Vincent

sch1977 · Post by **sch1977** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:39 am

Did Troy get any PT yesterday? I didn't see him, but I could have missed it.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:47 am

Yes he played safety

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:17 am

This dude has been here for all of 5 minutes and is already stealing time from AA. And we made him the highest paid safety in the NFL. :lol:

No Redskin fan can ever trash talk Roy Williams and his sucky coverage skills ever again.

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:45 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:This dude has been here for all of 5 minutes and is already stealing time from AA. And we made him the highest paid safety in the NFL.

No Redskin fan can ever trash talk Roy Williams and his sucky coverage skills ever again.

I can and I will on Nov. 5 to the cowpies fans.

But if they say something about Archuleta I'll probably agree with them. :lol:

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:49 am

I'm not defending Adam archuletta, he hasn't done enough to warrant doing so.

But are any of you EVER going to take into account that he is a strong safety that for some unexplicable reason is being used almost EXCLUSIVELY like a free safety?

I mean bag on the guy all you like, but to me it just comes off as a little empty when some-to-most of the problem is HOW he's being used.

I don't hear anyone talking crap about Sean Taylor. I said it last week and I'll say it again... Sean Taylor is the free safety... when your secondary is one of the most porous in football, not looking at the lack of effectiveness of the free safety is just irresponsible IMO.

Arch is being asked to do what he doesn't do well... we're accentuating his shortcomings rather than utilizing his assets.

Please don't misunderstand... that doesn't mean I think he can cover worth a lick... but he never could... that isn't what his role SHOULD be either.

Losing Prioleau apparently meant continuing to use Arch like we would have used Prioleau, and IMO, that's just a bad coaching judgement. And if prioleau hadn't been injured, i don't think there's any way you'd have seen Arch be put in so many positions to fail.

Arch may not have 'done much', but Gregg Williams has done even less with him.

My 2 cents

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:01 am

As far as Vincent, I though his addition was key to the performance of the defense in the first half. He is exactlly what was needed to start to shore up the deficiencies in the secondary. With a little more playing time, we could see a little improvement in our defensive back field.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:20 am

But if we knew AA couldn't cover when he got here why make him the leagues highest paid safety? If he only brings one dimension to this team does that warrant such a high price tag?

Cleary this issue wouldn't be so big if AA was out for the season?

Pierson is the better safety and is being paid a lot less and when he asks for a bigger contract the Skins will baulk and send him away disgruntled also.

Vincent having been here 4 weeks has a better grasp of the secondary.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:52 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:But if we knew AA couldn't cover when he got here why make him the leagues highest paid safety? If he only brings one dimension to this team does that warrant such a high price tag?

Cleary this issue wouldn't be so big if AA was out for the season?

Pierson is the better safety and is being paid a lot less and when he asks for a bigger contract the Skins will baulk and send him away disgruntled also.

Vincent having been here 4 weeks has a better grasp of the secondary.

Why does Vincent have a better grasp of the secondary? Couldn't it just be that he's a better player? He also came from Buffalo where they use a very similar defense anyway.

I don't care if the media TELL you that Archuletta is the highest paid safety in the league... he isn't... he's not even the highest paid safety on our team right now. If you prefer to go with what the media tell you, that's your prerogative; but they don't understand the salary cap at all and aren't usually qualified to comment on it... but if you want to take their word, go right ahead. They can't figure out that only guaranteed money means anything... and they're not going to actually figure out what a player will ACTUALLY see as opposed to what they could POSSIBLY see.

AA isn't playing to what he's paid for sure... but he isn't being paid like the media pundits would have you believe. If I had the time, I'd break down a few safety's contracts for you to see what I'm talking about. if I can find some time this week, I'll try and put something together to dispel this myth. AA isn't earning his paycheque right now, but that paycheque ISN'T the biggest safety ticket in the league.

I just don't understand why it is that the strong safety is being pounded for not covering the deep ball when the free safety is nowhere to be found.

Like i said... I'm not defending Archuletta's ability to cover a pass... I'm asking why he's being asked to continually do what he isn't good at? That isn't his fault. He's being put in a position to fail and nothing else... he was brought here to be a blitzing strong safety that had some presence in the box... we have him sitting back in coverage. We cheat Sean Taylor to the line more than AA and has ST ever actually got to a quarterback?

He hasn't been getting to any receivers lately either. :shock:

I think the world of Sean Taylor too, he's just not playing very well right now... like a lot of players. He's still making some big hits, but he isn't making them on receivers.

If you want to talk about how much AA sucks in coverage, that's fine with me... he does, but I just don't understand how the FREE safety gets a pass on the conversation... and right now, he can't cover anyone either. And I don't understand how you can not assess blame to the defensive co-ordinator that continues to put the guy in a position that an armchair QB knows not to put him.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:58 am

Settle down Chris

Chris Luva Luva wrote:But if we knew AA couldn't cover when he got here why make him the leagues highest paid safety? If he only brings one dimension to this team does that warrant such a high price tag?

Don't beleive the hype 2 safteies signed bigger contracts after AA signed his, AA won't play out the contract so he won't even get half of it.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Cleary this issue wouldn't be so big if AA was out for the season?

It would be a bgger issue with a high priced DB out for the year and getting paid.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Pierson is the better safety and is being paid a lot less and when he asks for a bigger contract the Skins will baulk and send him away disgruntled also.
PP got hurt and none of this would be a issue he would be playing both CB and S and the scheme would be so much different

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Vincent having been here 4 weeks has a better grasp of the secondary.

Don't get ahead of yourself.... he's been here a week

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:28 am

You're right I dont understand the CAP I take you guys word that he isn't paid as much as we may think.

All I can say is that its frustrating. There so much foolishness going on with this team that its hard to pin point one thing. I guess its just a collective melt down.

RedskinsFreak · Post by **RedskinsFreak** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:41 am

BossHog wrote:I'm not defending Adam archuletta, he hasn't done enough to warrant doing so.

But are any of you EVER going to take into account that he is a strong safety that for some unexplicable reason is being used almost EXCLUSIVELY like a free safety?

I mean bag on the guy all you like, but to me it just comes off as a little empty when some-to-most of the problem is HOW he's being used.

I don't hear anyone talking crap about Sean Taylor. I said it last week and I'll say it again... Sean Taylor is the free safety... when your secondary is one of the most porous in football, not looking at the lack of effectiveness of the free safety is just irresponsible IMO.

Arch is being asked to do what he doesn't do well... we're accentuating his shortcomings rather than utilizing his assets.

Not saying they're at the same level but, basically, AA and Taylor are the same player. They bring the same skill set to football -- good in run support and will knock the snot out of you (sometimes at the cost of making a good tackle).

But a FS needs to be a significantly different type player than the SS.. Could that fact have been somehow overlooked in the "Ooh, pretty player. I want one!" department?

The more things change .....

DCGloryYears828791 · Post by **DCGloryYears828791** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:31 am

RedskinsFreak wrote:
BossHog wrote:I'm not defending Adam archuletta, he hasn't done enough to warrant doing so.

But are any of you EVER going to take into account that he is a strong safety that for some unexplicable reason is being used almost EXCLUSIVELY like a free safety?

I mean bag on the guy all you like, but to me it just comes off as a little empty when some-to-most of the problem is HOW he's being used.

I don't hear anyone talking crap about Sean Taylor. I said it last week and I'll say it again... Sean Taylor is the free safety... when your secondary is one of the most porous in football, not looking at the lack of effectiveness of the free safety is just irresponsible IMO.

Arch is being asked to do what he doesn't do well... we're accentuating his shortcomings rather than utilizing his assets.

Not saying they're at the same level but, basically, AA and Taylor are the same player. They bring the same skill set to football -- good in run support and will knock the snot out of you (sometimes at the cost of making a good tackle).

But a FS needs to be a significantly different type player than the SS.. Could that fact have been somehow overlooked in the "Ooh, pretty player. I want one!" department?

The more things change .....

DId you just compare Sean Taylor to Adam Archuleta? You have got to be kidding. To say that Taylor is only good in run support is just not accurate. Taylor seems to be out of place in the secondary so often because he is being asked to make up for the defficency of our secondary, which is huge. But in no way whatsoever, does the skill set of Sean Taylor and Archuleta even come close to each other.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:35 am

Taylor has covered Randy Moss step for step as a Viking and Raider he is incredible. :lol:

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:27 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Taylor has covered Randy Moss step for step as a Viking and Raider he is incredible.

But he also got burnt by Burress in single coverage a few times last week. Let's be honest, his play isn't as good this year as it has been. He's kind of lavartackling; huge hits, but he's missing tackles as well. His play has been more than a little disappointing this year.

And BH is absolutely right. AA is being exposed in coverage, but we all knew coming into the season that's not what he's good at. He's essentially a 4th linebacker.

And please, PLEASE put to rest that highest-paid safety stuff. He was at the time by pure contract terms, but Roy Williams has since signed a megacontract that dwarfed AAs. And I think you'll see Sean Taylor sign a bigger contract; since the salary cap rose so dramatically this year, comparing 2006 contracts to prior contracts is almost apples and oranges.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm

And BH is absolutely right. AA is being exposed in coverage, but we all knew coming into the season that's not what he's good at. He's essentially a 4th linebacker.

So what's your point?? Sean Taylor got burned by Burress. That's one game. In college he single handedly covered Larry Fitzgerald when Miami played Pitt. He has matched up twice against Moss and gotten the better of the matchup both times. AA gets beat every single week. AA isn't even in the same league as Taylor.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:09 pm

Speaking of a SS being used like a FS...

Didn't Joe Gibbs say at the AA press conference (when he was signed) that the Redskins didn't use FS or SS, just safties.

While that might work, and might be a bright idea... why would we pick Arch when this is not what he does best?

UK Skins Fan · Post by **UK Skins Fan** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:42 pm

When we signed AA, I was puzzled, considering that Clark seemed to give us everything we needed from the safety spot. When I thought about it, the only things that he seemed to add were more bulk when playing near the line of scrimmage and greater blitzing ability. I had visions of the guy playing almost exclusively as an extra linebacker, getting after the passer, and helping to shut down the run, whilst presumably having enough coverage skills to look after a running back or tight end.

So, why is he being asked to run around in the secondary covering people that he hasn't a hope of getting near? It baffles me. Perhaps things will change with Vincent being on board, but the only change that could come from that is simply to reduce AA's playing time.

Again, it baffles me. We have teams running all over us, when AA playing up to the line could surely help us out. At the same time, any lumbering pachyderm that can understand a post pattern could probably beat us deep, and we have AA back there to cover?

I am officially confused.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:07 pm

So, why is he being asked to run around in the secondary covering people that he hasn't a hope of getting near? It baffles me. Perhaps things will change with Vincent being on board, but the only change that could come from that is simply to reduce AA's playing time.

Because our corners can't cover. You can't leave any of them in single coverage.

Sir_Monk · Post by **Sir_Monk** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:18 pm

I might be wrong here, but I thought the point of picking up AA was to make sure the FS position was covered in case Sean Taylor had to serve time.

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:12 pm

Sir_Monk wrote:I might be wrong here, but I thought the point of picking up AA was to make sure the FS position was covered in case Sean Taylor had to serve time.

Great conspiracy theory, but there is no way anyone thinks AA could play a credible FS in the NFL.

FS has to cover. AA has never been able to, and still isn't now.

SkinzCanes wrote:So what's your point?? Sean Taylor got burned by Burress. That's one game. In college he single handedly covered Larry Fitzgerald when Miami played Pitt. He has matched up twice against Moss and gotten the better of the matchup both times. AA gets beat every single week. AA isn't even in the same league as Taylor.

AA isn't a FS and isn't supposed to be in coverage. You might not remember David Fulcher, but as a SS he was a multiple probowler. Couldn't cover worth a damn, but he wasn't put in the position to do so.

Taylor is a hell of a player, but I think he's having a down season. Thanks, since you helped prove that when you pointed out previously he blanketed Larry Fitzgerald and Randy Moss twice, but this year he's being beaten by Plaxico Burress.

reggiebrooks4life · Post by **reggiebrooks4life** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:01 am

with a healthy springs it should free Archuleta and ST up since springs can actually play man to man defense unlike Rumph

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:02 am

Can you imagine if we had kept Adam Archuleta and re-signed Clark? =P~

We had enough cap space to do it (though I suppose that we had to make those decisions before the new CBA--which gave us the room--was agreed upon), and with the way that Gregg Williams plays his players it wouldn't have to have been a "demotion" for Clark.

Ah well. . .alternate universes. . .

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:15 am

Irn-Bru wrote:Can you imagine if we had kept Adam Archuleta and re-signed Clark?

We had enough cap space to do it (though I suppose that we had to make those decisions before the new CBA--which gave us the room--was agreed upon), and with the way that Gregg Williams plays his players it wouldn't have to have been a "demotion" for Clark.

Ah well. . .alternate universes. . .

And in that alternate universe, can Antonio Pierce still play MLB for the skins? :wink:

sch1977 · Post by **sch1977** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:17 am

Hopefully during the bye week, Vincent will get some reps with the 1st teamers.

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:08 pm

BossHog wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:But if we knew AA couldn't cover when he got here why make him the leagues highest paid safety? If he only brings one dimension to this team does that warrant such a high price tag?

Cleary this issue wouldn't be so big if AA was out for the season?

Pierson is the better safety and is being paid a lot less and when he asks for a bigger contract the Skins will baulk and send him away disgruntled also.

Vincent having been here 4 weeks has a better grasp of the secondary.

Why does Vincent have a better grasp of the secondary? Couldn't it just be that he's a better player? He also came from Buffalo where they use a very similar defense anyway.

I don't care if the media TELL you that Archuletta is the highest paid safety in the league... he isn't... he's not even the highest paid safety on our team right now. If you prefer to go with what the media tell you, that's your prerogative; but they don't understand the salary cap at all and aren't usually qualified to comment on it... but if you want to take their word, go right ahead. They can't figure out that only guaranteed money means anything... and they're not going to actually figure out what a player will ACTUALLY see as opposed to what they could POSSIBLY see.

AA isn't playing to what he's paid for sure... but he isn't being paid like the media pundits would have you believe. If I had the time, I'd break down a few safety's contracts for you to see what I'm talking about. if I can find some time this week, I'll try and put something together to dispel this myth. AA isn't earning his paycheque right now, but that paycheque ISN'T the biggest safety ticket in the league.

I just don't understand why it is that the strong safety is being pounded for not covering the deep ball when the free safety is nowhere to be found.

Like i said... I'm not defending Archuletta's ability to cover a pass... I'm asking why he's being asked to continually do what he isn't good at? That isn't his fault. He's being put in a position to fail and nothing else... he was brought here to be a blitzing strong safety that had some presence in the box... we have him sitting back in coverage. We cheat Sean Taylor to the line more than AA and has ST ever actually got to a quarterback?

He hasn't been getting to any receivers lately either.

I think the world of Sean Taylor too, he's just not playing very well right now... like a lot of players. He's still making some big hits, but he isn't making them on receivers.

If you want to talk about how much AA sucks in coverage, that's fine with me... he does, but I just don't understand how the FREE safety gets a pass on the conversation... and right now, he can't cover anyone either. And I don't understand how you can not assess blame to the defensive co-ordinator that continues to put the guy in a position that an armchair QB knows not to put him.

Please explain how he is not the highest paid safety on our team? I think people are poungind him because its no excuse to not cover underneath routes when you play safety....he is not a linebacker, he's still a safety and even the strongest of the strong will inevitably have to cover slot receivers, tight ends, and running backs...I just don't think its an excuse for a guy who is a "high profile" safety in this league who (prefers to hone his skills in some distant location away from the team and coaches) to now say that he can't cover because he's a run supporter.

I respectfully disagree about Sean as well...we all know his agressiveness is a liability when he guesses wrong and is caught out of position, however, a good amount of his hits have been on receivers...in fact some of his biggest hits were on Terrell Owens, Reggie Williams...the fact that we have such an agressive Free Safety actually underscores the importance of having another safety who can actually cover in space.

I'm not gonna lay it all on Archuletta, I think the blame lies with Cerrato and whoever else chose him, because the whole league knew that he was a coverage liability. But seriously, if you know you have to use your Strong safety only in the box...you are severely limiting what you can do on defense, especially when facing teams that run spread offenses...what is williams to do? Either put him on the sideline and bring in another set of DB's? Or ask him to do what he's paid to do and that's cover when its time to cover.

Either way, its silly to let a guy go who can do both things pretty well, in favor for a more expensive guy who is very good at only one thing.

Taylor gets a pass because he is still making plays, and he has shown us that he can cover..last season I remember him matching up with receivers like Randy Moss and T.O. and holding his own....I don't think he's gotten bad all of a sudden...this begs the question that perhaps he looks like he's getting beaten because he's trying to cover more ground to make up for Archuletta's ineptitude.

And if Vincent, who signed for the vet minimum, is a better player than Archuletta, then that speaks volumes for the poor decision to even pursue Archuletta.