Time Management

[70Chip]

We should have converted the 3rd and 2...no other excuse. Im not defending a "bonehead decision" Im just not convinced that you have shown that trying to run for 2 yards qualifies as "boneheaded".

Heya!

Looks to me like your just looking to argue for arguement sake here. Darthmonk didn't say Gibbs decision to run was Boneheaded at all. Just that it was a strategic error to decide to run on 3rd and 2 for primary purpose of running the clock. Gibbs was more concerned with keeping the clock moving then making the first down. Thats a given since he state that he called upstairs for the "best run" Passing just wasn't an option in Gibbs view, as it would have stopped the clock. In this instance given time left down distance and field postition, getting the first down should have been the priority. What Gibbs should have called upstairs for was the best possible play to give "Us" a first down, not the best possible run.

[cvillehog]

We should have converted the 3rd and 2...no other excuse. Im not defending a "bonehead decision" Im just not convinced that you have shown that trying to run for 2 yards qualifies as "boneheaded".

Heya!

Looks to me like your just looking to argue for arguement sake here. Darthmonk didn't say Gibbs decision to run was Boneheaded at all. Just that it was a strategic error to decide to run on 3rd and 2 for primary purpose of running the clock. Gibbs was more concerned with keeping the clock moving then making the first down. Thats a given since he state that he called upstairs for the "best run" Passing just wasn't an option in Gibbs view, as it would have stopped the clock. In this instance given time left down distance and field postition, getting the first down should have been the priority. What Gibbs should have called upstairs for was the best possible play to give "Us" a first down, not the best possible run.

Again, you are assuming that the purpose of the run was to use up the clock and not to get a first down.

[The Hogster]

WORKING IS THE BOGUS REASON TO CALL IT RIGHT. YOU DON'T WANNA LIVE THERE. YOU DON'T WANT TO DEFEND BONEHEAD DECISIONS WITH "WELL, IT WORKED" DO YOU?

Hmm..contradiction number 2. Maybe reading in entirety before you post would help. I said I can agree to disagree. Your comment that Gibbs should have called for the best possible "play" is nothing more than your opinion. He obviously thought that his best "run" could get the first down. Considering that we needed two yards, the decision was appropriate.

Arguing scemantics here. Like the poster above said. You are making the assumption that the "best" play was a "pass" play. Impossible to say with any certainty dude. We have the Raiders coming to town and we are bickering about one play.

[70Chip]

We should have converted the 3rd and 2...no other excuse. Im not defending a "bonehead decision" Im just not convinced that you have shown that trying to run for 2 yards qualifies as "boneheaded".

Heya!

Looks to me like your just looking to argue for arguement sake here. Darthmonk didn't say Gibbs decision to run was Boneheaded at all. Just that it was a strategic error to decide to run on 3rd and 2 for primary purpose of running the clock. Gibbs was more concerned with keeping the clock moving then making the first down. Thats a given since he state that he called upstairs for the "best run" Passing just wasn't an option in Gibbs view, as it would have stopped the clock. In this instance given time left down distance and field postition, getting the first down should have been the priority. What Gibbs should have called upstairs for was the best possible play to give "Us" a first down, not the best possible run.

Again, you are assuming that the purpose of the run was to use up the clock and not to get a first down.

Heya!

Nope, Gibbs said after the game(on Monday WTEM spot I think) that he didn't consider passing because it would have stopped the clock. So he called upstairs for the best possible run. Of course he was looking for a first down but that was secondary to not risking the clock stoping on an incomplete pass.

[The Hogster]

SO WHAT?? We needed 2 yards. What's your point? Since you think passing on 3rd and 2 with less than 3 minutes to go when you have a lead is the best way to go, I think you'd be a good candidate to be an Andy Reid fan..

Oh..wait...we see how that turned out.

Bill Parcells did the same thing against the E-gals. After taking the lead with the interception he ran 3 straight run plays. Said he thought about passing but elected otherwise to kill the clock. Eagles got the ball back. I guess you're right, Parcells and Gibbs don't know what they're doing.

Sometimes it works in your favor, sometimes it doesn't. There is no "science" to this. It's football and the reality of the game.

[DarthMonk]

To Hogster, 70Chip and anyone still interested. I'm new to this forum but not forums in general. 70Chip read my posts with a clear mind. Don't wanna get off on wrong foot. Didn't say running was a strategic error. Said totally abandoning pass option for the sake of time THEN was a strategiic error. 70Chip did a good job of "correcting" your misconceptions (sorry Hogster - really) and summing up my points. It's like poker. If you make the same play every time in a given situation you become predictable. What woulda been nice is if Gibbs had a history of mixing in a few passes in this situation. Then Tampa would've needed to defend both run and pass there. A history like that would've made the run play more likely to succeed. He's probably been there a few dozen times over the years and run it every time. He is now predictable in this scenario. Right before the snap Troy Aikmen said "I wouldn't be surprised to see a little dump to ey." Well I sure would've. I'm not saying the pass was the right call. I'm saying it's too bad Gibbs always runs here out of too much concern for time. I'm saying totally discounting the pass "cuz I'm not gonna throw an incomplete and give themn 40 sec" is a strategic error in this particular situation. It's was bad way to assess this particular situation. I feel like you've started to attack me Hogster. Maybe I have done the same to you. If so - sorry. But argue with my arguement about wether Gibbs overvalues time or not. Don't set up straw men that I never created so you can knock them down - please.

For instance, I did NOT call THIS play a "boneheaded decision." I made a general comment about not wanting to be in the position of defending boneheaded decisions with "well, it worked."

Go 'Skins, go Gibbs, go Portis, go good guys, down with the Cowgirls.

[The Hogster]

Okay, Im gonna let this go. But I responded to what you wrote in quotations and now you are qualifying all of your statements that I quoted. I can only go on what you write, not what I think you meant.

For instance, saying running was a strategic error suggests to a reasonable person that you thought we should have passed.

As for your thought that Gibbs is predictable in that scenario, I disagree. In fact, if you look at our stats since his return (especially this year) we have thrown for a first down on 3rd down over 60 percent of the time. If you really think about it the more "predictable" play for Gibbs would have been the wide receiver quick screen which he usually runs in short yardage situations and on first downs.

Earlier in the game we ran the "little dump pass to ey" thats why Aikman said he wouldn't be surprised.

Again, I am not attacking you, but when you introduce yourself to the board with a comment that Gibbs is 'weak in time management' well you should be prepared to defend that statement. This is the best Redskins Fans Site on the Net, not becacuse of all of cool graphics, but because there are a few people on here who know football and the Skins and enjoy challenging each other to keep perspective.

While you didn't explicitly say this was a 'bonehead play' in the context of our conversation you suggested it. I can only respond to the things that you have written.

Anyway, we have the Raiders coming to town...I will be at the game hopefully making it one voice tougher for Collins to hear himself think. As of right now, Gibbs has done fine in time management and everything else this year.

We can improve of course, but we are on the right course. Our Time of Possession is consistently better than our opponents, our offense is drastically improved, Brunnel is playing well, if the players minimize some of the mistakes, we are not even having this chat. If you think Gibbs over values time in situations like that, then so be it, but keep in mind that is your opinion, and one that we all don't have to agree with, as seen in this thread.

[DarthMonk]

As for your thought that Gibbs is predictable in that scenario, I disagree. In fact, if you look at our stats since his return (especially this year) we have thrown for a first down on 3rd down over 60 percent of the time. If you really think about it the more "predictable" play for Gibbs would have been the wide receiver quick screen which he usually runs in short yardage situations and on first downs.

Earlier in the game we ran the "little dump pass to ey" thats why Aikman said he wouldn't be surprised.

Again, I am not attacking you, but when you introduce yourself to the board with a comment that Gibbs is 'weak in time management' well you should be prepared to defend that statement. This is the best Redskins Fans Site on the Net, not becacuse of all of cool graphics, but because there are a few people on here who know football and the Skins and enjoy challenging each other to keep perspective.

While you didn't explicitly say this was a 'bonehead play' in the context of our conversation you suggested it. I can only respond to the things that you have written.

Anyway, we have the Raiders coming to town...I will be at the game hopefully making it one voice tougher for Collins to hear himself think. As of right now, Gibbs has done fine in time management and everything else this year.

Golly Hogster, you seem like a great guy. I'm glad you'll be there yelling. I go to one or two a year. No season ticket. Been doing it since 85 or so.

I guess all I can add is by "that situation" I mean late while protecting a lead - not 3rd and 2 in general. In the situation I am trying to discuss Gibbs always runs because, in my perhaps wrong view, he over values time. We have to separate 3rd and short in general from that particular 3rd and short. If you can do that than me saying "Gibbs has been in that situation a few dozen times" makes sense. Then we can really argue about the same thing.

I think Gibbs is better at time managemant than he was a year ago. I think he still needs work there. I think he is a great coach. I think he is humble. I hope he works on this aspect of his game. I my humble opinion, he should.