Skins pick Mcintosh

sch1977 · Post by **sch1977** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:05 am

Look, As long as we keep progressing as a team and continue our playoff push, I couldn't care less is if we trade the picks. These guys know what they are doing! We got considerably better last year, and it wasn't due to our draft picks last year.

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:14 am

DCGloryYears828791 wrote:I dont know exactly what made up statistic you are talking about

This one:

We just traded:
2nd round, No. 53 (370 points)
6th round, No. 189 (15 points)
2nd round, 2007 draft (=85th pick, 165 points)
TOTAL: 540 points

To the Jets for:
2nd round, No. 35 (550 points)

That's not real. Somebody assigned value to each pick, as if each pick is worth equal value to every team every year. That's ridiculous, and that's not a very good way of evaluating a trade.

DCGloryYears828791 wrote:but to answer your question as to how many championships Joe Gibbs has one for our franchise, its 3. AND its the only three we have so IF you are a Skins fan you had better trust when this man makes a decison.

I do know how many championships Gibbs has "one", but he did all of those as our coach. If you think Bobby Beatherd and Charles Casserly had the same power that Vinny Cerrato has today, you are sorely mistaken.

And actually, the Redskins have five championships. Believe it or not, the NFL was not formed in 1966.

DCGloryYears828791 wrote:Im so sick and tired of fairweather, judgemental fans it makes me sick to my stomach. Look, if you disagree with the pick write a damn post saying that, but don't turn into one of those pos nfc east fans who knocks their organization when they don't agree with something.

That's funny, I don't remember typing that Gibbs should be fired as Team President. I guess I did that when I blacked out and turned into one of those "pos nfc east fans".

DCGloryYears828791 wrote:If it wasn't for Joe Gibbs we wouldn't even know what the hell an Super Bowl looked like, so sit back and enjoy and if you don't like it, like i said, get the hell off of the bus. We don't need you anyway. GREAT CHOICE JOE and GREGG and VINNIE and DAN!!!!! HAIL SKINS, THROUGH THICK AND THIN!!!!

Yes, I agree that Gibbs is a great coach, and I haven't said anything to the contrary. But just so you know, Gibbs actually has made a mistake or two in the past, including some in the draft (Desmond Howard, anyone?). So don't get all pissy when someone questions one of his moves. That's our right as fans and people who spend far too much time following this team.

I get a great buzz off of Joe Gibbs. You, on the other hand, are completley hammered, throwing up in the gutter and getting ready to do another line of shots. And I guess that's fine, but you'll understand why I don't want you as my bus driver.

sch1977 · Post by **sch1977** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:19 am

fleetus wrote:I reserve the right to disagree with anything I wish and no one on this board or any place else can say I'm not a loyal fan. If all we did on this board is agree with absolutely every move made unconditionally, it wouldn't be much of a discussion would it?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see we made a bad move and overpayed grossly for a player that we probably didn't need to trade up for in the first place. So through poor decisions we basically gave away next years 2nd and this years 6th. The margin for error in the NFC East is too narrow to be throwing away valuable draft picks, whether we use those picks to bring in guys like Lloyd(3rd) and Portis(2nd) or we draft guys like Jansen (2nd) and Betts(2nd) they are crucial to our success.

So, NO, I don't agree with the move whether it was a Gibbs move or a Snyder move, it was a bad move. and YES I am a loyal Skins fan. I just call it the way see it.

Okay, if the guy turns out to be a perenial pro-bowler is it a bad move? The point is, no one knows what we got until we see him play, and no one knows what we gave up until next year. So have some faith.

JR_USCG_GOSKINS · Post by **JR_USCG_GOSKINS** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:39 am

Every year at the draft we go through this,since Gibbs has retuned to the Skins. But, it always seems that the players we pick, end up being productive and fit our team needs. Pre-Gibbs days we would always pick some big name player that never panned out, such as:Westbrook, Shueler, and Gardner. I was shocked just like everyone else, but I'm sure he will fit and be an awesome player. The onething Gibbs is good at is reading people and if Gibbs and his Staff like this guy, thats good enough for me.

Hail to the Redskins, Semper Paratus

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:42 am

Steve Spurrier III wrote:
DCGloryYears828791 wrote:I dont know exactly what made up statistic you are talking about

This one:

We just traded:
2nd round, No. 53 (370 points)
6th round, No. 189 (15 points)
2nd round, 2007 draft (=85th pick, 165 points)
TOTAL: 540 points

To the Jets for:
2nd round, No. 35 (550 points)

That's not real. Somebody assigned value to each pick, as if each pick is worth equal value to every team every year. That's ridiculous, and that's not a very good way of evaluating a trade.

Those numbers come from the same draft pick value chart that is used around the league. Someone should tell them that someone just made it up.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:
DCGloryYears828791 wrote:but to answer your question as to how many championships Joe Gibbs has one for our franchise, its 3. AND its the only three we have so IF you are a Skins fan you had better trust when this man makes a decison.

I do know how many championships Gibbs has "one", but he did all of those as our coach. If you think Bobby Beatherd and Charles Casserly had the same power that Vinny Cerrato has today, you are sorely mistaken.

And actually, the Redskins have five championships. Believe it or not, the NFL was not formed in 1966.

You are correct on this one Charley and Bobby were both GMs, Vinny is the VP of Football Operations. There is a big difference there

Steve Spurrier III wrote:
DCGloryYears828791 wrote:Im so sick and tired of fairweather, judgemental fans it makes me sick to my stomach. Look, if you disagree with the pick write a damn post saying that, but don't turn into one of those pos nfc east fans who knocks their organization when they don't agree with something.

That's funny, I don't remember typing that Gibbs should be fired as Team President. I guess I did that when I blacked out and turned into one of those "pos nfc east fans".[/qutoe]
I went back and checked, I don't know what happen when you passed out but I saw nothing abuot firing Gibbs.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:
DCGloryYears828791 wrote:If it wasn't for Joe Gibbs we wouldn't even know what the hell an Super Bowl looked like, so sit back and enjoy and if you don't like it, like i said, get the hell off of the bus. We don't need you anyway. GREAT CHOICE JOE and GREGG and VINNIE and DAN!!!!! HAIL SKINS, THROUGH THICK AND THIN!!!!

Yes, I agree that Gibbs is a great coach, and I haven't said anything to the contrary. But just so you know, Gibbs actually has made a mistake or two in the past, including some in the draft (Desmond Howard, anyone?). So don't get all pissy when someone questions one of his moves. That's our right as fans and people who spend far too much time following this team.

I get a great buzz off of Joe Gibbs. You, on the other hand, are completley hammered, throwing up in the gutter and getting ready to do another line of shots. And I guess that's fine, but you'll understand why I don't want you as my bus driver.

Let him drive the bus... We all ride with Chris anyway and we've got a top of the line Wagon :lol:

You say Gibbs has made some mistakes in the past and at the same time you say Charley and Bobby called the shots back then. I think the Draft is a crapshoot and for a team that builds though the free agent market trading picks to get the guy that you want allows you to get a early dinner and enjoy the rest of the weekend

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:54 am

sch1977 wrote:
SkinsFanInHawai'i wrote:We gave up the 64th pick next year
to move up 18 spots to 35.
Looks like the Jets got screwed to me

Dont forget the pick this year. We gave them 2 2nd rounders for one!

It's simple math...we didn't give away this year's 2nd..we switched places. Our only net loss is the 6th this year and the 2nd next year.

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:00 am

What is the difference between trading away picks for the player that willmake an impact on your roster and drafting players with those picks that won't even make your team?

Look at our depth chart. Realistically speaking maybe 2 rookies at the most will make our active roster. The others have a small chance of making the PS.

Why keep all 6 picks if you can only sign 2 players? It makes no sense, yet people will continue to complain about it simply because of the fact that we traded more picks.

YOu can't have your cake and eat it to. We go shopping like a celebrity in Beverly Hills during FA. Those vets take up roster spots..and bump other proven players down the depth chart...therefore, there is no room for a great deal of rookies.

This is smart engineering of the roster...it's just a different philosophy than some teams that choose to build mainly through the draft.

Hate to break it to you folks...but our great FA signing period all but decided what we could do in the draft...since we can only add a few quality players...we did what we had to.

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:05 am

1niksder wrote:Those numbers come from the same draft pick value chart that is used around the league. Someone should tell them that someone just made it up.

I'm sure teams do know that they are made up. Maybe they do provide a rough estimation, but if that chart is the end all be all, why would teams ever trade draft picks? Wouldn't the Jets just look at that handy-dandy chart and realize they were the losers?

Like I said, draft picks have different values to different teams in different years. That chart might be a good way to set up a video game, but it's a bit more complicated in real life.

1niksder wrote:You say Gibbs has made some mistakes in the past and at the same time you say Charley and Bobby called the shots back then.

Fair enough. The point is that Gibbs wasn't running the whole show the first time around, and that despite his success, he isn't perfect. So questioning a trade shouldn't be considered some kind of heresy.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:14 am

The Hogster wrote:What is the difference between trading away picks for the player that willmake an impact on your roster and drafting players with those picks that won't even make your team?

Look at our depth chart. Realistically speaking maybe 2 rookies at the most will make our active roster. The others have a small chance of making the PS.

Why keep all 6 picks if you can only sign 2 players? It makes no sense, yet people will continue to complain about it simply because of the fact that we traded more picks.

YOu can't have your cake and eat it to. We go shopping like a celebrity in Beverly Hills during FA. Those vets take up roster spots..and bump other proven players down the depth chart...therefore, there is no room for a great deal of rookies.

This is smart engineering of the roster...it's just a different philosophy than some teams that choose to build mainly through the draft.

Hate to break it to you folks...but our great FA signing period all but decided what we could do in the draft...since we can only add a few quality players...we did what we had to.

I posted the same thing on page 2 or 3 of this thread but after reading the opinions of other posters, I've changed my mind on this move.

I now feel that Gibbs should be fired behind this move. So what there was a run on defensive players in this years draft, McIntosh could have been there at #53. Three drafts and 3 years in a row Gibbs has screwed us - He chose Sean Taylor over KWII because he liked some guy name Cool

ey, then he passed on Mike Williams for Carlos Rodgers because of a trade he made with the Jets to get a underside receiver they didn't want, and now he moves up in the draft to get a guy that plays WLB, good tackler and strong in coverage - coming from a program that has been know to produce good NFL talent.

I don't know Gibbs has been doing but he obviously hasn't been following who is available coming into the league

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:37 am

Steve Spurrier III wrote:
1niksder wrote:Those numbers come from the same draft pick value chart that is used around the league. Someone should tell them that someone just made it up.

I'm sure teams do know that they are made up. Maybe they do provide a rough estimation, but if that chart is the end all be all, why would teams ever trade draft picks? Wouldn't the Jets just look at that handy-dandy chart and realize they were the losers?

Like I said, draft picks have different values to different teams in different years. That chart might be a good way to set up a video game, but it's a bit more complicated in real life.

Draft picks have value assigned to them for trade purposes. Most teams won't make a trade until they are on the clock because the value of the pick will change based on their needs so I understand what you are saying. It's not a end all tell all it's a reference. The Jets felt the trade was fair so the took it. Next year's 2nd was worth what a 3rd this year would be worth so the additional 6th made it doable for the Jets. However the better we do this year the more that pick will decrease in value next year. Another reason why it's just a reference

Steve Spurrier III wrote:
1niksder wrote:You say Gibbs has made some mistakes in the past and at the same time you say Charley and Bobby called the shots back then.

Fair enough. The point is that Gibbs wasn't running the whole show the first time around, and that despite his success, he isn't perfect. So questioning a trade shouldn't be considered some kind of heresy.

Gibbs has repeatedly said that it is a process and the process includes Him, the scouting department, and the Danny of course Vinny C. is always in earshot of the Danny. So Gibbs isn't really running the whole show, he's just taking all the hit's for the F.O.

Also:

I'm not defending the move to go up and get McIntosh, but I'm saying it wasn't a bad move to get the palyer that you wanted. Gibbs said he had been trying to move up since Friday night, but couldn't get a partner. He also said the Jets called him about trading spots, which could account for the difference in the value of the picks. NE made the same trade in essence to go from one spot above us at #52 to one spot below us (#36) to get who they wanted. They had a 3rd round pick (we didn't) they didn't give up a sixth rounder the gave up a Lineman ( :cry:

we need lieman). So the trade wasn't bad on our end and again the pick in next years draft will lose value as we get better.

And when it comes to Redskins/Jets trades don't they always get hosed

Wysocki · Post by **Wysocki** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:46 am

Why the hell did we just sit there at #53 waiting for someone to just fall into our laps? We could have traded up and gotten Rocky McIntosh! What? We did? Oh...Why the hell did we trade up? We paid 2 #2s and a 6th to get 1 #2? We get ripped off every year! Trust Joe and enjoy the ride.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:55 am

Wysocki wrote:Why the hell did we just sit there at #53 waiting for someone to just fall into our laps? We could have traded up and gotten Rocky McIntosh! What? We did? Oh...Why the hell did we trade up? We paid 2 #2s and a 6th to get 1 #2? We get ripped off every year! Trust Joe and enjoy the ride.

Enjoy the ride? I thought we were parked. We must have turned off that bumpy and rocky road a few years ago, and we've been on level road. I can start looking out the windows again? When Steve was driving all of the scenary was the same so I stopped looking.

Wysocki · Post by **Wysocki** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:13 pm

Yep, look out the window now and feel the warmth - 'cuz the sun shines on the gators...uh, Hurricanes...

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:14 pm

As far as the pick goes, I'm really happy with it.

I think we gave up too much to move up in the same round but McIntosh may be worth it.

From everything I've read about him, he seems to be more of a mental player as opposed to physical. I've read that he's very disciplined and takes good angles.

And just from looking at him, the guy is in great shape.

He should be a very good blitzer and I think he will fit in very well with our defense.

EA7649 · Post by **EA7649** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:43 pm

I think its a good pick its practically a first rd pick (35)

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:33 pm

EA7649 wrote:I think its a good pick its practically a first rd pick (35)

Precisely! This was just like trading into the 1st round...the talent that went at 31 is no different from the guy at 35.

fleetus · Post by **fleetus** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:34 pm

Using the draft pick value chart that the NFL uses, we gave up picks worth roughly 750 points. And the #35 pick is worth 550. So we gave up 200 points value for no reason. In addition, most scouts had McIntosh rated somewhere around #50, so we had a decent shot of getting him without giving away any picks. This is sloppy management.

Some of you guys are so dead set on being excited about anyone the Skins pick, you wouldn't care how many picks we piss away or who we choose with the pick. Fine, enjoy the party, I'm sure Rocky will be a fine LB for us for years to come.

What bothers me, has very little to do with McIntosh or whether he will develop into a good player. Gregg Williams could probably develop me into a decent starting LB. It has to do with the fact that draft picks are major bargaining chips worth quite a bit of money. The only way you get young, inexpensive talent to play special teams and backup roles is through the draft. We gave up enough picks to the NYJ to warrant moving up to Pick #23!!! So to move up to 35, we should have at least gotten a 3rd or 4th round pick back from the Jets for all the picks we gave them. While we lose players and value, the Cowboys, Eagles and Giants continue to make smart moves. I just hope this trend doesn't continue.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:42 pm

fleetus wrote:Using the draft pick value chart that the NFL uses, we gave up picks worth roughly 750 points. And the #35 pick is worth 550. So we gave up 200 points value for no reason. In addition, most scouts had McIntosh rated somewhere around #50, so we had a decent shot of getting him without giving away any picks. This is sloppy management.

You don't get full value for a future pick. So the deal was pretty much even

Steve Spurrier III · Post by **Steve Spurrier III** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:47 pm

Looking back, Gibbs never did get fantastic value out of his early picks anyway (which may be part of the reason the Redskins only had a first round pick four times). And the real success he did have early in the draft (rounds 1-3) came early in his career:

Great Players:
Mark May - 1981 first round
Russ Grimm - 1981 third round
Darrell Green - 1983 first round
Charles Mann - 1983 third round

Useful Players:
Vernon Dean - 1982 second round
Jay Schroeder - 1983 third round
Alvin Walton - 1986 third round
Chip Lohmiller - 1988 third round
Andre Collins - 1990 second round

That's not a whole lot of success stories for 12 drafts, especially considering the four really good players and two useful players were all drafted before 1983. In fact, with Sean Taylor, Carlos Rogers and Chris Cool

ey already qualifing as "useful players", you can argue that the Gibbs-Redskins have done the best job drafting since 1981-1983.

More of the Redskins' success came through trades (Jim Lachey), free agency (Wilber Marshall), late round draft picks (Kurt Gouveia), undrafted free agents (Joe Jacoby) and players from other leagues (Gary Clark).

I still think we overpaid for Campbell and McIntosh, but remembering that this is more or less status quo for Gibbs softens the blow.

fleetus · Post by **fleetus** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:55 pm

I wasn't calculating full value. the pick wasn't even close to even.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:06 pm

fleetus wrote:I wasn't calculating full value. the pick wasn't even close to even.

we got - 2006 #35 = 550

tehy got - 2006 #53 = 370 + next years 2nd = 170 that's 540 and we threw in a 6th rounder this year.

What 6th round pick you know of worth 210 points

fleetus · Post by **fleetus** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:14 pm

What second round pick is worth 170? The absolute last 2nd pick, held by next years Super Bowl winner is worth 270. Nice math:)

hkHog · Post by **hkHog** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:47 pm

fleetus wrote:What second round pick is worth 170? The absolute last 2nd pick, held by next years Super Bowl winner is worth 270. Nice math:)

Dude, you obviously haven't been paying attention. Future picks are worth much less than current picks:

In instances where next year’s draft picks are traded, teams generally divide the league into quadrants, ranking how they expect a team to finish next year. If the Chargers were to deal with the Eagles, who are expected by many to finish in the top eight next year after an active offseason, San Diego could expect a 2005 first-round pick belonging to Philadelphia to be worth 680-800 points. If the Chargers were considering a trade with the 49ers, who are expected to finish in the bottom eight after depleting their roster of much of its veteran talent to better position the team financially for the future, they could expect to receive value ranging from 1,400 to 3,000 points. However, because there is so much parity in the league and it's difficult to predict where a club will finish, some teams generally expect to receive about 1,000 points in exchange for a future first-round pick from a bad team and 750 from a contender. Also, in any trade involving draft choices in both the current year and a future year, most teams will value, say, a fourth-round pick in the current draft as being worth a third-rounder in next year's draft — the team receiving the future pick moving up a round in return for having to wait an extra year to exercise its pick.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NF ... eValue.htm

Now if you look at the draft value chart, the 20th pick in the third round is worth 170 pts. We made the playoffs this year so if we make them again next year we will AT BEST be picking 20th. That means our second round pick next year will be worth AT MOST 170 pts this year!

Do the math, it's easy!!! This was a very fair trade! You're the one who should be working on their math.

welch · Post by **welch** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:00 pm

Draft points are an artificial concept. Points scored in a game are real.

The Redskins wanted this particular linebacker. They got him. What's wrong with that?

Recall the furor when Beathard traded a future first round pick for a third round pick? They did it to get Russ Grimm, because they really want both Mark May and Russ Grimm. They got them, and with Jeff Bostic and Joe Jacoby, they got the Hogs.

Bad move?

LetsRollBurgundyNGold · Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:39 pm

The 2nd rounder this year @ #35: 550 pts

The 2nd rounder given up @ #53: 370
The 6th rounder given up @ #189: 15.8
Next year's 2nd calculated @ this years' 3rd (approx. pick #85): 165

370
165
+ 15.8

550.8

So not such an uneven trade, and if McIntosh were to help the team go further than it did last season, that "draft pick" number would go down, and Burgundy and Gold fans' happiness would go up.

*figures taken from http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/6330687