There's a lot of football left guys...

Talk about the Washington Football Team here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?
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Post by SkinzCanes »

Joe I never said it was likely.

It's just something.... it's hope.


But the problem is that the decisions that are being made are hurting our chances for being competitive next season. Nobody is saying to give up on the rest of the season but you have to set realiztic expectations. Is there a chance of the playoffs? I suppose so but it is unrealistic. Considering that the coaches need to prepare for next season, and by that I mean getting Campbell ready to go. There is no point in chasing a highly unlikely playoff spot with Brunell at the cost of Campbell's development. Right now it looks like Gibbs is going to stick with Boonell, and how does that help the longterm prospects of this franchise? The answer is it doesn't. I love Gibbs but by playing Brunell the rest of the season he is sabatoging our chances to compete next season. If we keep starting Brunell and don't make the playoffs then we have pretty much wasted not only this season, but also next season.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

There is no point in chasing a highly unlikely playoff spot with Brunell at the cost of Campbell's development.


This is where I would disagree, and where I hope Gibbs would disagree (it appears that he does). There is everything at stake whenever there is still a chance to make the playoffs. If we are 2-8 in three games and still playing Brunell then I will be scratching my head along with everyone else.

However, it would break my heart to see a Redskins team give up on a season, however slim their odds to make the playoffs. And, honestly, if we go on a 3-4 game win streak after our bye, our odds don't look so bad. . .

It isn't hurting Campbell's development to keep him benched when (a) he's not the best QB on the roster and (b) we're still in the playoff hunt. In three weeks, depening on our performance, your argument may have more weight, but until then it's only a matter of how each of us "feels" about the Skins chances in the rest of the season.
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Post by Mursilis »

Irn-Bru wrote:
There is no point in chasing a highly unlikely playoff spot with Brunell at the cost of Campbell's development.


This is where I would disagree, and where I hope Gibbs would disagree (it appears that he does). There is everything at stake whenever there is still a chance to make the playoffs. If we are 2-8 in three games and still playing Brunell then I will be scratching my head along with everyone else.

However, it would break my heart to see a Redskins team give up on a season, however slim their odds to make the playoffs. And, honestly, if we go on a 3-4 game win streak after our bye, our odds don't look so bad. . .

It isn't hurting Campbell's development to keep him benched when (a) he's not the best QB on the roster and (b) we're still in the playoff hunt. In three weeks, depening on our performance, your argument may have more weight, but until then it's only a matter of how each of us "feels" about the Skins chances in the rest of the season.


Again, we know (a) how? Not to beat a dead horse (too late!!!), but there are some of us, not without some basis in fact, who believe that keeping Brunell in there IS giving up on the season. Sure, playing JC is a huge gamble, I won't deny that, but sometimes you have to risk making a change to win. Right now, we're not playing to win; we're just playing not to lose, and in doing so, we're losing. I simply do not believe this team will make the playoffs with Brunell as the starter.
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Post by SkinzCanes »

It isn't hurting Campbell's development to keep him benched when (a) he's not the best QB on the roster and (b) we're still in the playoff hunt. In three weeks, depening on our performance, your argument may have more weight, but until then it's only a matter of how each of us "feels" about the Skins chances in the rest of the season.


What playoff hunt? We are 2-5 with no wins in the division or conference. We are a mess on defense, offense, and special teams. To even have a shot at the playoffs we would have to go 8-1 the rest of the way. There is simply no way that that is going to happen, not with the schedule that we play. We aren't even competitive in our losses and somehow you can still talk about the playoffs :roll:
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Mursilis wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
There is no point in chasing a highly unlikely playoff spot with Brunell at the cost of Campbell's development.


This is where I would disagree, and where I hope Gibbs would disagree (it appears that he does). There is everything at stake whenever there is still a chance to make the playoffs. If we are 2-8 in three games and still playing Brunell then I will be scratching my head along with everyone else.

However, it would break my heart to see a Redskins team give up on a season, however slim their odds to make the playoffs. And, honestly, if we go on a 3-4 game win streak after our bye, our odds don't look so bad. . .

It isn't hurting Campbell's development to keep him benched when (a) he's not the best QB on the roster and (b) we're still in the playoff hunt. In three weeks, depening on our performance, your argument may have more weight, but until then it's only a matter of how each of us "feels" about the Skins chances in the rest of the season.


Again, we know (a) how? Not to beat a dead horse (too late!!!), but there are some of us, not without some basis in fact, who believe that keeping Brunell in there IS giving up on the season. Sure, playing JC is a huge gamble, I won't deny that, but sometimes you have to risk making a change to win. Right now, we're not playing to win; we're just playing not to lose, and in doing so, we're losing. I simply do not believe this team will make the playoffs with Brunell as the starter.



I see your argument, but this is how I'm seeing it:

(1) We, as fans, have an epistemic problem when it comes to Campbell--we really haven't seen enough of him to be great judges of how well he will perform on Sunday (one way or the other).
(2) The coaches believe that Brunell is the best QB on the roster when it comes to winning week in, week out.
(3) It is also possible that JC is the best quarterback on our roster; I can see a legitimate case for this.
(4) However, even people maintaining (3) admit that it is a gamble. From here the argument switches from "who's the best QB" to "what's best for our QB of the future?"--an entirely different debate.
(5) While you point out that it is also possible to believe that having MB play will ruin the season as far as QB play goes, not everyone agrees with this, and there is good reason to think that it is not true. See (1) and (2).

Therefore, while you come to the conclusion that all is lost with Brunell and that Campbell would (or could) be better, there is obviously enough room to come to the opposite conclusion with as much intelligence and rationality. . .at least, in my humble opinion. ;)

As for SkinzCanes:

SkinzCanes wrote:What playoff hunt? We are 2-5 with no wins in the division or conference. We are a mess on defense, offense, and special teams. To even have a shot at the playoffs we would have to go 8-1 the rest of the way. There is simply no way that that is going to happen, not with the schedule that we play. We aren't even competitive in our losses and somehow you can still talk about the playoffs :roll:


You write in this thread that the season is over. I respond by pointing out that it isn't. You respond with sarcasm. . .but without any new, substantive arguments. Your point about making the playoffs being a long-shot is taken (it was last time), but I have yet to see how longshot = impossible. (And rolling eyes don't really constitute an argument. . . ;))
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Post by Mursilis »

Irn-Bru wrote:
Mursilis wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
There is no point in chasing a highly unlikely playoff spot with Brunell at the cost of Campbell's development.


This is where I would disagree, and where I hope Gibbs would disagree (it appears that he does). There is everything at stake whenever there is still a chance to make the playoffs. If we are 2-8 in three games and still playing Brunell then I will be scratching my head along with everyone else.

However, it would break my heart to see a Redskins team give up on a season, however slim their odds to make the playoffs. And, honestly, if we go on a 3-4 game win streak after our bye, our odds don't look so bad. . .

It isn't hurting Campbell's development to keep him benched when (a) he's not the best QB on the roster and (b) we're still in the playoff hunt. In three weeks, depening on our performance, your argument may have more weight, but until then it's only a matter of how each of us "feels" about the Skins chances in the rest of the season.


Again, we know (a) how? Not to beat a dead horse (too late!!!), but there are some of us, not without some basis in fact, who believe that keeping Brunell in there IS giving up on the season. Sure, playing JC is a huge gamble, I won't deny that, but sometimes you have to risk making a change to win. Right now, we're not playing to win; we're just playing not to lose, and in doing so, we're losing. I simply do not believe this team will make the playoffs with Brunell as the starter.



I see your argument, but this is how I'm seeing it:

(1) We, as fans, have an epistemic problem when it comes to Campbell--we really haven't seen enough of him to be great judges of how well he will perform on Sunday (one way or the other).
(2) The coaches believe that Brunell is the best QB on the roster when it comes to winning week in, week out.
(3) It is also possible that JC is the best quarterback on our roster; I can see a legitimate case for this.
(4) However, even people maintaining (3) admit that it is a gamble. From here the argument switches from "who's the best QB" to "what's best for our QB of the future?"--an entirely different debate.
(5) While you point out that it is also possible to believe that having MB play will ruin the season as far as QB play goes, not everyone agrees with this, and there is good reason to think that it is not true. See (1) and (2).

Therefore, while you come to the conclusion that all is lost with Brunell and that Campbell would (or could) be better, there is obviously enough room to come to the opposite conclusion with as much intelligence and rationality. . .at least, in my humble opinion. ;)


Nicely put. I'm still not agreeing that 'chances of winning w/ Brunell > chances of winning w/ Campbell', but we're not going to settle that any time soon, so there's not much left to say. But I appreciate that you're keeping it respectful.
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Post by SkinzCanes »

You write in this thread that the season is over. I respond by pointing out that it isn't. You respond with sarcasm. . .but without any new, substantive arguments. Your point about making the playoffs being a long-shot is taken (it was last time), but I have yet to see how longshot = impossible. (And rolling eyes don't really constitute an argument. . . Wink


You want an argument for why we wont make the playoffs? Well lets see

1. We are 2-5 and would have to go 8-1 the rest of the way to have a chance. Anything less would be impossible because we have yet to win a game in the conference or division, and we that makes a HUGE difference with regard to the tiebreaker.

2. Our defense can't stop anybody from scoring. The rest of the way we play against some very good offensive teams and unless the defense can somehow overhaul 90% of its roster they aren't going to get better. More specifically, the defensive line is banged up. Even when fully healthy the unit is below average, with Griffin being the only legitimate NFL starter there. Wynn is old and innefective. Carter cant stop the run and cant pressure the qb. Salavae hasn't done anything this season and isn't healthy. Griffin is getting older and can't pressure the qb. Next the linebackers....Washington is solid but hasn't made any plays this season. Holdman is out of position most of time, and when he isn't he can't get off of his blocks or tackle. Marshall is hurt, and when he isn't he is playing out of position. Secondary....Springs is still hurt. Rogers is hurt and when healthy has been a huge dissapointment. Wright/Rumph/Archueletta are horrible, plain and simple. They can't cover worth a lick. Taylor is having to cover for AA's struggles and as a result isn't being as effective as he could be.

3. Offense. The offense is inconsistant at best and terrible most of the time. Jansen and Samuels are playing terribly, Dockery is inconsistant, and Rabach is playing as if he's being paid to collect holding penalties. Portis is banged up and isn't getting enough carries. We can't help the oline passblock with our backs because those are the only people that Brunell throws to on 3rd and long. We have a system that doesn't work with the qb that we have. Listen to the Fox broadcast and see what Aikman said about his conversation with Saunders. Saunders said he has to modify his system to fit the qb that he has (not a good sign). We have top receivers and a top TE, but we have no way of getting them the ball. Our 3rd down conversions are a joke, as we constatly throw 3 yard passes on 3rd and long. There is no vertical passing game. Brunell is afraid of getting hit and wont stand in the pocket. We have 5 running backs but yet we can't figure out a way to use any of them effectively.

4. Special Teams. Our punter is an idiot and inconsistant. We cut our kicker only to replace him with a guy that missed 2 relatively easy kicks in a dome.

5. Team unity seems to be waivering. You have Saunders questioning Portis for taking himself out of the game and saying that he has to change his system bc of the qb. Meanwhile Brunell and others have questioned the need for the new system. Arguments among players are starting to surface. Cooley/Sellers during the Giants game after Cooley was frsutrated for not getting the ball when open. Randle El and Lloyd getting into it yesterday.

6. Coaching problems. Lack of discpline among the players. Lack of halftime adjustments. GW said they did the same thing in the second half on defense as they did in the first half. Hello?!?! They're called adjustments. The other team adjusted, you have to also. Terrible clock and in-game management and decisions. The decisions to go for it on 4th and 1 agaisnt the Titans, delay of game penalites, etc.

7. Injuries. Even when fully healthy this team isnt that good. Springs, Rogers, Portis, Randle El, Moss, Salavae, Griffin, Marshall are all banged up to some extent.

8. Tough schedule. The rest of the way we only play 1 team with a record below .500 (Tampa Bay). And unlike us they are progressing as the season is moving on and we will certainlty be underdogs in that game.

I can think of more arguments for why we wont make the playoffs but I got tired of typing. So tell me how all of those problems can be fixed and maybe then we can begin talking about the playoffs.
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Post by Mursilis »

SkinzCanes wrote:I can think of more arguments for why we wont make the playoffs but I got tired of typing. So tell me how all of those problems can be fixed and maybe then we can begin talking about the playoffs.


You're missing the point - Irn-Bru never said it was PROBABLE the 'skins would make the playoffs, only POSSIBLE (as in, a miracle). Just like the lottery - it's POSSIBLE I could win the lottery, it's just not PROBABLE (in other words, the odds are tremendously against me).
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Well, that Mursilis, AND that I would take the Skins' odds over the lottery any day. :) Possibility is a matter of degrees. . .at this point it isn't unrealistic to say that the Skins could recover and make the playoffs. It happens in the NFL (though not often).


SkinzCanes wrote:
You write in this thread that the season is over. I respond by pointing out that it isn't. You respond with sarcasm. . .but without any new, substantive arguments. Your point about making the playoffs being a long-shot is taken (it was last time), but I have yet to see how longshot = impossible. (And rolling eyes don't really constitute an argument. . . Wink


You want an argument for why we wont make the playoffs? Well lets see

1. We are 2-5 and would have to go 8-1 the rest of the way to have a chance.


8-1 would get us in. Very few teams go 10-6 and don't make the playoffs. . .and they almost always have to play in a division where 2 other teams in the same division make the playoffs. Especially in an NFC that has been weaker in recent years, 10-6 will get us in.

2. Our defense can't stop anybody from scoring. The rest of the way we play against some very good offensive teams and unless the defense can somehow overhaul 90% of its roster they aren't going to get better.


I still can't figure out what happened to the D that shut down Cincy in preseason and had my mouth watering.

90% is a bit dramatic but the D needs something to happen aside from people recovering from injuries. We might have the weakest coverage secondary in the league right now.

3. Offense. The offense is inconsistant at best and terrible most of the time. Jansen and Samuels are playing terribly, Dockery is inconsistant, and Rabach is playing as if he's being paid to collect holding penalties. Portis is banged up and isn't getting enough carries. We can't help the oline passblock with our backs because those are the only people that Brunell throws to on 3rd and long. We have a system that doesn't work with the qb that we have.


The line has been performing OK, aside from maybe Sammuels and the penalties that they incur. I can easily see them turning things around, and I'll give two examples: (1) Last year's final stretch. . .the oLine absolutely dominated. (2) In our 2 victories this year, and even in some losses, the o-line has shown the potential to play well.


4. Special Teams. Our punter is an idiot and inconsistant. We cut our kicker only to replace him with a guy that missed 2 relatively easy kicks in a dome.


Can't agree on the punter. He's been inconsistent, but mostly in the games where he did double duty with kickoffs. Forget his baggage from last year and he hasn't performed poorly. Check out his stats. He's had some good long punts, plenty of inside the 20 kicks, and a so-so average. Not quite "idiot" status.

I agree about the kicker, and hopefully that improves, but Hall appeared to be healthy coming into this year. Sometimes a team will hold onto damaged goods because of how much they paid for them. . .this is probably the case with the Skins. We hoped that he'd get better; we lost the dice roll.


5. Team unity seems to be waivering. You have Saunders questioning Portis for taking himself out of the game and saying that he has to change his system bc of the qb. Meanwhile Brunell and others have questioned the need for the new system. Arguments among players are starting to surface. Cooley/Sellers during the Giants game after Cooley was frsutrated for not getting the ball when open. Randle El and Lloyd getting into it yesterday.


Those descriptions are stretching it out. . .I think you pulled out every shred of evidence of disunity that you could. I don't put any stock in the playcalling "contraversies," that Saunders quote doesn't say anything good or bad by itself.

The player 'disputes' are expected when your team has had the frustrating season that we have. From all appearances in interviews our guys are showing 100% class and seem to be sticking together. There is very little evidence otherwise, honestly, and we all know that winning cures many ills.

Of all problems, locker-room cancer is not one--this is the weakest criticism IMO. My 2 cents

6. Coaching problems. Lack of discpline among the players. Lack of halftime adjustments. GW said they did the same thing in the second half on defense as they did in the first half. Hello?!?! They're called adjustments. The other team adjusted, you have to also. Terrible clock and in-game management and decisions. The decisions to go for it on 4th and 1 agaisnt the Titans, delay of game penalites, etc.


I agree with this point almost entirely. We make adjustments but other teams seem to outplay us.

7. Injuries. Even when fully healthy this team isnt that good. Springs, Rogers, Portis, Randle El, Moss, Salavae, Griffin, Marshall are all banged up to some extent.


This is true. Hopefully the bye week helps, and you never know what the rest of the season might bring. I'm going to remain optimistic.


8. Tough schedule. The rest of the way we only play 1 team with a record below .500 (Tampa Bay). And unlike us they are progressing as the season is moving on and we will certainlty be underdogs in that game.


Carolina hasn't played great teams and we get them at home. One of our road games is against our weakest opponent. Division games are just that--we went 3-0 against division opponents to close out last year, and there are times when we can't beat a vastly outmatched division opponent to save our life. We'll see.

This schedule is hard but it is by no means undoable.


I can think of more arguments for why we wont make the playoffs but I got tired of typing. So tell me how all of those problems can be fixed and maybe then we can begin talking about the playoffs.


I hope that you'd admit that it isn't a one-dimensional case. Call the season over if you must, but there are good reasons to maintain hope as a Skins fan.

HTTR
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Post by Mursilis »

Irn-Bru wrote:Well, that Mursilis, AND that I would take the Skins' odds over the lottery any day. :) Possibility is a matter of degrees. . .at this point it isn't unrealistic to say that the Skins could recover and make the playoffs. It happens in the NFL (though not often).


Are you speculating, or has a team ever recovered from 2-5 to make the playoffs? :-k I can't think of any, but that doesn't prove anything.
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Re: There's a lot of football left guys...

Post by nychog »

JPM36 wrote:I refuse to give up on the Redskins. I just won't do it.

Let's get healthy over the bye week, beat the Cowboys, and start thinking positive again.

Who thought we would make the playoffs after we lost back-to-back home games to the Raiders and Chargers? I'll admit that I did not.

If we can win 5 in a row last year, we can win 7 or 8 out of 9 this year and get back into this race. We still have all 3 division rivals coming to our house. We still have a lot of winnable games left on our schedule.


I am not about to give up on the Redskins in October. Let's hang tough and start winning some football games.


We WILL turn this thing around.


Let's see if you change your tune after we lose another game and we're 2-6 or 3-6. I guess it's always possible to win 7 or 8 games in a row. On second thought... after looking at our schedule, there's no way in hell that's going to happen. We have one team left on our schedule that's below 500 and that's Tampa Bay. They would kick our ass if we played them like we played tenn or indi.

Last years 6 game run was great but we also played the Cards 5-11 Rams 6-10 eagles 6-10.

Maybe I'm too must of a realist but I think it's time you passed the joint. We are done, done, done, and done.

The rest of this season should be looked at as our preseason for '07.
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Post by Irn-Bru »

Mursilis wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:Well, that Mursilis, AND that I would take the Skins' odds over the lottery any day. :) Possibility is a matter of degrees. . .at this point it isn't unrealistic to say that the Skins could recover and make the playoffs. It happens in the NFL (though not often).


Are you speculating, or has a team ever recovered from 2-5 to make the playoffs? :-k I can't think of any, but that doesn't prove anything.



One of ESPN's yearly things in the NFL is to talk about the dreaded 2-5 record--it's always good for a Lenny P or John Clayton article. Teams have made the playoffs after that start, but they are few and far between.
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Post by Mursilis »

Irn-Bru wrote:
Mursilis wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:Well, that Mursilis, AND that I would take the Skins' odds over the lottery any day. :) Possibility is a matter of degrees. . .at this point it isn't unrealistic to say that the Skins could recover and make the playoffs. It happens in the NFL (though not often).


Are you speculating, or has a team ever recovered from 2-5 to make the playoffs? :-k I can't think of any, but that doesn't prove anything.



One of ESPN's yearly things in the NFL is to talk about the dreaded 2-5 record--it's always good for a Lenny P or John Clayton article. Teams have made the playoffs after that start, but they are few and far between.


I'd be happier about our odds if all our losses had been close, but we only played the Titans and Vikings fairly close. Good teams, the kinds of teams we'll be playing for the next 9 games, have killed us by substantial margins. I see nothing about our current situation which indicates that will change any time soon.
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Post by The Hogster »

9 in a row, or we don't go....Im down.!!!!
SPIT HAPPENS!!
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Post by redskingush »

Nobody's gonna give up on the Skins but it doesnt take a genius to see they have just about sunk themselves. 2-5 with 9 left. 2.5 out of the division, the one ray of light id the 4 remaining division games. They are must have games. 8-1 but realistically 9-0 to make the playoffs.
GO SKINS GO!!
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