Whose Call Is It ?

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:54 am

Actually it's not really speaking theoreticlly. This is the same theory used in bone marrow transplants. They have discovered that taking your own bown marrow and injecting it into your vien can regenerate heart tissue. This has been done. It's worked. I understand because of the implications that occur when regenerating or creating organs we have to take it slow, to make sure some crazy scientist doesn't create a whole person using this technology.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:45 pm

So far, the majority of voters on these boards has selected the husband as the one who makes the call.
This means, Terri dies.
Sadly, as we speak, she's starving to death. If we were going to that route anyway, why not some more efficient manner of euthanasia ?
Or are they too busy making sneakers over there ?

hailskins666 · Post by **hailskins666** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:00 am

i don't really have a vote as to who has the say so. i just say pull the plug. it's what we did with my 82 year old grandma. she couldn't walk or barley talk from the first two strokes, after the third she was brain dead, sure we could have wasted time and even more money to keep her on the machines, but it was fate, and her time. she said when she was younger to never let her live on like that. we've all come to accept it. we are all better for it, including grandma, who is no longer suffering. i'm sure she ended up where she wanted to be.

this chic is just as messed up, so its the right thing to do.

personal request. i state it here at thehogs.net, if i ever end up in the situation to be a human vegetable, someone please do me the favor and pull the plug. i'd prefer it to be redeemedskin, send me 'home' dude. my blood is on your shoulders. it's what i want if it were to come down to it.

welch · Post by **welch** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:53 am

I'm glad we're back to Terrie Schiavo, instead of side issues.

From what I understand:

- she has no rational, thinking part of her brain

- there is no medical theory that suggests she might be able to recover her brain using any techniques known today. Regenerating brain cells is an interesting thought, but I don't know even a tiny bit of the science required to evaluate it.

- The little common sense I have tells me that if, somehow, she grew a new brain, she would be a different person. That's a weird thought, but so unlikely that I'll leave it to philosophers who speculate on the mind. (Calling FanFromAnnapolis: Tell us about Gilbert Ryle and John Searle and George Lakoff). And it seems irrlevant.

- in her current state, she requires constant maintenance care. The feeding tube went right to her stomach because she can't swallow. She has to be turned every few hours to minimize the growth of sores. Even at that, her body is decaying because she can't move: nothing works.

- seen from the outside, this is horrible, and endless. From inside? With no brain function, she probably is not aware of anything. It is probaly a similar to a coma, except, if Civille is right, she has no brain even to be comatose.

- her eyes are open, and she makes some automatic response to some stimuli. This sometimes suggests life.

Her husband wants to remove the feeding tubes and let her die. He probably knows better than anyone what she would want. I see no evidence that he is in it for money, lust, greed, or other personally evil motives.

Her parents want to block this, and, as a parent, I would fight just as hard as they have if it were my daughter and I could look into her eyes.

There is evidence, but evidence doesn't make choices. We draw up careful rules of decision-making (hello again, FFA), but, I think, the various ethical systems are wrong when they promise to hand us the answer to a moral question. We have to make the choice, rather than adding plusses and minuses and letting the system tell us the answer. It's like pretending that we have a Delphic Oracle that gives clear answers. {The Oracle was famous for giving answers that could be interpreted in many ways, like the witches in MacBeth, so the Oracle was never wrong. Just misleading.]

My thought? If someone wants to keep her alive -- like Governor Bush -- let them. Muster the resources, devote the resources, and so be it.

Today, we probably pay for the extraordinary care she receives. She is probably on supplimental Medicare, so our taxes pay; and the money has to be taken from others.

Which others?

(a) the uninsured. I went to the emergency room at Presbyterian Hospital, which has a luxury side where wealthy patient, such as Bill Clinton, are treated, and a neighborhood side where uninsured people use the ER as their primary care physician. The result, of course, is that real emergency cases don't get seen. I had stomach surgery the week before, and suddenly the "wound" began to pour out blood. The Presbyterian ER waiting room is about the size of my living room, and was filled. Ten people stood dismally in a line to see the triage nurse, the one triage nurse. If I had been shot, I'd have come in by ambulance and treated immediately; as it was, I gave up, and went down to another hospital that had an hour wait, but more space, higher ceilings, and enough chairs. So the money could, if used thoughtfully, move uninsured people out of ER's and into normal clinics. No, the money for Terry's care could not do that, but the people organizing for her could make it happen.

(b) the elderly. The various levels of government have steadily cut back funding for senior centers and rehab programs, even though more people live longer, and continue to have strokes. Social workers pull incredible tricks to find loopholes that allow funding for the care each of their patients need.

OK. I'm done talking.

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:59 am

Husband, he is legally something.

REDEEMEDSKIN · Post by **REDEEMEDSKIN** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:19 am

hailskins666 wrote:...someone please do me the favor and pull the plug. i'd prefer it to be redeemedskin, send me 'home' dude. my blood is on your shoulders. it's what i want if it were to come down to it.

It's funny you mention that, since, if I don't tell you about the redeeming blood of Jesus, I will be held accountable for your blood. 'Tis written.

Just know that i won't pull the plug on you until I get my chance to share the Gospel with you. Thenk you can most certainly "go home".

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:40 am

REDEEMEDSKIN wrote:Just know that i won't pull the plug on you until I get my chance to share the Gospel with you. Thenk you can most certainly "go home".

he'll die before the plug is even pulled then... :-"

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:40 am

Ok I have a new theory here. Why don't we use her situation to learn. Why don't they attempt stem cell research with her? If I were her parent and it gave her a chance for hope I'd do it in a heartbeat.

REDEEMEDSKIN · Post by **REDEEMEDSKIN** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:06 pm

Sadly, it looks like the courts have made the decision. The rights of those young kids from the Orient are now legally protected in this country. :cry:

U.S. Supreme Court rejects Schiavo parents' appeal
State judge who ordered feeding tube removal gets case again

Thursday, March 24, 2005 Posted: 10:56 AM EST (1556 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Supreme Court on Thursday rejected an appeal by the parents of Terri Schiavo to have their severely brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube reinserted.

The court, without comment, refused to intervene after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals twice Wednesday turned down a plea from the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

Read the rest here.

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:26 pm

welch wrote:I'm glad we're back to Terrie Schiavo, instead of side issues.

From what I understand:

- she has no rational, thinking part of her brain

She is like a baby. She shows awareness but can't feed herself. She isn't terminal. She breaths on her own. She smiles when her mom kisses her and she can follow objects with her eyes. A nurse that took care of her said that she as mumbled words.

- in her current state, she requires constant maintenance care. The feeding tube went right to her stomach because she can't swallow.

She can swallow. She doesn't drool. She swallows a liter of her own saliva everyday. She just can't feed herself. Babies can't feed themselves. Old people with severe dementia can't feed themselves. Does that mean we should put them out of their misery by killing them?

She has to be turned every few hours to minimize the growth of sores. Even at that, her body is decaying because she can't move: nothing works.

That's because her evil husband wants her dead. He won't allow her to have a chance at rehabilitation. So how does one know if she can't improve? She hasn't been given a chance. Every time the parents wanted her to participate in an activity, the husband would block it.

seen from the outside, this is horrible, and endless. From inside? With no brain function, she probably is not aware of anything.

I know most people would like to make themselves feel better about the situation by telling themselves she does not feel the pain of starvation, but the fact is no one knows. I know when I watched my grand dad starve to death, he was in agony.

It is probaly a similar to a coma, except, if Civille is right, she has no brain even to be comatose

. If cville is right? To me he is flat out wrong.

her eyes are open, and she makes some automatic response to some stimuli. This sometimes suggests life.

That's right. It does suggest life. Why take it?

Her husband wants to remove the feeding tubes and let her die. He probably knows better than anyone what she would want. I see no evidence that he is in it for money, lust, greed, or other personally evil motives.

You must not be following the case very closely. He didn't claim Terri wanted to die until 7 years after she collapsed. He didn't start lobbying for her death until he won a law suit that awarded tons of cash. Why does everyone here think the husband should have all the say so in this particular case? They were only married for 4 years in their early 20's. Geez, I think of my ex-girlfriend I dated for 3 years when we were in our 20's. We weren't married but we lived together. I don't even talk to her anymore. It's kind of disturbing to think that if we were married, that she would have the say so over my own blood. Who in there right mind would want their estranged spouse making decisions about your life over your own flesh and blood? Some of the friends that knew Terri and her husband has said he was controlling and abusive towards her.

My thought? If someone wants to keep her alive -- like Governor Bush -- let them. Muster the resources, devote the resources, and so be it.

I agree. She has a family that wants to take care of her. What is the downside of that? Why is her husband fighting so hard to let her die?

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:30 pm

Brandon,
You continue to post misinformation straight from Fox News and provide no supporting material. Why don't you ease up on the conjecture and get some facts?

You've passed off as "evidence" that a so-called Nobel-nominated neurologist said she isn't PSV. But that is BS. There is no such thing as a Nobel nominee. Nominations are secret, and the list of 3000 or so people that can make recommendations for awards does not include the Republican Congressman from Florida who wrote a letter to the Nobel committee recommeding this doctor. A doctor who, I might add, has had his license suspended in the past for lying about the services he offers.

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:33 pm

actually last night with that greta van sustran chick.. she had a reporter that sat in with terry for an hour.. she completey contradicted everything that all these people have been saying to support that terry isn't in a vegetative state... she also said she intervied the nurses in the hospital and she did say that the husband was demanding... he demanded that she be bathed EVERY day not just everyother day and that her hair be kept combed... don't believe all the propaganda BS that sean hannity spews.

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:36 pm

cvillehog wrote:Brandon,
You continue to post misinformation straight from Fox News and provide no supporting material. Why don't you ease up on the conjecture and get some facts?

Why don't you provide some facts? The one fact that you provided "startle reflex" actually supported my argument. You didn't even post any supporting material on startle reflex. I did. You haven't provided anything. Your only rebuttal is get the facts. That is your favorite phrase. It doesn't matter what the subject is. You simply say "get the facts". The only person that I've seen on the news that sounds exactly like you in this situation is Al Franken, a flaming liberal.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:38 pm

Brandon777 wrote:
cvillehog wrote:Brandon,
You continue to post misinformation straight from Fox News and provide no supporting material. Why don't you ease up on the conjecture and get some facts?
Why don't you provide some facts. The one fact that you provided "startle reflex" actually supported my argument. You didn't even post any supporting material on startle reflex. I did. You haven't provided anything. Your only rebuttal is get the facts. That is your favorite phrase. It doesn't matter what the subject is. You simply say "get the facts". The only person that I've seen on the news that sounds exactly like you in this situation is Al Franken, a flaming liberal.

Wrong. The text you posted about startle reflex did not directly address this case, and you failed to link it to this case. There are a variety of reflexive actions at work here.

Redskins Rule · Post by **Redskins Rule** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:39 pm

Brandon777 wrote:That's because her evil husband wants her dead. He won't allow her to have a chance at rehabilitation. So how does one know if she can't improve? She hasn't been given a chance. Every time the parents wanted her to participate in an activity, the husband would block it.

Hey Brandon.....that evil husband tried for a real long time to get her rehabilitaded. I mean...didn't this 'accident' happen back in 1990? Thats something like 15 years ago.

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:43 pm

Redskins Rule wrote:Hey Brandon.....that evil husband tried for a real long time to get her rehabilitaded. I mean...didn't this 'accident' happen back in 1990? Thats something like 15 years ago.

Yes. For 15 years she has be kept in a room, not allowed to participate in rehab because of her husband.

Well I have to go. I'm tired of going back and fourth will liberals. I'm just glad that liberals are out of power now. Maybe there is hope for this country.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:45 pm

Brandon777 wrote:
Redskins Rule wrote:Hey Brandon.....that evil husband tried for a real long time to get her rehabilitaded. I mean...didn't this 'accident' happen back in 1990? Thats something like 15 years ago.
Yes. For 15 years she has be kept in a room, not allowed to participate in rehab because of her husband.

Well I have to go. I'm tired of going back and fourth will liberals. I'm just glad that liberals are out of power now. Maybe there is hope for this country.

This isn't about liberal or conservative.

This is about critical thinking versus knee-jerk uninformed reactions.

Did you even read any of the links that were posted here?

The Schindlers are the ones dragging this on and causing this whole series of events, aided by politicians looking out for their own interests.

November 1992

The jury in the medical malpractice trial against another of Terri’s physicians awards more than one million dollars. In the end, after attorneys’ fees and other expenses, Michael Schiavo received about $300,000 and about $750,000 was put in a trust fund specifically for Terri Schiavo’s medical care.

February 14, 1993

Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers have a falling-out over the course of therapy for Terri Schiavo; Michael Schiavo claims that the Schindlers demand that he share the malpractice money with them.

July 29, 1993

Schindlers attempt to remove Michael Schiavo as Terri Schiavo’s guardian; the court later dismisses the suit.

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:46 pm

Brandon777 wrote:
Redskins Rule wrote:Hey Brandon.....that evil husband tried for a real long time to get her rehabilitaded. I mean...didn't this 'accident' happen back in 1990? Thats something like 15 years ago.
Yes. For 15 years she has be kept in a room, not allowed to participate in rehab because of her husband.

Well I have to go. I'm tired of going back and fourth will liberals. I'm just glad that liberals are out of power now. Maybe there is hope for this country.

yeah how did we ever exist with the budget surplus that clinton left us...oh horror!!
:roll:

Redskins Rule · Post by **Redskins Rule** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:50 pm

I just have to laugh....Brandon posts somethings that just makes me laugh.

I needed a good laugh today Brandon. Thank you very much!

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:51 pm

Also, Brandon, "back and forth" implies that your posts have contributed something other than misinformation to the discussion, which they haven't.

Brandon777 · Post by **Brandon777** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:51 pm

patjam77 wrote:
Brandon777 wrote:
Redskins Rule wrote:Hey Brandon.....that evil husband tried for a real long time to get her rehabilitaded. I mean...didn't this 'accident' happen back in 1990? Thats something like 15 years ago.
Yes. For 15 years she has be kept in a room, not allowed to participate in rehab because of her husband.

Well I have to go. I'm tired of going back and fourth will liberals. I'm just glad that liberals are out of power now. Maybe there is hope for this country.

yeah how did we ever exist with the budget surplus that clinton left us...oh horror!!

There should never be a surplus. That simply means that the goverment is taking too much money from the people.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:55 pm

It's too bad they don't live in Texas.

With the cap on malpractice awards and the Futile Care Act (which Bush signed into law), the state would've pulled the plug on her long ago and all of this misery would be over.

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:58 pm

cvillehog wrote:It's too bad they don't live in Texas.

With the cap on malpractice awards and the Futile Care Act (which Bush signed into law), the state would've pulled the plug on her long ago and all of this misery would be over.

just stop cville... it's no use. some don't know when they are beat.

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:00 pm

patjam77 wrote:
cvillehog wrote:It's too bad they don't live in Texas.

With the cap on malpractice awards and the Futile Care Act (which Bush signed into law), the state would've pulled the plug on her long ago and all of this misery would be over.

just stop cville... it's no use. some don't know when they are beat.

I just want to see him admit he was wrong at least about the so-called nobel nominated doctor. Then I will be satisfied.

Although, I suppose it is clear to everyone from his posts that he is not speaking from an informed perspective on this matter (or on economics for that matter).

On the issue of the refused swallowing tests - I have to quote from page 11 of (guadian ad lidem) Dr. Jay Wolfson's report:

The clinical records within the massive case file indicate that Theresa was not responsive to neurological and swallowing tests. She received regular and intense physical, occupational and speech therapies.

By the way, 20,000 people died today of extreme poverty (worldwide). Source: Time Magazine

cvillehog · Post by **cvillehog** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:18 pm

"Mr. Bush called Dr. Cheshire a 'renowned neurologist,' but he is not widely known in the neurology or bioethics fields. Asked about him, Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, 'Who?' Dr. Caplan continued, 'There is just no excuse for going in and making any pronouncement about the state that Terri Schiavo is in unless you're going to go in and do some form of technologically mediated scanning that would overturn what's on the record already.' Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Ms. Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts and declared her to be irredeemably brain-damaged, said, 'I have no idea who this Cheshire is,' and added: 'He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative.' He said there was no doubt that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. 'Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain,' he said. 'Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from her brain.' (source: NY Times, requires free registration)

The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Whose Call Is It ?

Who decides ?