Is this taking it too far in the name of "amnesty"

[1niksder]

No one is saying they need to speak english when they get here.

Really?

immigrants should learn english though.. first and formost as a step to becoming citizens

Learning english would be better than rewriting the National anthem as a way of showing you want to belong.

So where does it say the have to speak english before they get here?

So you would rather have international terrorists chant DEATH TO AMERICA! than friends who want to become citizens and even FIGHT on your side not to sing and embrace your country in the best they think they can?

OK

The terrorists already chant DEATH TO AMERICA! and they are taking the illegal routes into the US that your the illegal aliens take. But I'm talking about terrorist here so stick to the topic

I've got a problem with the companies that playing illegals and if the workers entered the counrty legally, they would have work visas and be protected just like any other worker.
By them not paying taxes on the wages that the earn we as law abiding taxpayers are shouldering more of the burden when their kids are going to public schools

Precisely. What is stopping you from granting amnesty to correct the situation then? This is THE POINT. It is about legalizing an illegal situation. It is about FIXING this problem.

What about those that have come here legally and don't have citizenship. What do you propose we do with them. They've been on waiting list, paying application fees. They even walked right up to a custom agent and said the wanted to enter America? How do you decide who gets amensty and who doesn't. How do you deal with those that will enter the counrty illegally as soon as a amensty is announced?

Here is the ignorant part... (politicians turned the illegal alien issue into a imagration issue and we fell)
In the Gangs of New York they came to this Country legally, stood in long lines to seek the dreams that brought them here.

Legally? They just CAME whether it was the Potato famine or anything else, they just CAME. The problem now is that the rules to immigrate are so complex, so discriminatory, so bureaucratic, and so obsolete that people have voted with their feet (the ones coming) and their pockets (the ones benefiting from their arrival).

Reality has de facto shown the inoperative and obsolete character of your immigration laws. What pains me is the lack of an attempt by several other posters to see the humanitarian dimension of this issue, FROM BOTH SIDES of the argument in a fair and impartial manner.

The law maybe old but it's the law. The bottom line is they are here illegally which means they have no rights including one to be here. Now that they are here the have to be dealt with. Sending them back isn't a option and signing the Star Spangaled Banner in spanish isn't one either.

[AZHog]

This national anthem business is just ridiculous. I am also a first generation American and maintain a close tie with my spanish speaking family. However, they all came here legally and, while bringing the Spanish culture with them, have also worked hard to become Americans.

It's not bigotry or hate to want immigrants to come in with a legal status. That's called following the law. So many people are up in arms with our legislation -- how about checking around the world? Nations like Japan, China, Spain, etc. have some of the toughest immigration laws in the world...don't here their immigrants clamoring because they had to wait a turn.

[Redskin in Canada]

Hipocrisy? Please elaborate.

OK then:

hypocrisy (well spelled in English )
hypocrisie (French)
hipocrisia(Portuguese)
okrisie (German)
ipocrisia (Italian)
schijnheiligheid (Dutch)
υποκρισία (Greek)
лицемерность (Russian)
위선 (Korean)
偽善 (Japanese)

You should ask your parents the -meaning- of it in Spansih.

[AZHog]

OK, so I just read through the thread and am totally disgusted. Redskin in Canada: Your posts reflect an ignorance one can only have from not being part of a solution, only prolonging a problem. Immigration is necessary and healthy for every culture. However, laws exist to protect all citizens...notice that word is citizens. Illegal immigrants don't pay local/state/federal taxes. OK, so yes, they pay sales tax like everyone else here. But so do visitors from other nations...does that imply they are really paying what it takes to keep this country running? No, it certainly doesn't. Additionally, legallizing the millions of illegal immigrants does little good in the long term. What happens with the next wave of illegal immigrants -- will they demand, and receive, the same treatment? What good are laws then? This logic can then be extended to other laws. Maybe someone could say, "Hey, millions of Americans smoke pot -- lets plan marches and rallies, stop working, and encourage kids to leave schools so that we can get this some attention!" It's ludicrous.

Encouraging folks to follow the law isn't racist, it's our duty as citizens.

[Redskin in Canada]

The terrorists already chant DEATH TO AMERICA! and they are taking the illegal routes into the US that your the illegal aliens ]take.

Not true. Interestingly, the best documented example of a terrorist attempting to come across the border witha bomb was discovered in a routine check on the West coast between the USA and ... Canada, not Mexico

What about those that have come here legally and don't have citizenship. What do you propose we do with them.

It is a false proposition to put some of these -against- others. Those that are here legally should be approved quicker, that's all.

The law maybe old but it's the law. The bottom line is they are here illegally which means they have no rights including one to be here.

I am sure Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King and the women's movement which gained the right to vote saw it that way. That is why the laws did not change vis-a-vis freedom to slaves, civil rights and women's right to vote.

This is about changing laws to make it correctly. This is about about changing laws to make it fair. This is about changing laws to make it better for the USA.

[Redskin in Canada]

Encouraging folks to follow the law isn't racist, it's our duty as citizens.

When the laws do not work, and it is evident that in this case they do not, they serve nobody.

When a law is obsolete, when a process is so bureaucratic, when the process is so discriminatory, both peoples inside and out will ignore it. This is not about enforcement. Prohibition was supposed to have taught us something about the use of alcohol.

It was an obsolete law. Yes, it was the law. It was an attempt to protect citizens. Bad laws are repealed.

[NikiH]

How the heck is this discriminatory? We require people from EVERY country to follow the same immigration laws. It would be discrimintory to allow these people special rights because they come from Mexico.

The thing that floors me RIC is that while you are entitled your opinion you do not live or vote in this country. So this policy while you find it obsolete, discrimintory, what have you, it's not yours to criticize.

[Redskin in Canada]

How the heck is this discriminatory? We require people from EVERY country to follow the same immigration laws. It would be discrimintory to allow these people special rights because they come from Mexico.

It is not about Mexico. It is about ALL immigrants.

The thing that floors me RIC is that while you are entitled your opinion you do not live or vote in this country. So this policy while you find it obsolete, discrimintory, what have you, it's not yours to criticize.

I am expressing -my- opinion but I should not because it is in disagreement with the views of some of you? Interesting. I get it now!

Niki, I am in favour of the defense of human rights of ALL immigrants in ALL countries. The case in point is the USA but it is not limited to the USA.

There are A LOT discriminatory or obsolete immigration laws around the world. Their existence and application do not make them right.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Hipocrisy? Please elaborate.

OK then:

hypocrisy (well spelled in English )
hypocrisie (French)
hipocrisia(Portuguese)
okrisie (German)
ipocrisia (Italian)
schijnheiligheid (Dutch)
υποκρισία (Greek)
лицемерность (Russian)
위선 (Korean)
偽善 (Japanese)

You should ask your parents the -meaning- of it in Spansih.

I hope you feel a lot better bringing my parents (one of which is deceased -- lotta class, thanks for bringing it up) into a conversation that doesn't have a THING to do with them or their arrival in this country (as stated earlier, they arrived here in the U.S. legally).

Unless of course, bigotry led you to assume my parents arrived here illegally.

By the way, what's this "Spansih" you talk about? Is that one of those dialects you picked up on your many travels?

[NikiH]

I did not say because you disagree with me you shouldn't be heard. It seems to me that you are passionately fighting for a cause here and it's a cause that does not outrightly involve you.

You have the right to hold whatever opinion you would like but until you come here and deal first hand with illegal immigrants the way that some of us have to. I deal with ILLEGAL immigrants on a daily basis and it makes me mad that they come through our court systems and they use up our resources and they do not pay property tax, income tax, and yes while they do pay sales tax that is not the same. Income tax is what most of us see a huge majority of our income going to and I have a right to feel slighted that they demand things even after using up our tax dollars.

[Redskin in Canada]

I did not say because you disagree with me you shouldn't be heard.

I think you did but we will agree to disagree on this one too.

It seems to me that you are passionately fighting for a cause here and it's a cause that does not outrightly involve you.

Oh, but then you are wrong. ALL these issues are GLOBAL. Many issues have implications well beyond the borders of one's country. I am not only talking about the universal aspects of human rights alone. I am talking about the legislative EXAMPLE that can be set on this issue in a way that can have apositive impact in many other countries with even more obsolete legislations.

I deal with ILLEGAL immigrants on a daily basis and it makes me mad that they come through our court systems and they use up our resources and they do not pay property tax, income tax, and yes while they do pay sales tax that is not the same. Income tax is what most of us see a huge majority of our income going to and I have a right to feel slighted that they demand things even after using up our tax dollars.

Believe or not, they do want to be -legal- and pay these taxes. That is the point. It is to everybody's advantage to make them legal.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

This national anthem business is just ridiculous. I am also a first generation American and maintain a close tie with my spanish speaking family. However, they all came here legally and, while bringing the Spanish culture with them, have also worked hard to become Americans.

It's not bigotry or hate to want immigrants to come in with a legal status. That's called following the law. So many people are up in arms with our legislation -- how about checking around the world? Nations like Japan, China, Spain, etc. have some of the toughest immigration laws in the world...don't here their immigrants clamoring because they had to wait a turn.

:celebrate:

Thanks for posting, AZHog. I feel the same way, though I did not state it as eloquently as you did.

[AZHog]

Reedemed, your posts were fine. Problem is people wanting to place a racist or stereotype claim which does nothing but inflame issues with little bearing left in our country.

I really liked what Niki said...these laws don't just apply to latinos, they apply to everyone coming in. In fact, on of the largest immigrant populations are Sudanese. Talk about some people going through rough times!! One nice man that I met told me about the genocide and hate spreading from Islamic radicals throughout his region. His sister was tortured and killed before his eyes for professing to be a Chrisitian. Funny though, never once heard him complain about the visa/paperwork process -- he was quite happy even though it took him nearly 2 years to come here.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Oh, but then you are wrong. ALL these issues are GLOBAL. Many issues have implications well beyond the borders of one's country. I am not only talking about the universal aspects of human rights alone. I am talking about the legislative EXAMPLE that can be set on this issue in a way that can have apositive impact in many other countries with even more obsolete legislations.

Then how about we allow all of our ILLEGAL immigrants to Canadá, this country can learn how it's done. After all, the U.S. is still a young country, and it has SO MUCH to learn about being a true global power. You oughta know some people who can make this happen, eh?

[Redskin in Canada]

I hope you feel a lot better bringing my parents (one of which is deceased -- lotta class, thanks for bringing it up) into a conversation that doesn't have a THING to do with them or their arrival in this country (as stated earlier, they arrived here in the U.S. legally).

I would not have brought them up if you had not done so in the first place.

Unless of course, bigotry led you to assume my parents arrived here illegally. My 2 cents

The thread is there to be seen.

By the way, what's this "Spansih" you talk about? Is that one of those dialects you picked up on your many travels?

Grow up and get an education in more than one language. You do not have to turn against your own people and the family cultural heritage to be a good American citizen.

[Redskin in Canada]

Funny though, never once heard him complain about the visa/paperwork process -- he was quite happy even though it took him nearly 2 years to come here.

Did he tell you about the many others that did not make it to the USA?

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

I hope you feel a lot better bringing my parents (one of which is deceased -- lotta class, thanks for bringing it up) into a conversation that doesn't have a THING to do with them or their arrival in this country (as stated earlier, they arrived here in the U.S. legally).

I would not have brought them up if you had not done so in the first place.

Good point. Perhaps I would have felt better about it if you were celebrating their accomplishments and hard work, rather than if you weren't trying to somehow USE THEM to attempt to belittle me. Just a thought.

Unless of course, bigotry led you to assume my parents arrived here illegally. My 2 cents

The thread is there to be seen.

I think I'm missing something here... I'll check and see where in this thread I wrote that my family arrived here illegally.

By the way, what's this "Spansih" you talk about? Is that one of those dialects you picked up on your many travels?

Grow up and get an education in more than one language. You do not have to turn against your own people and the family cultural heritage to be a good American citizen.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. As soon as I can, I will enroll in both Swahili and Chinese courses to better understand my cultural heritage and "turn back" to my heritage. Oh, RiC, what would I ever do without you??

[Redskin in Canada]

Perhaps with the exception of 1nik, nothing that I have seen here resembles even a modest attempt to address this issue from a balanced perspective.

Thanks all for your views. It has been a truly educational experience.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Perhaps with the exception of 1nik, nothing that I have seen here resembles even a modest attempt to address this issue from a balanced perspective.

Thanks all for your views. It has been a truly educational experience.

Way to dump all over the other valid points that were made, strictly because you disagree with them.

[Irn-Bru]

What a mess our country's laws often make.

[Redskin in Canada]

What a mess our country's laws often make.

FFA,

This continent of ours will have some decisions to make in the future. Different languages, economic status, and land boundaries did not prevent the European Union from creating a seamless society pursuing the common good of their citizens. Former war enemies became partners under that vision. The European Union is not perfect but it is a BIG improvement over what we have in North America where each country is creating further distance from its neighbours.

Each European Union country has its own laws and identity. Nothing was lost in terms of identity and their collective economies improved.

But this vision scares many people in this continent and I appreciate that. It will take a few years before leaders with this vision come along on this side of the Atlantic.

I am a citizen of the world. A few idealists and influential writers used to share this concept in the past. It is just not in fashion these days though.

RiC

[AZHog]

Different languages, economic status, and land boundaries did not prevent the European Union from creating a seamless society pursuing the common good of their citizens. Former war enemies became partners under that vision. The European Union is not perfect but it is a BIG improvement over what we have in North America where each country is creating further distance from its neighbours.

The EU is a terrible role model for what you're referring to. While the nations are supposedly "united", it was done to consolidate wealth and create a currency that can compete with the US and Asia. Thinking that it was done for humanitarian reasons only shows two things: You've never lived in Europe and are totally naive.

[Irn-Bru]

The European Union is not perfect but it is a BIG improvement over what we have in North America where each country is creating further distance from its neighbours.

You will find no bigger fan of peace, harmony, and social cooperation than me. Yet, I don't think the EU is as ideal as you're making it out to be (even with your qualification). A bigger central planning authority is only going to lead to trouble. With respect to foreign policy, I have much greater respect for Switzerland than I do any other European country.

(I also am critical of the EU [and most of the individual countries composing it] on empirical grounds. All I need to do is look at the size of the welfare state, the unemployment rates, and the quality of life, etc.)

But this vision scares many people in this continent and I appreciate that. It will take a few years before leaders with this vision come along on this side of the Atlantic.

You may be right. I can't say that such an event would be in anyone's best interests, though.

I am a citizen of the world.

I know that you're saying this to be noble, but suppose I say that to the United States tax collectors the next time they come 'round. . .

[NikiH]

RIC this is OUR issue. The issue at hand is not how the world handles immigration. I did think that you were an educated person who was capable of intelligent conversation but the more this goes on the more you show that you feel the need to be right and to belittle people because they do not have the education you do or perhaps the world experience you do.

We get it, you're an international traveler, you're a better educated person. That does NOT give you the right to step into a matter that does not concern you and call all of those of us that believe illegal immigrants should carry their weight wrong.

I live here. I see people everyday that try to get around the system. These illegal aliens do NOT want to pay taxes, they want to keep things exactly the way they are. They want to get by without being noticed. I will give you several examples of this behavior if you would like. I DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE FACE TO FACE ON A DAILY BASIS! If you'd like to pass judgement on me for disagreeing with your educated opinion you go right ahead. I have work to do, a child to raise, and an education to acquire. Meanwhile saying you don't have the right to look down your nose at those of us who do not bow to your superior intellect does not mean you are not allowed an opinion it does however mean that you do not have the right to pass judgement on our society, that you are not part of. We want the 33% of our paychecks that go to taxes to be used to better our own, not illegal aliens that could give a crap about us, obviously.

[Redskin in Canada]

RIC this is OUR issue...

Yes, it is and the judgments and positions are so entrenched and passionate that no amount of arguments and logic on one side can convince the other.

You have a stereotype about an illegal immigrant and nothing in this world can change that. It is your experience to have dealt with those. There are many others who are good whom you may not have known. The same argument can be made about the entire population of any country.

It is sad to be attacked personally with an argument that I have not used. I have never looked down upon you. But I believe in the principles of my arguments and my convictions are based on them.

One day, when the passion is removed from this isssue, as it was in the case of the civil rights movement, slavery or the right of women to vote, we will look upon at this debate in its proper context. History is on my side.