SWAT officer shot student

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:14 pm

LONGWOOD, Florida (AP) -- A suicidal eighth grader who pulled a handgun in class and briefly took another child hostage was shot by a SWAT team member Friday when he later threatened deputies, Seminole County officials said.

Sheriff Don Eslinger said the 15-year-old boy brought the gun to Milwee Middle School in his backpack and briefly took a fellow student hostage during a classroom scuffle.

The student then ran from the classroom and was pursued by deputies into a restroom and isolated there, Eslinger said. The school was evacuated, and no one else was injured. Officials with the sheriff's office said they had not confirmed whether the gun the boy had was real or a toy.

"At one time he held the gun to his neck. As the deputies attempted to establish dialogue, he raised the firearm and lethal force was used by the sheriff's office," Eslinger said.

The boy was taken to the hospital. His condition was unknown.

"He was suicidal," Eslinger said. "During this standoff, and during the chase, the student said he was going to kill himself or die."

Classes were canceled for the rest of the day, and frantic parents arrived to pick up their children.

"When I saw the news, I just couldn't believe this was my daughter's school. I came right away," said Anil Santos, whose daughter, Aleister, is in eighth grade.

Sarah Tivy, a seventh grader, said some students were frightened, but she appeared calm.

"I just figured that if someone is going to bring a gun to school, then they need to be taken out of school," the 12-year-old said.

http://www.cnn.com

Thats serious business. I wonder why they didn't beanbag the kid instead...

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:52 pm

Screw the beanbag. When a person pulls a gun, no matter how old they are, you kill them.......dead. Better them than you.

It's a tough case, to be sure, but it's just another incident of "suicide by cop".

Okay, okay, before I get hate mail....yes, if the person is under 8 years of age, maybe you wouldn't kill them right away. You count to 10 first, then kill them.

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:17 pm

It doesn't say he's dead or where he was shot. They may have just shot the gun out of his hand.

In any case, cops put their lives on the line, and as a former Marine, I know what has to happen to autorize the use of deadly force. Key word APPLES:

A - Against Persons, as in to prevent the commission of a serious crime that involves imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm (for example, setting fire to an inhabited dwelling or sniping), including the defense of other persons, where deadly force is directed against the person threatening to commit the crime. Examples include murder, armed robbery, and aggravated assault.

P - Protect Property vital to national security

P - Protect property not vital to national security, but enherently dangerous to others.

L - Last Resort

E - Escape, as in preventing the escape of a fugitive who is dangerous to national security, i.e. shoot Bin Laden rather than allowing him to escape.

S - Self-defense or the defense of other law enforcement / military personnel.

REDEEMEDSKIN · Post by **REDEEMEDSKIN** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:25 pm

Yup, you GOTTA have big apples to make a decision like the one the SWAT Team member made. I'm sure the police department will be overwhelmed by the firestorm of criticism over this incident.

JansenFan · Post by **JansenFan** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:32 pm

Maybe so, but if the kid pointed a gun, the shooting was perfectly within the rights of the officer in questions.

That being said, hopefully it was of the non-lethal variety.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:23 pm

Count to 10 and then kill the eight-year old?

Brilliant.

Because an eight-year old is now suddenly capable of being an adult, right? I mean, that's what you're going to say as a defense attorney if you get them in front of a jury right?

Just out of curiosity... what if you later figured out that that 8-year old hadn't removed the safety??

... or what if they were in diabetic shock?

... or worse yet, what if they're SO young and impressionable that they just figured it was a toy gun? You're talking about an EIGHT YEAR OLD after all... that's a kid in grade 3!

So if at 8 years old, they're old enough to be tried as an adult, what's next? Drop the age of consent to 8-years old too? I mean if they're old enough to be held fully responsible for their actions, then surely they are old enough to make valid life decisions like who they have sex with right?

Or should we just shoot them too?

These are things that I would hope a defense attorney actually thinks about. After all... who wants a defense attorney that rushes to rash, biased, judgemental decisions?

My 2 cents

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:30 pm

The problem here is the times we are living in..Since 9/11 you don't paly in this country. We have become a shoot first ask questions later society.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:41 pm

DEHog wrote:The problem here is the times we are living in..Since 9/11 you don't paly in this country. We have become a shoot first ask questions later society.

So now the eight year old is a harbinger of terrorism?

:roll:

Gimme a break.

I'm talking about an 8-year old as posed by the anecdote... not an Iraqi import that you're putting through flight school.

Maybe the reason it's become such an epidemic is because you have a nation of people rationalizing senseless killing instead of trying to actually find a solution... including the people that are supposed to defend them.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:51 pm

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/200 ... 01-13.html

This is an editorial from my local paper. What isn't mentioned is that the "cop" had drawn down on the kids, and nearly shot when the one teen made a sudden move to his waistband.
To echo a line from the editorial, we're asking too much of the police and not enough of the kids.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:54 pm

I want to state that I'm not judging the incident in question...

... but to me that's a lot different than shooting an 8-year old... hypothetically or not.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:55 pm

Did I not call it a "problem"? Where in my post did I say it was OK..I'm just expessing a opinion of how our society has reacted to some horrible event that have happened in this country.

I see your fired uo today...Gameday...let go :lowblow:

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:05 pm

DEHog wrote:Did I not call it a "problem"? Where in my post did I say it was OK..I'm just expessing a opinion of how our society has reacted to some horrible event that have happened in this country.

Yeah I get it... you rationalized... and I assure you... if you lived in a country that DOESN'T want every one of it's citizens to have their own gun to 'protect themselves'... you'd likely see it from a completely different perspective.

I see senseless killing... you see justified killing based on senselessness...

DEHog wrote:I see your fired uo today...Gameday...let go

Actually.. I think you'd find that I'd be passionate about a lawyer wanting to shoot an 8-year old any day of the week.

My 2 cents

Maybe I should just go out and shoot someone.

DEHog · Post by **DEHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:14 pm

s

BossHog wrote:
DEHog wrote:Did I not call it a "problem"? Where in my post did I say it was OK..I'm just expessing a opinion of how our society has reacted to some horrible event that have happened in this country.

Yeah I get it... you rationalized... and I assure you... if you lived in a country that DOESN'T want every one of it's citizens to have their own gun to 'protect themselves'... you'd likely see it from a completely different perspective.

I see senseless killing... you see justified killing based on senselessness...

DEHog wrote:I see your fired uo today...Gameday...let go

Actually.. I think you'd find that I'd be passionate about a lawyer wanting to shoot an 8-year old any day of the week.

Maybe I should just go out and shoot someone.

I never said it was justfied...I'll say this again...In this country since 9/11 it has become this way. I will be the first to admit when I get on a plane...I scan the crowd...I get nervous around crowds now.(yes even at Skins games)

There are counties where gun control works like Japan and there are countries like Sweden where everyone owns one and it works. I would in no way condone the shooting of a 8 year old...That being said there are people in this country who would.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:22 pm

DEHog wrote: I never said it was justfied...I'll say this again...In this country since 9/11 it has become this way. I will be the first to admit when I get on a plane...I scan the crowd...I get nervous around crowds now.(yes even at Skins games)

You think I don't look around when I get on a plane? Come on man... everyone in the free world does now.

I'm not for one second saying that 9/11 didn't change a lot of things, including EVERYONE'S perception of travel... and that includes my own.

But how is that related to what happens in a grade school?

DEHog wrote:I would in no way condone the shooting of a 8 year old...That being said there are people in this country who would.

Even defense attorneys.

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:46 pm

Hah. I think it's hilarious, personally, that a Canadian can't pick up a humorous anecdote when it is written and takes the thing so seriously, going off on a tangent of his own.

Kill an 8 year old. Of course, I wouldn't advocate doing that! You crack me up, Mark, you really do. You're so busy being judgmental and condescending yourself, often (in my opinion) thinking that your opinions are so far superior than those of others, that you don't take the time to think whether one's post is completely serious or not.

Can an 8 year old kill someone as easily as a 14 year old, 18 year old? Absolutely. I've been a Probation/Parole Officer for 8 years. I've been a prosecutor for 8 years. I've prosecuted juvenile defendants...yes...as young as 8 years old...and I've seen what some (a very select few) 8 year olds are capable of doing. Would I still advocate wasting an 8 year old? No. If an 8 year old pointed a gun at me and I truly felt my life (or the life of my loved one(s)) was in danger, would I take him out? I absolutely would....and I would never apologize for that.

Each situation is different and cops have the hardest job in the world because they have to make quick decisions that may be life threatening. I, for one, would never want that responsibility.

And...as for your opinions of defense attorneys, especially this particular defense attorney, I couldn't care less.

On a more serious, and less defensive, note, it sounds like the boy is now brain dead. It's horrible. I would hate to tbe the police officer or any family member of the boy.

Lawyer: Teen Shot by Police is Brain Dead

REDEEMEDSKIN · Post by **REDEEMEDSKIN** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:01 pm

Justice Hog wrote:Hah. I think it's hilarious, personally, that a Canadian can't pick up a humorous anecdote when it is written and takes the thing so seriously, going off on a tangent of his own.

Kill an 8 year old. Of course, I wouldn't advocate doing that! You crack me up, Mark, you really do. You're so busy being judgmental and condescending yourself, often (in my opinion) thinking that your opinions are so far superior than those of others, that you don't take the time to think whether one's post is completely serious or not.

Can an 8 year old kill someone as easily as a 14 year old, 18 year old? Absolutely.

Each situation is different and cops have the hardest job in the world because they have to make quick decisions that may be life threatening. I, for one, would never want that responsibility.

And...as for your opinions of defense attorneys, especially this particular defense attorney, I couldn't care less.

On a more serious, and less defensive, note, it sounds like the boy is now brain dead. It's horrible. I would hate to tbe the police officer or any family member of the boy.

Lawyer: Teen Shot by Police is Brain Dead

Why the argument over an eight year old. the EIGHTH GRADER had to be at least 13, maybe 14. I think some of you got worked up without reading properly.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm

Justice Hog wrote:Hah. I think it's hilarious, personally, that a Canadian can't pick up a humorous anecdote when it is written and takes the thing so seriously, going off on a tangent of his own.

yep... shooting an 8-year old dead is a very humorous anecdote. :celebrate:

Justice Hog wrote:Kill an 8 year old. Of course, I wouldn't advocate doing that!

Really? What did this mean then?

Justice Hog wrote:....yes, if the person is under 8 years of age, maybe you wouldn't kill them right away. You count to 10 first, then kill them

I don't see a smiley? I don't see a sarcasm tag? I just see a statement. I don't see anything that would give anyone the impression that this was spoken in jest.

Justice Hog wrote:You crack me up, Mark, you really do. You're so busy being judgmental and condescending yourself, often (in my opinion) thinking that your opinions are so far superior than those of others, that you don't take the time to think whether one's post is completely serious or not.

I didn't say my opinion was right. But I have the right to have that opinion just like anyone else does. And i've re-read your post a dozen times to look for even a hint of itt being tongue-in-cheek as opposed to a statement of how you actually felt... still can't find anything. Because there isn't anything. This is just back-pedalling on your part.

Justice Hog wrote:Can an 8 year old kill someone as easily as a 14 year old, 18 year old? Absolutely. I've been a Probation/Parole Officer for 8 years. I've been a prosecutor for 8 years. I've prosecuted juvenile defendants...yes...as young as 8 years old...and I've seen what some (a very select few) 8 year olds are capable of doing. Would I still advocate wasting an 8 year old? No.

Uhhh... but you did, remember...

Justice Hog wrote:....yes, if the person is under 8 years of age, maybe you wouldn't kill them right away. You count to 10 first, then kill them

And then again...

Justice Hog wrote:If an 8 year old pointed a gun at me and I truly felt my life (or the life of my loved one(s)) was in danger, would I take him out? I absolutely would....and I would never apologize for that.

How do you NOT advocate wasting an 8-year old? In your very next paragraph quoted above... you do just that.

Justice Hog wrote:And...as for your opinions of defense attorneys, especially this particular defense attorney, I couldn't care less.

You're an officer of the court... you swear to not let personal bias get in the way... isn't that what a lawyer's oath is taken for?

... for the ceremonious rite by which that individual learns that he/she IS held to a different set of standards. Isn't that correct?

You're a defense attorney now... not a prosecuting attorney. What if the mother of the kid that got shot came to ask you to defend her son now? Would you say, no thanks.. the kid pointed a gun and deserved it?

Defense attorneys don't get to judge their clients, let alone pre-judge them... well not if they want to earn a living they don't.

And you don't have to take this as any more than one guy's opinion... because it isn't. But I'm willing to bet that there are others who feel the exact same way as I do.... and those are the people that you're looking to now to earn a living.

My 2 cents

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:23 pm

Okay, I understand your point, however, when I wrote that a cop is actually gonna count to 10....and then shoot someone, that statement....by itself...should have suggested the comment was less that serious.

I was a law enforcement officer back in the day and there is no way that any law enforcement officer is gonna count to 10 and then shoot someone. That statement is rediculous and I thought those reading would assume the same and take the entire statement in that vein.

Then again, I guess I was wrong.

And...I'll just say this. I don't advocate killing an 8-year old; however, I DO ADVOCATE protecting my life, my family's life, my friend's life...and if that means I have to shoot someone, anyone, to do it, I will. That is the point I was trying to make. If I feel our life is threatened (after considering other factors), I will take the necessary action to eliminate that threat.

BossHog wrote:What if the mother of the kid that got shot came to ask you to defend her son now? Would you say, no thanks.. the kid pointed a gun and deserved it?

Good question. I would look at all of the facts of the case and give the woman my honest opinion as whether I felt the police officer was justified in shooting her son. She may or may not like my answer, but I would be honest with her.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:11 am

Believe it or not, I've been waiting for a long time to watch you two birds get into it, and I'm bitterly disappointed.

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:56 pm

Sorry, TC. I'm not really one to talk Smack, really....unless, of course, I'm completely drunk. Then, I lose any vocabulary except four letter words and other explicatives that have little or no meaning.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:02 pm

tcwest10 wrote:Believe it or not, I've been waiting for a long time to watch you two birds get into it, and I'm bitterly disappointed.

I didn't think there was anything left to discuss... neither did Justice obviously. He expressed his opinion, I expressed mine... that's what we're on a message board for.

Perhaps you should ask yourself if the issue is your disappointment... or the part about being bitter?

My 2 cents

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:34 pm

You'll have to call me out for that.