If Pierce Leaves

coachKarl · Post by **coachKarl** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:22 am

If Pierce leaves someone else could fill the roster spot, we did sign Clifton Smith he will be a good player, and we still have Barrow, I don't think we need to panic if he signs with the Giants. Lets not break the bank to make a splash.

welch · Post by **welch** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:42 am

Williams will coach a replacement. And I'll say it: Mike Barrow is still here.

(OK: I'll pre-empt the jokes: "How can he 'still' be here when he never 'got' here to play a down?"

)

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:44 am

he is gone and it is a huge loss. i don't like people saying that we shouldnt pay him what the giants are paying him. that's bull. he is, as a previous poster noted, our play-caller, our defensive leader and a guy that played with heart. i'm sick of reading "well he only had one good year" well he had a GREAT year when he was called upon and he developed in the skins organization to be what he has become. should we pay smoot 4-5 million a year, maybe, but there is no doubt that pierce was one of the few guys on the D that should be paid that kind of money. how many of you guys have seen TO get stripped of the ball? pierce made that play. he always played with heart. yes it is true the skins need to be more financially carefully this offseason but jesus christ they couldnt lose pierce. all of you are wrong that are saying this isnt a big lose. this is huge. huge on the field and huge in the lockerroom. period.

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:50 am

welch wrote:Williams will coach a replacement. And I'll say it: Mike Barrow is still here.

(OK: I'll pre-empt the jokes: "How can he 'still' be here when he never 'got' here to play a down?" )

i think you will agree with me that it isnt very often a guy is found and developed like pierce was in this organization right? so the odds of williams finding another guy like pierce isnt in the skins favor. this was huge. don't get it twisted.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:14 am

How do you know?

And what reasons do you have for saying this?

It's not like Pierce hasn't been around for a while... he just never looked that special until Williams was using him.

Thanks for your expert opinion that 'we're all wrong'... it's posts and members like you that humble us idiots with your brilliance.

:roll:

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:15 am

BossHog wrote:How do you know?

And what reasons do you have for saying this?

It's not like Pierce hasn't been around for a while... he just never looked that special until Williams was using him.

Thanks for your expert opinion that 'we're all wrong'... it's posts and members like you that humble us idiots with your brilliance.

sorry... didn't mean to strike a nerve.

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:22 am

one other thing though. i'm sure everyone, as well as myself, was happy to see the skins sign rabach. he is a big athletic center. but i'm not sure if some of you realize that while the skins didnt sign him to as big of a contract as the giants signed pierce too those players have some things in common. BOTH didnt start the first 3 years of their careers. rabach and pierce both got their opportunites last year to start and shined. rabach and pierce both got the jobs due to injury and rabach was so good that he kept it, even when flynn got healthy for the ravens. so the idea of "well he only had one good year" works for both players but everyone is happy that we signed rabach (and well we should) but some here think pierce wasn't worth the money. everyone applauds gibbs for boths situations but i can't because for a little bit more money pierce may have been able to stay. my 2 cents.
i should have in my previous post mentioned that it was my opinion and been more sensitive with my words.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:32 am

rabach contract = 5-year $13.75 million
pierce contract = 6-year $25 million

No different? I see 11.25 million differences.

Skins71 · Post by **Skins71** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:33 am

Pat your totally wrong, pierce is our Dfensive leader ROTFALMAO

He couldn't lead our special teams when that was is role for past 3 years, I agree he is developing but there are plenty of MLBers out there that would love to play in between Lavar and Washington that we can get a decent price, and if pierce wants more than he's worth then let him go out and see how good he really is. oooo the giants yeah go play next to griesen and green good decision.

Dfensive leader ROTFALMAO

Would not have even started if Barrow was healthy!

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:34 am

Pat, your totally right---Pierce was special. On and off the field. They dont grow on trees. Everyone is in denial. Its understood though, its been a long time since weve been on this end of the free agent stick...if barrow is healthy hes more than capable..but hes NOT....Lavar's exact quote "pierce was the biggest reason for defenses success last year"....But i guess we should just dismiss this comment...I respect a alot of the opinions on this site..But right now this site has major case of---DENIAL....

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:38 am

let's just call that ball park 2 million a year... my opinion, a guy that was a probowl alternate and damn well should have been the starter for the NFC, and the heart of the skins 3rd ranked D should make 2 more million a year than rabach. i don't think that is a big difference for a guy that is young and good. 2 things the skins need. isn't that why they got rabach?

Skins71 · Post by **Skins71** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:55 am

MEZZSKIN wrote:Pat, your totally right---Pierce was special. On and off the field. They dont grow on trees. Everyone is in denial. Its understood though, its been a long time since weve been on this end of the free agent stick...if barrow is healthy hes more than capable..but hes NOT....Lavar's exact quote "pierce was the biggest reason for defenses success last year"....But i guess we should just dismiss this comment...I respect a alot of the opinions on this site..But right now this site has major case of---DENIAL....

Then maybe Lavar can pay him his money if he is the reason our defense did so well! I thought Greg Williams was the reason our Dfense did so well, but now I am convinced, Pierce is the heart and sole of our dfense might as well give up next season now!

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:15 am

YOUR RIGHT SKIN 71....Like i said well just dismiss the comment as stupidity..

doctordrew · Post by **doctordrew** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:23 am

Gentlemen, I think we all agree that Pierce was a great player last year. The half of you that are saying the rest of us are in denial, well that is not exactly true. The 'Skins front office is finally practicing fiscal responsibility (as Boss mentions a lot). Pierce was a pro-bowl alternate last year, but we can't afford to give up a $6.5 million signing bonus to someone who could very well have been a "product of the system". Was he the heart and sole of the defense? Yes, last year he was, arguably. However, there were many injuries last year, and this year new people will step up. Arrington, Bowen, maybe even Sean Taylor might be the heart and sole of the defense next year. The patriots released Lawyor Milloy (the heart and sole of their defense) 2 season ago, and they won the super bowl. The offsesaon is about business, not emotions. And even though I am really sad to see Pierce leave, fiscal responsibility is more prudent.

redskins12287 · Post by **redskins12287** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:28 am

I like Pierce, but i think he only did so well because of G.W.'s coaching and system. He is not an increadibly gifted athlete, and no way the best tackler on that D. I would love to see us re-sign him, but if we cant aford him, we cant aford him. Simple as that. He will not be nearly as succesful in NY or anywhere else.

I think we'll be just fine.

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:28 am

Fiscal responsibilty???...Guys c'mon!..they didnt sign him because THERE STRAPPED!...Its not fiscal resposibilty. They couldn t sign him because we went out there last year and plopped a boat load of money on a washed up QB and A 33 year old middle linebacker with more wear and tear then dirt race car......THATS WHY!.....not because were fiscally responsible.ITS BECAUSE WERE FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBILE!...thats why we lost him..no other reason!

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:32 am

MEZZSKIN wrote:Fiscal responsibilty???...Guys c'mon!..they didnt sign him because THERE STRAPPED!...Its not fiscal resposibilty. They couldn t sign him because we went out there last year and plopped a boat load of money on a washed up QB and A 33 year old middle linebacker with more wear and tear then dirt race car......THATS WHY!.....not because were fiscally responsible.ITS BECAUSE WERE FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBILE!...thats why we lost him..no other reason!

... and so your solution is to continue to make the same mistake and overpay players rather than try and stop the madness?

I agree that this isn't Pierce's fault that we don't have as much cap space as some... and that he played great... still doesn't make him worth a top 10 LB paycheque in my opinion.

You have to start somewhere with fiscal responsibility. I think that's what we are seeing.

My 2 cents

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:41 am

what im saying yes your right we couldnt sign them because of all our other madness signings..But thats not called fiscal resposiblity...its called WERE STRAPPED...AND NOW WE PAY DEARLY thats whats its called ..WE LOSE HEART SOULD PLAYERS....pIERCE THEN SMOOT...Guys that bleed our uniform guys that grew up in our system...Guys that lived thru the sames losses we lived thru..but there leaving because we signed MICHAEL BARROW!!!!....Because we signed MARK BRUNELL !..(TO CONTRACT THAT STILL DEFIES LOGIC)...were not dealing with a new redskin philosophy here guys...were just paying for the one weve had and continue to have

pjp5 · Post by **pjp5** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:43 am

Hey all,

I think we all are in a bit of denial. Pierce was good. He probably will not be a Hall of Fame Linebacker, but he played awefully well in Williams system. IF the Trotter experience has taught us anything it is that some players are only good in one system. Trotter, played like a BUM with washington. But he was a probowler (should have been a reserve behind pierce) with Philly. Pierce was a leader out there, and will be missed.

I also can't help but worry that if we lost Pierce and Smoot the D will lose more then tackles and INT's. Gibbs always talks about "true redskins" in my opinion those are two TRUE REDSKINS. I hope they know what they are doing.

MEZZSKIN · Post by **MEZZSKIN** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:45 am

totally agree.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:52 am

...and I'll say it again. if you want to stop the bleeding that you're talking about, then you have to start somewhere.

What can I say, I, and obviously Joe Gibbs and the Redskins, don't think Pierce was worth the contract that he signed. If they thought he was, they would have signed him. It's not like we don't have the space. We may not have enough to throw it around, but we do have enough to sign a few more guys. obviously the Redskins just felt that they needed to spend their money more wisely.

I'm not for one second arguing that it is NOT exactly why you stated -- past contracts to busts -- but you have to try and start somewhere. And that means NOT overpaying whenever you can.

And geepers, we're two days into free agency... there's a draft and a June 1st cut coming, isn't it a little bit naive to not think that there is a whole plan in place... one that can't possibly spell itself out in March?

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:53 am

MEZZSKIN wrote:Fiscal responsibilty???...Guys c'mon!..they didnt sign him because THERE STRAPPED!...Its not fiscal resposibilty. They couldn t sign him because we went out there last year and plopped a boat load of money on a washed up QB and A 33 year old middle linebacker with more wear and tear then dirt race car......THATS WHY!.....not because were fiscally responsible.ITS BECAUSE WERE FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBILE!...thats why we lost him..no other reason!

Compare this year's 1st day of FA to the 1st day and years past and you would understand why members are calling it Fiscal responsibilty.

Years ago if it had been determined that a Center would be our first FA signing then the cap hit would have been at least 2.8 million but it's less than half of that this year

You say that we can't resign AP because of past spending... don't believe the hype. As someone noted in another thread(BH I think)... if the Skins are so "FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBILE" why haven't we blown up our roster like other team ie. NE basically cut Brown and let Law walk, there starting guard is in Cleveland now. New England is said to be the most responsible team in the league. other team were over the cap on March 1st and had to dump players they wanted to keep. The Skins were 7.6 million under the cap on March 1st

The deal the Gints offered AP was 26 million for 6 years with 6.5 million in bonus money. That's 1.3M SB plus this years salary (avg is 3.25M but if back loaded it wont be that high the first few years) that would hit the cap this year, we have the room to match this offer to keep our starting MLB if we feel we must have him. the Skins don't feel that way.

Then again nothing has been signed yet

Skins71 · Post by **Skins71** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:09 pm

you are exactly right niksder, we can sign him, if we felt he was worth it, our Dfensive leader come on guys, washington, smoot, springs, griff, wynn all leaders on Dfense. Just cause a guy calls the play like most MLB's do that doesn't make him a leader it is part of the positions responsibilities to make calls and determine strength of coverages. We need to sure up our Cb situation first, MLB will not be that hard to fill. still have barrow, and there are other proven MLB's out there that can do just as well if not better. It's a loss of our own talent but that should not be such a surprise to us, Will Not Affect This D!!!!

patjam77 · Post by **patjam77** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:22 pm

pjp5 wrote:Hey all,

I think we all are in a bit of denial. Pierce was good. He probably will not be a Hall of Fame Linebacker, but he played awefully well in Williams system. IF the Trotter experience has taught us anything it is that some players are only good in one system. Trotter, played like a BUM with washington. But he was a probowler (should have been a reserve behind pierce) with Philly. Pierce was a leader out there, and will be missed.

I also can't help but worry that if we lost Pierce and Smoot the D will lose more then tackles and INT's. Gibbs always talks about "true redskins" in my opinion those are two TRUE REDSKINS. I hope they know what they are doing.

dead on!!

oafusp · Post by **oafusp** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:33 pm

MEZZSKIN wrote:Fiscal responsibilty???...Guys c'mon!..they didnt sign him because THERE STRAPPED!

STRAPPED? I don't think $9 million under the cap is considerred strapped. If you want strapped see Titans, Packers, and Bucs.

Lets just say the Skins are being "frugal".

i am cool with it...it is only 1 day into free agency....there are other LB's out there that can come in and play "the system"....then there is the draft....then there is the June 1st cuts when a ton of veterans become available.

PLUS, Pierce has not signed the Giants offer yet...he just might come back. We're in denial? Just chill, you're having an anxiety attack over a middle line backer.