west coast offense

[skinpride1]

I want to hear some opinons on the so called west coast offense. Are any teams playing a true west coast style offense anymore?Has the west coast style just been split into many types of different offenses.Would you consider gibbs offense a type of west coaststyle.Would you define it as using the quarterbacks feet to the receivers route,so timing can be sensed,or is the west coast a thing of the past because of the teams using it in different ways.What do you think,should teams call it something else, because it's not truley west coast.

[die cowboys die]

as i understand it, the "West Coast" offense is built around the short passing game, with an emphasis on timing and "RAC" (run after catch).

the idea is that there are always small holes in any defense, and usually the defense will make those holes be up close within the 5-10 yard range, rather than expose an open area deep that could result in a huge gain.

so the QB is supposed to throw one of those holes while the WR is running toward it, that way the WR and ball arrive at the same time, hitting him in stride, and he can run forward for a few (or a lot) more yards after the short pass.


gibbs did throw a lot of short passes this season, but in general i don't think he runs a west coast style offense. gibbs prefers to pound the ball with the running game, which makes the defense bring additional men up close to stop the run. that sets up the deep play-action pass-- all the defenders are up close to stop the run so you throw it way downfield and go for the homerun. (but only AFTER you establish the run- so it's not like spurrier's idea of just throwing deep all day long even though there are 100 defenders back there).

one could argue that the West Coast offense uses the short passes for the same purpose-- to bring the defense up close so you can throw it over their head. true, any good offense will take its shots downfield. so perhaps you could make the distinction that the west coast offense substitutes that short passing game in place of a running game to some extent.

hope that made any sense.

[Redskin in Canada]

Joe Gibbs' teams have never played a West Coast offense.

http://www.westcoastoffense.com/

http://www.footballproject.com/story.php?storyid=61

[welch]

Thanks for the sources, RiC. (I would never have had the patience to track them down!)

Check your Washington Post Redskins book. I remember something in it that suggested the mid-60's Redskins ran the "west coast" offense under Otto Graham...long before anyone thought to name it.

Of course, Otto didn't care about the defense, thought the run was boring, and didn't waste much effort on the OL, either, so the Redskins always finished about 6 wins and 8 losses, but it made me think better of him.

[Smithian]

We didn't run the West Coast... We just stunk.

[Redskin in Canada]

Thanks for the sources, RiC. (I would never have had the patience to track them down!).

I am not a fan of that system either but I found the "evolution" chart to be interesting.

Check your Washington Post Redskins book. I remember something in it that suggested the mid-60's Redskins ran the "west coast" offense under Otto Graham...long before anyone thought to name it..

I would not go that far. I give Bill Walsh a bit more credit than that.

But obviously there is rarely something coming out of nothing. Bill Walsh was influenced by others. I still feel he was an innovator (not that I like the system but it is innovation nevertheless).

[BossHog]

I would not go that far. I give Bill Walsh a bit more credit than that.

But obviously there is rarely something coming out of nothing. Bill Walsh was influenced by others. I still feel he was an innovator (not that I like the system but it is innovation nevertheless).

That's the view of Mike McCormack, Graham's offensive line coach at the time and later a head coach with three NFL teams and a prime builder of the expansion Carolina Panthers in the mid-1990s. "That West Coast offense everybody talks about [that started with coach Bill Walsh and the San Francisco 49ers] — Otto was running it in the late `60s," McCormack said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... ges/68.htm

[Redskin in Canada]

I stand by my two statements in the post above.

Otto Graham's offense of the late 60's was not Bill Walsh's offense of the 80's. Nothing comes from nothing but there is a huge leap from one offense to another.

Some of the Walsh plays simply did not exist under Graham. These are plays created to fit some specific talent in the 49ers at that time.

[BossHog]

Yeah the book and the offensive line coach couldn't possibly understand football like we do.

[Redskin in Canada]

Yeah the book and the offensive line coach couldn't possibly understand football like we do.

1. It is a matter of emphasis. One thing is to make a comment in passing in a not very impartial book, and quite another to acknowledge Otto Graham as the author of the West Coast Offense, at least in the way it succeeded in San Francisco.

2. Joe Gibbs never has played and I hope never switches to the WC offense notwithstanding the addition of Musgrave.

3. 20 years is a long time even for some old-timers like myself. From the late 60's offense of Otto Graham, and the personnel that he ran, to Bill Walsh in the 80's with completely different talent and players, well... let's say there a bit of a leap.

But you are right. What would I know if people better informed than myself say otherwise. These are only my

[redskincity]

offense has gone south--literally, towards San Diego, the home of the West Coast Offense, where it was fashioned by Sid Gillman of the NFL Chargers and Don Coryell of the San Diego State Aztecs/NFL Chargers.


http://www.4malamute.com/westcoast.html


Too me, if Don and Sid invented and updated the West Coast offense and Gibbs utilizes his system, Wouldn't we use some variant of the system???

[Redskin in Canada]

One version of the History and Evolutionof the WC offense.



I have never associated the name of D. Coryell with the West Coast Offense.

[welch]

I was intrigued by the suggestion in the Post that that Otto Graham ran elements of what became the west coast offense. Note the "Brown" in small letters, in the "geno-gram", as a source leading to Walsh. That's Paul Brown, certainly, Graham's coach at the Cleveland Browns.

But the Walsh offense never looked like Air Coryell or the Gibbs offense...at least not to me, as an observer. When I think of Walsh and the 49'ers, I think of receivers criss-crossing every which way, and a quick pass to Roger Craig. I think if Craig running tricks and traps, but not smash-mouth Hogs-like line play.

Maybe the interesting thing is how much of the "pre-WCO" thinking Sonny carried with him in his play calling for Lombardi and Allen. I remember that Allen hated letting Sonny run the team -- QB's called their own plays -- because, as my used to say, "Allen never knew what Sonny was going to do next". Maybe Sonny's creativity had been nurtured by Graham?

[BossHog]

RIC... obviously Walsh has more to do with the WCO than anyone else. All I'm saying is that if you're going to talk about the EVOLUTION... one should peerhaps consider it's possible inception.

Whether the offense Graham ran was the same as Walsh or not, to me has no bearing on mentioning that it could very well indeed be where the WCO got it's start. Like Welch said, the Brown is likely Paul Brown, and to me that means they just didn't take that chart back quite far enough. Throw a tick above Brown and the name Graham, and I'd call it a day.

I guess the only guy that could answer the question is Bill Walsh himself.

[Redskin in Canada]

Throw a tick above Brown and the name Graham, and I'd call it a day.

Brown above is indeed Paul Brown. But there were other important influences on Walsh. Al Davis and Gillman are very important too.

From the Paul Brown branch, yes, one may add Otto Graham and I would call it a day too.

[SkinsJock]

Thank you all very much - that was about as informative as I have read. We are very fortunate to have such insight available.

Football 101 indeed!


I am actually very humbled - for my 400th!

[Schlereth]

Coryell's offense is often tied to the WCO - but I think that's inaccurate. Anybody can see the difference between the Walsh offense and the Coryell offense. They were both "west-coast" and I think that's were the confusion started.

The Walsh offense is the WCO that most people think of - as you can see in the coaching tree above.

The Coryell is a different offense with it's own coaching tree - Turner, Gibbs, Martz, Vermeil, etc.

Most teams today run highly modified versions of either the Coryell or the Walsh offense, often with elements of both. It's almost unfair to lable offenses because they are so varied.

[Schlereth]

Here is a good article on the WCO from the Cardinals site:
http://www.azcardinals.com/news/news_de ... l?iid=3045

Some excerpts:

Former San Francisco 49er Head Coach and Pro Football Hall of Famer Bill Walsh is most often mentioned in the same breath when detailing the ancestry of the West Coast Offense. Walsh cultivated his football acumen at the knees of three legendary football minds—Marv Levy (Cal-Berkeley), John Ralston (Stanford), and Al Davis (Oakland Raiders).

After three years with Levy and Ralston and two with Davis and the Raiders—where among his offensive lineage was the innovations of Sid Gillman—Walsh was hired by Paul Brown with the expansion Cincinnati Bengals in 1968.

During training camp the following year in 1970, Cook suffered a shoulder injury which would effectively end his career, and in stepped Virgil Carter—thirty pounds lighter and three inches shorter than Cook and with an accurate passing arm but nowhere near the strength of his predecessor.

Back to the drawing board for the coaching staff.

Carter was known more for his mobility and ability to pass on the run as well as run the ball—265 yards and four touchdowns rushing as a rookie with the Bears in 1968—so Brown, Walsh and staff devised a game plan to take advantage of those assets. They deviated from the vertical game of Cook and instead implemented an offense based on timing, motion, and shorter pass patterns.

A couple thoughts:
- A semi-myth that surrounds the WCO is that the quarterbacks don't have strong arms. It was designed to compensate for weak arms - as you can see above - but ideally the QB would still have a strong arm. The best WCO quarterbacks today - Farve, McNabb, Vick, Plummer?, etc. have strong arms.

- The real keys to the WCO quarterback are mobility and accuracy. Accuracy especially on the run. McNabb for example is not known as an accurate pocket-passer. But on the run, he is more accurate than most quarterbacks. When I watch classic 49er games with Montana - he was often dealing with a moving pocket and making awkward throws.

[Deadskins]

Here is a good article on the WCO from the Cardinals site:
http://www.azcardinals.com/news/news_de ... l?iid=3045

Some excerpts:

Former San Francisco 49er Head Coach and Pro Football Hall of Famer Bill Walsh is most often mentioned in the same breath when detailing the ancestry of the West Coast Offense. Walsh cultivated his football acumen at the knees of three legendary football minds—Marv Levy (Cal-Berkeley), John Ralston (Stanford), and Al Davis (Oakland Raiders).

After three years with Levy and Ralston and two with Davis and the Raiders—where among his offensive lineage was the innovations of Sid Gillman—Walsh was hired by Paul Brown with the expansion Cincinnati Bengals in 1968.

During training camp the following year in 1970, Cook suffered a shoulder injury which would effectively end his career, and in stepped Virgil Carter—thirty pounds lighter and three inches shorter than Cook and with an accurate passing arm but nowhere near the strength of his predecessor.

Back to the drawing board for the coaching staff.

Carter was known more for his mobility and ability to pass on the run as well as run the ball—265 yards and four touchdowns rushing as a rookie with the Bears in 1968—so Brown, Walsh and staff devised a game plan to take advantage of those assets. They deviated from the vertical game of Cook and instead implemented an offense based on timing, motion, and shorter pass patterns.

A couple thoughts:
- A semi-myth that surrounds the WCO is that the quarterbacks don't have strong arms. It was designed to compensate for weak arms - as you can see above - but ideally the QB would still have a strong arm. The best WCO quarterbacks today - Farve, McNabb, Vick, Plummer?, etc. have strong arms.

- The real keys to the WCO quarterback are mobility and accuracy. Accuracy especially on the run. McNabb for example is not known as an accurate pocket-passer. But on the run, he is more accurate than most quarterbacks. When I watch classic 49er games with Montana - he was often dealing with a moving pocket and making awkward throws.

It is all timing, though. The QB is counting in his head, and the ball needs to be delivered to different spots on the field for different times.

[JansenFan]

From vincelombardi.com....

2. Paul Brown
Brown was the mastermind behind two great NFL franchises; he got the Cleveland Browns going in 1946 in the AAFC, and took control of he expansion Bengals in 1968. Along the way, Brown's Browns won four AAFC titles and then three NFL championships when they became part of the league in 1950. In 17 years as the head coach of the Browns, he had only one losing season, compiling a 167-53-8 record. Then in eight seasons as head coach of the Bengals, he led the team to three playoff berths. His final NFL coaching record, beginning in 1950, was 166-100-6.

Brown was more than a winner: he was gutsy, signing two black players, Marion Motley and Bill Willis, to play for the Browns in 1946. He also taught Bill Walsh the key ingredients of the West Coast offense, which he'd employed successfully with Otto Graham at QB in the 1940s and 1950s.

[welch]

This thread deserves to surface, since we have been discussing Zorn, the creation of the WCO, Walsh, Gibbs, and Coryell in Hog Wash.

Just checked the links provided by RiC and they no longer work. Ah, well. That's Internet-time for you.

One, I remember, had a drawing of a tree that showed Walsh descending from Paul Brown's line.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

This is a little late to be arriving at the party, but I came across this on another board and thought it might help those looking for "The Beginning of Everything."

Cheers.

PS: The tree itself is hard to view, but if you're willing to take some time moving around it there is some VERY good info in there.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/v ... 114739.jpg

[Countertrey]

This is a little late to be arriving at the party, but I came across this on another board and thought it might help those looking for "The Beginning of Everything."

Cheers.

PS: The tree itself is hard to view, but if you're willing to take some time moving around it there is some VERY good info in there.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/v ... 114739.jpg

The chart was facinating.

[Deadskins]

This is a little late to be arriving at the party, but I came across this on another board and thought it might help those looking for "The Beginning of Everything."

Cheers.

PS: The tree itself is hard to view, but if you're willing to take some time moving around it there is some VERY good info in there.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/v ... 114739.jpg

The chart was facinating.

It all goes back to either Paul Brown or Sid Gillman.

[welch]

It seems to me that this chart is slightly off:

- George Allen should link back to George Halas

- Several of the coaches shown connected to Allen are offensive coaches. Old George hated the offense; I think his main contribution to Marchibroda was to say "don't do anything fancy".

- Missing Lombardi and Landry

- Missing our old friend "Toot", aka Otto Graham, who ran Paul Brown's passing offense with Jurgensen, Mitchell, Smith, and Taylor. A passing attack that would destroy defenses even today.