portis26 wrote:That's easy. He has played better than Brunell.
How has he played better?
2004 Stats Ramsey vs. Brunell
QB Rating: 74.8 vs 63.9 Yards/game: 185 vs 133 Fumbles/lost: 6/1 vs 5/3 TD/INT: 10/11 vs 7/6 Record: 3-4 vs 3-6
I don't care about last year. I care about this year. I care that Ramsey, since this preseason, has throw something like 2 TDs and 5 INTs, not to mention the fumbles. I don't know if those are the exact numbers because I'm just pulling them from the top of my head. I don't recall any crucial mistakes by Brunell since the preseason started.
Brunell had two crucial mistakes today. He could have cost us the game had not his interception been called back, and his stupid third down pass to ey on the one with goal to go was a classic bonehead play, especially with ST all alone in the end zone.
Actually, I don't remember Ramsey making a crucial error. His interception went for naught, but might have been crucial, I guess. Let's see. That's one. Brunell had two. Two is more than one.
ok, all of this ridiculousness seriously needs to stop. brunell should start over ramsey? WHY??? sure, brunell looked OK today. he looked like a solid backup, and MAYBE even a decent starter. but did he look that much better than ramsey??? NO!!!
i taped the game (yes, tape, i am ghetto and don't have TiVo) and am watching it again right now. ramsey looked awful on his 1st series. but on the second series, so far he has done the following:
1: out of his own endzone, hit moss for 12 yards on 3rd and 11.
2: hit patten for 14 on 3rd and 7-- which was negated by an absurd "illegal shift" penalty.
3: hit moss for 14 on the ensuing 3rd and 12.
4: hit portis right between the numbers on 2nd down. it would have put us at least 3rd and 2, but portis dropped it, leaving us in 3rd and long. the bears were then able to go for the big blitz, and ramsey fumbled trying to wait too long to make a play (jansen fell on the ball and recovered it).
on ramsey's 3rd series:
1. hit cooley for 9 yards on 3rd and 2
2. on the next play, threw a 25 yard pass to moss in stride, allowing him to run for 30 extra yards
***NOTE: the next two plays were substantial runs-- ramsey's effective passing forced the bears to stop keying in on the run***
3. the most important thing he did all day: on 2nd and goal, there was no one open and HE PULLED THE BALL DOWN AND RAN WITH IT. he didn't get very far but he didn't take a bad sack, and didn't try to force a throw. HE LEARNED FROM HIS MISTAKE EARLIER IN THE GAME.
4. on the next play, he threw a perfect TD pass to cooley. i have watched the replay over and over again in slow motion, frame by frame, and people there is absolutely no question that the defender initiated the contact with cooley. he wrapped him up and cooley was simply trying to push the guy back off of him so he could actually catch the ball. so as far as i'm concerned, this counts as a TD for ramsey in terms of evaluating his play. note that ramsey's pass brought cooley INTO the endzone, unlike brunell's goal-line pass to cooley later in the game that didn't quite make it.
4. on the NEXT play after being robbed of a TD by the refs, ramsey was absolutely crushed in the neck with an insanely illegal "clothesline" tackle. i'm sorry but you can't count this as a fumble against ramsey! no one would be able to hold onto the ball being hit like that-- most other QBs wouldn't even have gotten up! and i don't want to hear any of this BS that it wasn't an illegal hit, that it was in the chest, not the neck. i have it on frame-by-frame on my VCR right now and his arm is literally swung across ramsey's neck. this guy will probably be fined at least $10,000. we should've had a 1st down within the 5.
so let's recap:
1st SERIES: INT
2nd SERIES: 50 yard drive from the 1 yard line-- including 3 great throws on 3rd down
3rd SERIES: 90 yard TD drive-- including a clutch 3rd down conversion, a 52 yard pass to moss, and great red zone play
THAT, my friends, is the kind of playing that will get us a win against the cowboys. after that 1st series he looked VERY GOOD.
so no, brunell did not somehow magically make the O-line better and the running game better. RAMSEY DID, by making chicago pay for keying in on the run.
None of us has much reason to be confident in either of our qb's. With that said, I think we need to give Ramsey an extended look to either sink or swim.
If that doesn't work out maybe try to package both for Peyton?
Thank you die cowboy die for your analysis. It was acurate and telling of what actually happened in the game. Ramsey drove us from the two and gave us the field position advantage back. While we didn't score on that drive, we did gain an edge in field position which is critical for a team that doesn't score.
Ramsey should start, Brunell bounced another pass to a receiver, lofted two balls up in the air, one was actually picked and fortunately for us was called back, tripped and fell, failed to score a touchdown, and waited so long to get the ball to ey in the end zone that he had to throw the ball down so that ey even had a shot to catch it. ey was standing in the end zone by himself for a long time before Brunell finally looked his way. With Brunell, the season will be as it was last year. What are we going to do if a team is able to score 14 points against us? Brunell can't help us. Other teams will again stack the box and make it difficult for our running game to get going and Brunell can't stretch the field. I just wish Gibbs would't be so in love with Brunell so he could see that if we want to go 6-10 again, the Brunell is the man, if we want to have a chance to score more than 9 points, Ramsey gives us the best chance to do that.
The question was if he was 100% ready and that IMO means Joe will go with Ramsey.
The first interception was thrown by Ransey BUT why are we throwing there? Gibbs needs to use Ramsey better and he needs to get his play callers to be more conservative with both this defence and this not yet adequate passing offense. I am encouraged by the running game and think that as we progress a little more our passing game will improve too but we need to get the defences thinking about our run game first and then start to use both the short and long passing game.
If Ramsey is ready we will see him on Monday. Jansen will not let anyone by on his side again.
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
Honestly to me it seems Ramsey really has the deck stacked againt him. Gibbs want Brunell to start (obvious from the post game press conference), I mean he was cleared togo back into the game so I dont see how a week of rest will make his neck any worse.
As for the pick he threw I dont place the blame all on his shoulders. I mean its a bonehead route 2 receivers (the only two in the package) going to the same spot on the field and bringing the entire bears secondary (ok not entire but at least 4 were in the vicinity). Now i dont know if the inside receiver was suppose to run toward the middle of the field or if the outside guy is suppose to clear the area but it just looked like a bunch of amatuers playing out there on that play...
crazyhorse1 wrote:Actually, I don't remember Ramsey making a crucial error. His interception went for naught, but might have been crucial, I guess. Let's see. That's one. Brunell had two. Two is more than one.
Sigh...there you go again...Ramsey had 2 turnovers, one in the red zone, while Brunell had 0 turnovers, and his "crucial mistake" completion to ey set up the winning field goal. Guess that "went for naught", whatever that means...
Last edited by Wysocki on Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
At the time I mentioned "this is a win/win place on the field. If we do not get a first down we should end up with their offense backed up. We just do not need to take a chance here." And they send that play in! Now I saw the pass go straight to that DB - it was a terrible decision to throw it at the guy by Ramsey and there was no one close with a white jersey! BUT it should not have happened!
I do not think Gibbs called that - I know he has final control over the plays but I do not think he will let that happen again.
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
die cowboys die wrote:ok, all of this ridiculousness seriously needs to stop. brunell should start over ramsey? WHY??? sure, brunell looked OK today. he looked like a solid backup, and MAYBE even a decent starter. but did he look that much better than ramsey??? NO!!!
i taped the game (yes, tape, i am ghetto and don't have TiVo) and am watching it again right now. ramsey looked awful on his 1st series. but on the second series, so far he has done the following:
1: out of his own endzone, hit moss for 12 yards on 3rd and 11.
2: hit patten for 14 on 3rd and 7-- which was negated by an absurd "illegal shift" penalty.
3: hit moss for 14 on the ensuing 3rd and 12.
4: hit portis right between the numbers on 2nd down. it would have put us at least 3rd and 2, but portis dropped it, leaving us in 3rd and long. the bears were then able to go for the big blitz, and ramsey fumbled trying to wait too long to make a play (jansen fell on the ball and recovered it).
on ramsey's 3rd series:
1. hit cooley for 9 yards on 3rd and 2
2. on the next play, threw a 25 yard pass to moss in stride, allowing him to run for 30 extra yards
***NOTE: the next two plays were substantial runs-- ramsey's effective passing forced the bears to stop keying in on the run***
3. the most important thing he did all day: on 2nd and goal, there was no one open and HE PULLED THE BALL DOWN AND RAN WITH IT. he didn't get very far but he didn't take a bad sack, and didn't try to force a throw. HE LEARNED FROM HIS MISTAKE EARLIER IN THE GAME.
4. on the next play, he threw a perfect TD pass to cooley. i have watched the replay over and over again in slow motion, frame by frame, and people there is absolutely no question that the defender initiated the contact with cooley. he wrapped him up and cooley was simply trying to push the guy back off of him so he could actually catch the ball. so as far as i'm concerned, this counts as a TD for ramsey in terms of evaluating his play. note that ramsey's pass brought cooley INTO the endzone, unlike brunell's goal-line pass to cooley later in the game that didn't quite make it.
4. on the NEXT play after being robbed of a TD by the refs, ramsey was absolutely crushed in the neck with an insanely illegal "clothesline" tackle. i'm sorry but you can't count this as a fumble against ramsey! no one would be able to hold onto the ball being hit like that-- most other QBs wouldn't even have gotten up! and i don't want to hear any of this BS that it wasn't an illegal hit, that it was in the chest, not the neck. i have it on frame-by-frame on my VCR right now and his arm is literally swung across ramsey's neck. this guy will probably be fined at least $10,000. we should've had a 1st down within the 5.
so let's recap: 1st SERIES: INT 2nd SERIES: 50 yard drive from the 1 yard line-- including 3 great throws on 3rd down 3rd SERIES: 90 yard TD drive-- including a clutch 3rd down conversion, a 52 yard pass to moss, and great red zone play
THAT, my friends, is the kind of playing that will get us a win against the cowboys. after that 1st series he looked VERY GOOD.
so no, brunell did not somehow magically make the O-line better and the running game better. RAMSEY DID, by making chicago pay for keying in on the run.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank God we were playing the Bears. There offense was crappy all game long. If we played a team with a top 15 offense we would have lost.
crazyhorse1 wrote:...his stupid third down pass to ey on the one with goal to go was a classic bonehead play, especially with ST all alone in the end zone.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I'm sure that play was designed for a full-time player on DEFENSE, as opposed to our Pro-Bowl-bound TE or other receivers on the play.
As a matter of fact, we should insert ST as our #1 WR, right?
If Ramsey doesn't start, things are just plain dirty here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You can't do epic **** with basic people." - DJax "We're on the rise, man, whether you're on the train or not." - Josh Norman
If Ramsey is able to play, he will. There's no way JGibbs is going to mess up the depth chart in one week. He's loyal and that will be shown in week two. Unless the docs say Patrick can't play, we'll be seeing him on the field in Dallas.
"I was on the sideline and guys were talking about the score, and then it hit me -- we won by 21. I came in the locker room and I yelled it out, and immediately I just kind of broke down in tears. Because I miss Sean, you know."
Redskins Rule wrote:If we played a team with a top 15 offense we would have lost.
I'm sure the defense appreciates your vote of confidence.
Its not about the defense.....its about our offense scoring points. I have my doubts that Mark Brunnell can do that.
Besides, Mark Brunnell had his chance last year and he blew it. Give Ramsey his chance this year.
I agree with giving PRamsey the chance. BUT we must agree that Brunell is not the same player as he was last year. In my mind, he did an excellent job of replacing Patrick yesterday. He had some real nice, smart plays.
"I was on the sideline and guys were talking about the score, and then it hit me -- we won by 21. I came in the locker room and I yelled it out, and immediately I just kind of broke down in tears. Because I miss Sean, you know."
Redskins Rule wrote:If we played a team with a top 15 offense we would have lost.
I'm sure the defense appreciates your vote of confidence.
Its not about the defense.....its about our offense scoring points. I have my doubts that Mark Brunnell can do that.
Besides, Mark Brunnell had his chance last year and he blew it. Give Ramsey his chance this year.
Brunell's undefeated THIS YEAR. He has not thrown an INT THIS YEAR. He is healthy THIS YEAR. He runs the team better THIS YEAR.
Meanwhile, Ramsey had the entire offseason to work the kinks out of his system. While he improved some between the last PS game and yesterday's contest, it still appears that he's not ready/capable to LEAD this team. Mark does.
Brunell didn't look that much different than he did last year. His first pass he bounced to the receiver, his long passes were lofted up for grabs, and he completed 3 passes to receivers on the line of scrimmage. He made some "smart" plays last year too, like throwing the ball away or completing a 5 yard pass. But again, he only threw for 70 yards in three quarters and didn't get the ball in the end zone. Looks just like last year to me.
kspeed10 wrote:...he only threw for 70 yards in three quarters and didn't get the ball in the end zone. Looks just like last year to me.
Had Moss not been interfered with and caught the ball, Brunell's line would have read 9/14 for 106 yds. That would not have been bad, would it?
You can't have it both ways, and discount what Ramsey "would've done" (like score two touchdowns at least -- one was a suspect PI against cooley), and then hail what Brunell didn't do (like throw the ball in a place where ey could've caught it from within the endzone, or throw it to an open ST at the back pylon) as if he did it!
by your logic ('THIS YEAR'), the first int brunell throws, he should be replaced with....someone else (after all, ramsey had his one quarter shot, and he blew it, so he's done). i wonder if jeff george is still available?
and, if moss had not been interfered with, and the ball was still intercepted, brunell's line would have been 8/15 for 70 yards and a pick. that's a qb rating of 38.2.
I'm a jack of all trades, the master of three
Rockin' the tables, rockin' the mikes, rockin' the young lay-dees.
Gibbs will start Ramsey as long as he is healthy. If Patrick beats the pukes, he has job security for this season, if not, all the people that were booing yesterday will be calling for Brunell. Ironically, these are probably the same people who were calling for Ramsey early on last year.
As far as yesterday: We won, with our starting QB knocked out before halftime and some really bad calls by the Refs. In years past, these things would equal a loss for the Skins. So lets just try and be happy for a week =)
cvillehog wrote:You can't have it both ways, and discount what Ramsey "would've done" (like score two touchdowns at least -- one was a suspect PI against cooley), and then hail what Brunell didn't do (like throw the ball in a place where ey could've caught it from within the endzone, or throw it to an open ST at the back pylon) as if he did it!
I never claimed Brunell was gonna challenge Peyton Manning's single season mark from a year ago, but I did say that he gives us the best chance at winning.
The odds of turning the ball over are clearly against Patrick. There's no guarantee that Ramsey scores "at least" 2 TDs (Based on what, his combined 2 TDS during the entirepreseason?? ), but the chances of his turning the ball over are greater this year than Brunell's.
I have no problem with Patrick starting, as a matter of fact, if he gets his act together, it can only benefit THE TEAM. However, an injured Patrick --or an indecisive Patrick Ramsey-- SHOULD NOT be at the helm of a team that intends to contend in what looks like a much improved division this year.
Why are you arguing against arguments I didn't make?
It's usless to the discussion to do that.
We get it! You like Brunell. Might I point out that maybe you aren't the best judge of who should be our QB? I mean, being the sole member of the Danny Woeful fan club.
cvillehog wrote:Why are you arguing against arguments I didn't make?
It's usless to the discussion to do that.
My bad.
]We get it! You like Brunell. Might I point out that maybe you aren't the best judge of who should be our QB? I mean, being the sole member of the Danny Woeful fan club.
Wrong. I'm a fan of Wuerffel, the man and Brunell, the QB.
Plus, I'm not the only one who sees Brunell as the better option THIS YEAR. Had this happened last year...maybe your argument would have some legs to it. This year, though, I don't think so.
ey on the one with goal to go was a classic bonehead play, especially with ST all alone in the end zone.
