Belichick - Genius or Egomaniac?

Arionquinn · Post by **Arionquinn** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:45 pm

I pose this question in light of the Deion Branch trade. Seeing Brady throw for 4,000 yards last year, I got him on my fantasy team. While he threw 2 TDs yesterday, he only had like 30 yards completed to his receivers. Yes, his TEs are beasts, and Maroney is an excellent draft pick, but an offense can't succeed all that well without somewhat established receivers.

I respect Brady. I also respect Belichick and his accomplishments. But has Belichick gone over the line and turned this Branch situation into the ultimate "I'm Keith Hernandez" situation?

You tell me.

theoneandonly#9 · Post by **theoneandonly#9** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:42 am

Seeing how B.B. is a disciple of Parcells I would say he is both a genius and an egomaniac. He has to figure that his system works and that the parts are interchangable. I don't know where they would be without T. Brady

Mursilis · Post by **Mursilis** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:52 am

We'll have to wait and see how they do this year. The Pats have let so many go and not suffered for it (Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, etc.) that I'm not going to say anything yet, but at some point it has to catch up with them. That said, they still have Brady, and a good QB makes his WRs look a lot better. On the other hand, a star WR is still nothing without a good QB. Look at Moss in Oakland - they still stink.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:55 pm

Living up here, I love to remind these guys about the Belichick that was the Browns HC and how well he did with that franchise. They are still trying to recover!

With the current failure of the Red Sox the only thing better would be to see the patsies trailing the Dolphins and the Jets in the AFC East.

The New England fans are so conditioned to losing that even when they have decent team they can't handle it. I think Bill will be gone soon - would not surprise me at all to see him at USNA which is where his father was.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:24 pm

Remember when Coach Joe Gibbs just let his two starting WR's go? He traded Coles for .50 cents on the dollar (or so everyone thought at the time) and just let Rod Gardner go, despite the fact he had 5 TD's that season?

He drafted Cool

ey to catch some balls, and put an undersized Santana Moss (greatly helped by the new rules in the opinions of many) across from nobodies like David Patten and James Thrash...

Then the Redskins won 10 games.

Belichick is not being an ego-maniac for getting rid of a petulant player who wants more than he is worth.

On the Patriots, no player is above the team, and that's the way it should be.

I see a lot of Patriots hating, because we all hate and are jealous of teams that win until we appreciate them years from now... but I respect the Patriots greatly for what they've done.

They were a decent team under Parcells, made the superbowl once... when he split they got Pete Carroll who was a decent enough coach, but never got them over the top...

Belichick and his staff took a mediocre team with no running game, turned Tom Brady from a skinny 6th rounder to a top flight NFL QB, turned Antowain Smith into an 1,100 yard rusher with 12 TD's, and turned the defense into an elite unit, all within like a year of being in charge.

That's the kind of turnaround team's dream of.

The Patriots were a laughingstock, now they are an elite team. Don't hate on them because of that, they paid their dues.

Arionquinn · Post by **Arionquinn** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:44 pm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Pats-hater and I'm all for the "no player is above the team" thing. My question was merely posed to get opinions on how much the team can shed before it loses its core.

By getting rid of Coles and Gardner, we didn't lose our core. Branch was a possession receiver that showed up at the right time (namely Super Bowl MVP), and it meant sure hands for Brady to throw to.

I respect Belichick and his system greatly. I'm wondering when their juice is going to stop flowing. McGinest, Branch, Givens... those are pretty big names to let go all at once.

hailskins666 · Post by **hailskins666** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:36 pm

Arionquinn wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Pats-hater and I'm all for the "no player is above the team" thing. My question was merely posed to get opinions on how much the team can shed before it loses its core.

By getting rid of Coles and Gardner, we didn't lose our core. Branch was a possession receiver that showed up at the right time (namely Super Bowl MVP), and it meant sure hands for Brady to throw to.

I respect Belichick and his system greatly. I'm wondering when their juice is going to stop flowing. McGinest, Branch, Givens... those are pretty big names to let go all at once.

you know, as much as i hate to say it..... as long as they have brady behind center.... :puke:

i just threw up in my mouth... i can't finish the sentence but, you can figure it out.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:35 am

hailskins666 wrote:
Arionquinn wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Pats-hater and I'm all for the "no player is above the team" thing. My question was merely posed to get opinions on how much the team can shed before it loses its core.

By getting rid of Coles and Gardner, we didn't lose our core. Branch was a possession receiver that showed up at the right time (namely Super Bowl MVP), and it meant sure hands for Brady to throw to.

I respect Belichick and his system greatly. I'm wondering when their juice is going to stop flowing. McGinest, Branch, Givens... those are pretty big names to let go all at once.
you know, as much as i hate to say it..... as long as they have brady behind center.... i just threw up in my mouth... i can't finish the sentence but, you can figure it out.

Why do you dislike Brady so much anyway? He seems like a decent enough guy to me. I could understand if he was cocky, or super hyped, or was in as many commercials as Peyton Manning (who I hate) but Brady just seems like a blue collar type QB who goes out and does his job without too much flair.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:44 am

Arionquinn wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Pats-hater and I'm all for the "no player is above the team" thing. My question was merely posed to get opinions on how much the team can shed before it loses its core.

By getting rid of Coles and Gardner, we didn't lose our core. Branch was a possession receiver that showed up at the right time (namely Super Bowl MVP), and it meant sure hands for Brady to throw to.

I respect Belichick and his system greatly. I'm wondering when their juice is going to stop flowing. McGinest, Branch, Givens... those are pretty big names to let go all at once.

You're right, Coles and Gardner weren't really part of the Redskins' core (though Coles was supposed to be) but I don't think Branch was either. He's a nice reciever, pretty fast, kind of small, has durability concerns... but he's not a core type player.

Remember the Redskins were famous for interchangeable parts? Didn't members of the hogs go through some transformations between Superbowls?

I think the Pats have done a good job of reloading on the fly, I mean they went from Smith who was serviceable, to Dillon and it looks like Maroney will be a decent pro too. They went from Branch, and Johnson and Givens and have Gabriel, and Caldwell along with Watson and Graham as passign targets. (Also, isn't Patrick Pass a decent pass catcher?)

Anyway, the point is, I don't feel like the Pats are letting players go because of ego related reasons, I think they just found themselves in a circumstance where signing so and so to a contract would have hampered their chances to field a more complete team overall.

They probably aren't as good as manipulating the salary cap as Washington has become, so they take a different approach to staying under it.

Fios · Post by **Fios** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:47 am

Skinsfan55 wrote:Remember when Coach Joe Gibbs just let his two starting WR's go? He traded Coles for .50 cents on the dollar (or so everyone thought at the time) and just let Rod Gardner go, despite the fact he had 5 TD's that season?

He drafted ey to catch some balls, and put an undersized Santana Moss (greatly helped by the new rules in the opinions of many) across from nobodies like David Patten and James Thrash...

Then the Redskins won 10 games.

1) Thanks for the history lesson, I'd forgotten all that
2) Did you actually type "despite the fact that he had 5 TDs" ... do you remember how utterly ineffective Gardner was?
3) Many people on these boards were happy with the Coles/Moss swap when it was made, I sure didn't see it as a .50 cents on the dollar trade
4) The rule changes helped all wideouts

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:26 pm

1.) I'm just saying... why is it "interchangeable parts" when Joe Gibbs does it, but Bill Belichick is an ego maniac when he does similar things?

2.) I realize I am in the minority, but I liked Rod Gardner, and I don't think he was as bad as people remember. Brunell and Ramsey were awful in 2004, some of Gardner's stuggles came from them I think. Yeah, he wasn't/isn't an elite WR by any stretch, but I thought he was a decent redzone target who could really thrive with a good QB under center.

The point is Gibbs just got rid of his two best recievers and replaced them, and Branch probably isn't as good as either Coles or Gardner was/is.

3.) Yeah, a lot of people were excited about the Moss swap, but I saw a lot of guarded optimism too. We traded a 16 game starter who was pro bowl quality and signed to a long contract for an injury prone guy who had started roughly half his games since drafted. Yeah, Moss had talent, and it was obvious he could be excellent if put in the right system, but that trade took guts to make.

4.) Yeah, the rule changes helped everyone, but I'm saying it especially helped small recievers. I'm not saying it was turning guys from coal to diamonds, but Steve Smith, Santana Moss and others went from 'good' to 'top 5' in one season.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:32 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:1.) I'm just saying... why is it "interchangeable parts" when Joe Gibbs does it, but Bill Belichick is an ego maniac when he does similar things?

You are always just saying and it was you that called it interchangable parts...

Skinsfan55 wrote:Remember the Redskins were famous for interchangeable parts? Didn't members of the hogs go through some transformations between Superbowls?

So why are you using your arguement against your own poimts?

Skinsfan55 wrote:2.) I realize I am in the minority, but I liked Rod Gardner, and I don't think he was as bad as people remember. Brunell and Ramsey were awful in 2004, some of Gardner's stuggles came from them I think. Yeah, he wasn't/isn't an elite WR by any stretch, but I thought he was a decent redzone target who could really thrive with a good QB under center.

The point is Gibbs just got rid of his two best recievers and replaced them, and Branch probably isn't as good as either Coles or Gardner was/is.

Gardner is still looking for work, and Cole is still crying about not getting the ball enough. If Gardner was anythink he'd be somewhere, if Ramsey was the problem maybe Coles may have mentioned that to mangini before they traded for him.

Skinsfan55 wrote:3.) Yeah, a lot of people were excited about the Moss swap, but I saw a lot of guarded optimism too. We traded a 16 game starter who was pro bowl quality and signed to a long contract for an injury prone guy who had started roughly half his games since drafted. Yeah, Moss had talent, and it was obvious he could be excellent if put in the right system, but that trade took guts to make.

So you and a disgruntled Jets fan who's usernames starts with a "S" consistutes a lot of people? OK

Skinsfan55 wrote:4.) Yeah, the rule changes helped everyone, but I'm saying it especially helped small recievers. I'm not saying it was turning guys from coal to diamonds, but Steve Smith, Santana Moss and others went from 'good' to 'top 5' in one season.

I'm pretty sure it didn't happen over night and the performance of each player had something to do with it

ChrisHanburger · Post by **ChrisHanburger** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:22 pm

SkinsJock wrote:Living up here, I love to remind these guys about the Belichick that was the Browns HC and how well he did with that franchise. They are still trying to recover!

With the current failure of the Red Sox the only thing better would be to see the patsies trailing the Dolphins and the Jets in the AFC East.

The New England fans are so conditioned to losing that even when they have decent team they can't handle it. I think Bill will be gone soon - would not surprise me at all to see him at USNA which is where his father was.

I live up here too and its not the Pats I dislike, its the fans. They are just so fair weather. There's some real fans, believe me, but there's a TON of new fans hanging on that bandwagon. Just like the new crowd of Sox fans. I can't wait for when they suck again so I can go to Gillete and buy tickets on game day like in the past. Then when the REdskins come into town I can see them at face value (and afford to take my kids) :lol:

I don't think Bellicheck is an egomaniac. I do think, though, that his lack of loyalty to his players and "its just business" attitude will eventually catch up with him (and Kraft, who I think is as much a part of it)