be?

I still think that it was Springs. The unnamed player references the last 2 seasons so I doubt that it's AA, Rogers, or any of the acquisitions from the last 2 seasons. If not Springs then I guess Washington, Daniels, or Griffin.

I doubt it's one of the big name players. I say that because they tend to avoid things like the article that can cause problems in the locker room. And contrary to a lot of views it's hard to play in the NFL w/o some brains. If you're a big name player and slam your team, including the coaches, you are hurting yourself and that's not why they make so much money.

I think it's a journeyman sub resenting they are not playing more. Not that it makes them "wrong" but it tints their view and maybe they don't get the attention they want from the coaches, which makes them describe the coaches as arrogant and out of touch in general, not just with them.

[roybus14]

I still say it's Springs. [X-Files music in the background]

Tom Friend and Springs both grew up in Montgomery County. Both were/are in Seattle. Most of the players in the Secondary have not been here as long as Springs to say "the past 2 seasons"....

This was done in a round about way by a player on this team that probably knows Friend personally or knows how to get in touch with him and I don't think that Friend would do a story like this if the "un-named" player was not a significant part of that defense like Springs is.