The only things holding the skins back...

[Deadskins]

Another way the comparison breaks down is that we are paying Brunell the Palmer money and Campbell the Kitna wages.

But that doesn't really matter. You don't play the guy who makes the most - you play the guy who plays the best.

I only compared Kitna/Palmer to Brunell/Campbell because Cinncy took the gamble of playing the hot young rookie over the tried-and-true, good-but-not-great veteran, and it paid off. They may've done it because of the money, but for whatever reason, they did it and found out the Palmer could play in this league.

My post was more in response to this:

Also I dont see how this comparison works at all. Palmer was the #1 overall pick in the draft and signed a contract worth WAY more than #25 pick Campbell.

[yupchagee]

Another way the comparison breaks down is that we are paying Brunell the Palmer money and Campbell the Kitna wages.

But that doesn't really matter. You don't play the guy who makes the most - you play the guy who plays the best.

I only compared Kitna/Palmer to Brunell/Campbell because Cinncy took the gamble of playing the hot young rookie over the tried-and-true, good-but-not-great veteran, and it paid off. They may've done it because of the money, but for whatever reason, they did it and found out the Palmer could play in this league.

To a large extent, I think it depends on the coaches expectations of the team as a whole going into the season. Last yr we started Ramsey because Gibbs (or anybody else for that matter) didn't think we were legitimate contenders. Might as well try the kid. This year we are, stay with the vet.

[Deadskins]

Last yr we started Ramsey because Gibbs (or anybody else for that matter) didn't think we were legitimate contenders.

I don't agree with that comment at all.

[Mursilis]

Last yr we started Ramsey because Gibbs (or anybody else for that matter) didn't think we were legitimate contenders.

I don't agree with that comment at all.

Not sure I do either. Why wasn't Ramsey started in '04 then? Did Gibbs think he could take a 5-11 team (with not a single player selected by him) and turn it around in one season?

[yupchagee]

Last yr we started Ramsey because Gibbs (or anybody else for that matter) didn't think we were legitimate contenders.

I don't agree with that comment at all.

Not sure I do either. Why wasn't Ramsey started in '04 then? Did Gibbs think he could take a 5-11 team (with not a single player selected by him) and turn it around in one season?

Good point. Now I'm really confused

[Mursilis]

Last yr we started Ramsey because Gibbs (or anybody else for that matter) didn't think we were legitimate contenders.

I don't agree with that comment at all.

Not sure I do either. Why wasn't Ramsey started in '04 then? Did Gibbs think he could take a 5-11 team (with not a single player selected by him) and turn it around in one season?

Good point. Now I'm really confused

Got to give you points for honesty!!

[John Manfreda]

I hate to be negative... but lets get back to reality....

1. Injures

This is true for every team, so if the Skins were to lost some key players they could be in trouble, but on a positive note they have some depth in key positions, especially with the Duckett trade, if Portis were to get hurt even worse, Saunders may still be able to handle it. Nevertheless, injuries is the first thing.

[b]2.The Quarterback Position

Sure, its great that the WR's are so great now, but, uh one problem? Who is going to throw them the ball? The Skins aren't great at the most position on the field (stop, dont debate, it is). Brunell hasnt looked good (even if it is [I]only[I] preseason), and he has never been lights out as a Skin, Campbell is still too young, and Todd Collins, well he might as well be a coach.


[b]3.Special Teams[b]

I got a name for you-Derrick Frost. Derrick Frost. Derrick Frost. IF this team were to make it to the superbowl, watch out for this guy to screw up BIG. The same goes for John Hall, he HAS been great in the past, but coming off injuries, how will he do? 3 of the last 5 superbowls (2 of them in the last 3 years) have been decided by 3 points.

Other then that, this team is superbowl material

I agree I know Gibbs won 3 rings with three diffrent Qb's but I think those 3 Qb's are better than Brunell is now, and still think we have to get Campell good this year and than next year compete for a superbowl. I am not sold on him, but Gibbs may know something that I don't, he did get three rings.

[JPM36]

Let's just say that we all hope Campbell does grow into a Pro Bowl QB someday but Brunell's experience and solid performance last season gives him the right to be the starter until further notice.

[Countertrey]

Last yr we started Ramsey because Gibbs (or anybody else for that matter) didn't think we were legitimate contenders.

I don't agree with that comment at all.

Not sure I do either. Why wasn't Ramsey started in '04 then? Did Gibbs think he could take a 5-11 team (with not a single player selected by him) and turn it around in one season?

Good point. Now I'm really confused

Here's what I think... (I'm sure that instills great confidence in a few of you):
Gibbs arrived on the scene, and, in reviewing game film realized that he had a problem. A talented young QB who was shell shocked from the brutal beatings he had taken at the hands of Spurrier's blocking (or lack of blocking) schemes, and had developed happy feet. As a result, he went looking for a winning vet, who could help tide things over until he could repair the damage done to young Ramsey.

Unfortunately, the damage was more severe than he thought, resulting in the ultimate need to draft another QB for the future. He still wanted Ramsey to have his shot... and did not like what he saw, resulting in reinserting Brunell.

This is no more than the musing of an old JG fan, but I bet it's not far from the truth.

[1niksder]

Let's just say that we all hope Campbell does grow into a Pro Bowl QB someday but Brunell's experience and solid performance last season gives him the right to be the starter until further notice.

You can say it all you want but they aren't listening. Why?

1. They all see what JC can be... so they pretend he is already there
2. They want to say the team got us to the post-season but then says Brunell lost because he's "old", "injured", or "just doesn't have it anymore"
3. They still think Spurrier DIDN'T screw Patrick up as much as he did.

The fact that Gibbs says big things about Campbell and then tempers them off falls on deaf hears with these guys. Brunell will always be at fault for the lost in the playoffs but he gets no credit for using his legs to get the team out of trouble that Ramsey wouldn't have been able to accomplish, and keeping drives/win-streaks/hope alive. They'll point to the fact that SOS employed no blocking scheme in defense of Ramsey but won't admit that Mark finish 2005 without blocker

[1niksder]

Here's what I think... (I'm sure that instills great confidence in a few of you):
Gibbs arrived on the scene, and, in reviewing game film realized that he had a problem. A talented young QB who was shell shocked from the brutal beatings he had taken at the hands of Spurrier's blocking (or lack of blocking) schemes, and had developed happy feet. As a result, he went looking for a winning vet, who could help tide things over until he could repair the damage done to young Ramsey.

Unfortunately, the damage was more severe than he thought, resulting in the ultimate need to draft another QB for the future. He still wanted Ramsey to have his shot... and did not like what he saw, resulting in reinserting Brunell.

This is no more than the musing of an old JG fan, but I bet it's not far from the truth.

[Countertrey]

Do great minds think alike, or what?

[yupchagee]

Do great minds think alike, or what?

Now I think I understand why he's done things the way he had. Thanks.

[Mursilis]

1. They all see what JC can be... so they pretend he is already there
2. They want to say the team got us to the post-season but then says Brunell lost because he's "old", "injured", or "just doesn't have it anymore"

1. JC and Brunell have the exact same QB rating in preseason, and that's with JC throwing to the soon-to-be cut WRs and getting protection from the 2nd and 3rd string line. Prove he's not already at Brunell's level now, and wouldn't be even further along if he practiced with the first team at camp.

2. Find where I've ever blamed the Seattle loss on Brunell. I've already said his numbers in the Seattle game were actually better than the TB game. I've never blamed the Seattle loss on him.

[JPM36]

Mursilis- You can't possibly believe that JC and Brunell having the same QB ratng in 2 preseason games means that they are on the same level? Come on man. Be reasonable.

There is nothing I would love more than for Jason Campbell to develop into a star QB in the NFL over the next 10 years. All I'm saying is that Brunell earned the right to be our UNQUESTIONED starter with his solid play and the team's overall results in 2005.

[crazyhorse1]

I don't understand the Brunell detractors. I really don't.

I admit that I used to be a HUGE anti-Brunell guy but last season he threw for 3,000 yards and we went 10-6, 5-1 vs. NFC East, and won a road playoff game.

What more does the guy have to do to convince you people that he's good enough to be our QB?

Brunnel was worn out last season with about a third of the season left to go. His great stats were accumulated early and his drop off was considerable. Even before he was hurt, we had to win by working Portis to death.
Also, Brunell has lost significant time to injury in almost every season he's played, including when he was young. His lasting the season as an uninjured and effective QB is extremely unlikely.
No one doubts his ability.

[yupchagee]

1. They all see what JC can be... so they pretend he is already there
2. They want to say the team got us to the post-season but then says Brunell lost because he's "old", "injured", or "just doesn't have it anymore"

1. JC and Brunell have the exact same QB rating in preseason, and that's with JC throwing to the soon-to-be cut WRs and getting protection from the 2nd and 3rd string line. Prove he's not already at Brunell's level now, and wouldn't be even further along if he practiced with the first team at camp.

2. Find where I've ever blamed the Seattle loss on Brunell. I've already said his numbers in the Seattle game were actually better than the TB game. I've never blamed the Seattle loss on him.

I don't follow this logic. Are you saying that because Campbell's QB rating is the same as Brunell's in spite of throwing to inferior receivers & behind an inferior line, proove he's not ready?

[Mursilis]

1. They all see what JC can be... so they pretend he is already there
2. They want to say the team got us to the post-season but then says Brunell lost because he's "old", "injured", or "just doesn't have it anymore"

1. JC and Brunell have the exact same QB rating in preseason, and that's with JC throwing to the soon-to-be cut WRs and getting protection from the 2nd and 3rd string line. Prove he's not already at Brunell's level now, and wouldn't be even further along if he practiced with the first team at camp.

2. Find where I've ever blamed the Seattle loss on Brunell. I've already said his numbers in the Seattle game were actually better than the TB game. I've never blamed the Seattle loss on him.

I don't follow this logic. Are you saying that because Campbell's QB rating is the same as Brunell's in spite of throwing to inferior receivers & behind an inferior line, proove he's not ready?

1niksder said Campbell wasn't "there", wherever that is - I just want to know on what he's based that conclusion. The only evidence we have is the two preseason games so far, and he's been no worse than Brunell.

[crazyhorse1]

I don't understand the Brunell detractors. I really don't.

It's not that Brunell is a bad quarterback at this point in his career - it's just that he's not great either. Everyone raves about his year last year, but how is he much different than, say, Drew Bledsoe? Brunell had almost 600 less yards overall, less yards per attempt, and a lower completion percentage. Both QBs had 23 TDs, but Brunell managed to have 7 less picks, which is why his QB rating was 2 points higher. Still, Bledsoe and Brunell were nearly identical overall, and yet people here say Brunell is great and Bledsoe is awful. That's just homerism talking.

The other frustrating thing about this situation is that we've got Campbell just sitting there. It's like having a new sports car in the garage, and everyone wants to drive the minivan! Brunell's getting on in years and hasn't finished a full season in 4 of the last 5 years. Thus, the odds say he won't finish this one either. What's the better situation - Campbell comes in now and gets in a groove, or he comes in two weeks from the playoffs? Sure, people will say JC's too new, needs time to learn, he'll struggle in his first year, doom our season, etc., but history says otherwise. Heck, Brunell in his first year as a starter in Jax wasn't much worse than Brunell now (85 v. 82 QB rating). Brady was better in his FIRST year as a starter, so was Big Ben, so was Marc Bulger, so was Culpepper, so was Farve, so were a lot of QBs. The simple fact is, where there's a strong supporting cast (as there is here), a young QB can flourish right away, if he's got talent. I believe JC has that talent. He played at Auburn - heck, that's practically a pro program, or as close as you'll find at the college level. Daunte Culpeper became a full time starter his second year, after throwing no passes in regular season games his rookie year (just like JC). That second year, he posted just under 4000 yards and 33 TDs, for a 98 QB rating. That's better than any year Brunell ever had. Same with Big Ben. If given the chance, I predict the same for JC.

Excellent post!

[Mursilis]

Mursilis- You can't possibly believe that JC and Brunell having the same QB ratng in 2 preseason games means that they are on the same level? Come on man. Be reasonable.

There is nothing I would love more than for Jason Campbell to develop into a star QB in the NFL over the next 10 years. All I'm saying is that Brunell earned the right to be our UNQUESTIONED starter with his solid play and the team's overall results in 2005.

No, I don't really think 2 preseason games count for much - I'm not that crazy. Unfortunately, that's all we've got on JC though, at least at the pro level.

As far as Brunell being the UNQUESTIONED starter, he is, at least to Gibbs, and that's the only vote that matters. This internet chatter means nothing.

[crazyhorse1]

Not unless Brunell goes out with an injury

YEa really, i mean Gibbs was so anti-Ramsey, theres no way he gives JC the job, Gibbs is like this, "Go with a veteran 90 percent of the time all the time"

Veteran QB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Young QB

thats how he is.

Gibbs anti Ramsey? Who started at QB at the beginning of last season?
Assuming he was "anti Ramsey, what does that have to do with Campbell this year?

The whole world knows Gibbs had no apparent cause for pulling Ramsey last year when he did. To say Gibbs gave him a chance is a joke.

[crazyhorse1]

Not unless Brunell goes out with an injury

YEa really, i mean Gibbs was so anti-Ramsey, theres no way he gives JC the job, Gibbs is like this, "Go with a veteran 90 percent of the time all the time"

Veteran QB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Young QB

thats how he is.

Gibbs anti Ramsey? Who started at QB at the beginning of last season?
Assuming he was "anti Ramsey, what does that have to do with Campbell this year?

Check the records. After Ramsey left, Brunell did nothing, not nearly as much in over 2 quarters than Ramsey did in a little over one. Brunel did nothing to win the job--nothing.

Gibbs isn't anti-Ramsey, he's anti-young QB. Ramsey got about 1.5 quarters as the starter in '05 before he was benched, whereas Brunell got, what, 9-10 games before he got the hook in '04? Huge difference.

Ramsey wasn't benched, he was injured. Brunell did so well that Gibbs stayed with him.

[SkinsJock]

...I agree I know Gibbs won 3 rings with three diffrent Qb's but I think those 3 Qb's are better than Brunell is now, and still think we have to get Campell good this year and than next year compete for a superbowl. I am not sold on him, but Gibbs may know something that I don't, he did get three rings.

Trust me on this - Gibbs does know a lot of things you don't!



Gibbs success with QBs is not so much on who the QBs were or how good (or inadequate) they may have been as much as the other players and coaches who were part of those teams.
Sure, Gibbs likes the experienced QB over the rookie but he also recognizes who and what will make for a successful team and if that is provided by Cambell then it will not surprise me at all to see Campbell as our QB in the very near future.
Brunell will get an opportunity to lead but unless Cambell shows he is not ready when Saunders (and Gibbs) thinks it is time for a change at QB then we are going to see Cambell at QB and sooner than most think.




I must say that I am hoping that Brunell has a fantastic year behind an awesome line, with some great passing yards and with a great group of RBs demolishing the rushing yardage books!!

2 weeks to go!

[crazyhorse1]

Campbell will start for us this year bet on it.

I'd be a whole lot happier if we still had Patrick. Just don't trust Brunell as far as injuries go, and to keep his zip all season. Sorry, Campbell doesn't look ready yet. Maybe he'll improve at a faster rate if Pattten's benched when Campbell's out there. Campbell needs confidence. I would play him a lot in the next two games-- maybe three quarters each game, and get him used to throwing to our better wide receives.

Gibbs won't do that, of course-- because of chance of injury to wr's and Campbell, but mostly because he thinks Brunell's the guy. He's probably not. Sorry, again.

When will you realize that Ramsey can't cut it in this league? He couldn't get it done here, and he has looked horrible in preseason with the Jets! He can't even beat out Noodle arm for the starting job in NY. What makes you think he is better than Brunell?

In the game I saw Ramsey completed seven or eight passes and had an on- target pass knocked down, while only missing twice, one on a throw-a-way. I also noted that he did so against the Skins first team D, which made the Jets offensive line look like a sieve.
To say that even Michael Vick could have escaped those 2 sacks is ridiculous.

[JPM36]

Mursilis- You can't possibly believe that JC and Brunell having the same QB ratng in 2 preseason games means that they are on the same level? Come on man. Be reasonable.

There is nothing I would love more than for Jason Campbell to develop into a star QB in the NFL over the next 10 years. All I'm saying is that Brunell earned the right to be our UNQUESTIONED starter with his solid play and the team's overall results in 2005.

No, I don't really think 2 preseason games count for much - I'm not that crazy. Unfortunately, that's all we've got on JC though, at least at the pro level.

As far as Brunell being the UNQUESTIONED starter, he is, at least to Gibbs, and that's the only vote that matters. This internet chatter means nothing.

I'm with you there. I have all the faith in the world in Joe Gibbs. Let's just sit back and enjoy the ride.