Is Champ worth the money?

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:39 pm

I love Champ. I think Champ's a great player. I also think that Champ is overrated.

So how much is too much to pay Champ?

The Post reported that:

The Washington Redskins have made a contract proposal to Pro Bowl cornerback Champ Bailey that includes a signing bonus of about $14.75 million, sources familiar with the negotiations said yesterday. The deal would make Bailey the highest-paid cornerback and one of the highest-paid defensive players in the NFL.

Now without knowing any details of the contract, it 's hard to say whether or not we are overpaying for him. However the fact that it is more than any other DB in the league causes me immediate concern. This is where we start in contract negotiations? I miss Joe Mendes already. Here's the list of top 10 CB salaries that Bailey is 'topping'

Cornerbacks
Player Team 2002 salary
Aaron Glenn Hou. $9,079,843
Sam Madison Mia. $6,037,931
Marcus Coleman Hou. $5,380,750
Ty Law N.E. $4,710,188
Duane Starks Ariz. $4,600,000
Ashley Ambrose Atl. $3,950,000
Tyrone Williams G.B. $3,800,000
Bobby Taylor Phila. $3,750,000
Charles Woodson Oak. $3,708,333
Ray Buchanan Atl. $3,359,803

You think we're going to pay any less for Lavar? This kind of money will make it very difficult to keep both Champ and Lavar or make it so that doing so, just cripples the Redskins as far as doing anything else.

Regardless of how they work the contract to lessen the immediate cap blow... if you're going to be paying LA and CB 7-10 mil each per season out of 75 million total cap..... you do the math.

Here are the figures for franchise and transitional tags in 2003: Cornerback F-$5,962,000 T-$4,838,000

So I wanna know... how much is too much? What should we pay for Mr. Bailey? Have we already surpassed it? How much further would you go?

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:46 pm

Bailey is good. One of the best, but not THE BEST. Neither is Ty Law. He only got paid that much because they won the Super Bowl. Bailey should get paid 7 to 8 million a year for a 10 year contract. That's fair to me. That signing bonus is excessive, so is Coles'. I think Bailey is being really selfish when he says he'll consider ending contract talks BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN STARTS!!!!! All I can say is, wait until we have to work on LaVar's contract!

newshog · Post by **newshog** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:48 pm

Quick response, but I certainly wouldn't go much higher than this--it's a pretty fair opening bid (and closing bid), if you ask me.

I do NOT think Champ should be one of the highest paid defensive players out there--he just doesn't impact enough of the field.

But I do believe that the cap is an ever-increasing creature, and so in a few years we'll have more cap room by virtue of the fact that the ceiling will be raised. If we structure it right, this (and LaVar's contract) might not have as great an impact as it would seem.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:41 pm

But I do believe that the cap is an ever-increasing creature, and so in a few years we'll have more cap room by virtue of the fact that the ceiling will be raised.

Why do you say that brother? The current collective bargaining agreement has the rules set until 2007 which is at present... an uncapped year. The salary cap is always a percentage of the leagues Defined Gross Revenues (DGR) and they are firmly established for the next 4 years:

2003 - 64.25%= $75.007 million
2004 - 64.75%
2005 - 65.50%
2006 - 64.50%
2007 - uncapped year

The owners will NEVER play a season without a cap and will lock the players out if a new CBA isn't reached by 2007. As a fan, while I hate the cap, it's the only thing that keeps games moderately affordable. Rampant salaries in other leagues without such a stringent cap are driving them into the ground.

So where is the raise in the ceiling that you talk about going to come from? It's not like the NFL is going to make a substantially huge increase of DGR to increase the cap any significant number.

If you're talking about after 2007... wWe're going to be in trouble long before then. Arrington, Bailey, Trotter, Thomas, Samuels, Coles... start looking at what they're slated to make in 2005 and beyond and you realize we just won't be able to keep them all and field a 53 man roster.

In my opinion anyway. I'm no cap expert but i follow it a lot closer than most do.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:44 pm

Champ....wow. He's worth a lot more than wut he's getting but I don't know if he's worth that much. I want him here badly and he has a huge impact in every game. HOW? No one throws at him. I think we have a lot of OVERPAID players on our team who aren't producing. And I think the one play who deserved an increase was let go..., Gardener.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:32 pm

HOW? No one throws at him

They did last year... and burned him quite a few times. obviously teams will look to the other side first... but he hasn't played well enough of late to make the other team scared. He has it in him though I think. At those kind of dollars... he better eliminate half the field... you may only have enough money to buy 5 players :-)

sync · Post by **sync** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:41 pm

Selfish, Over Paid..........Hmmm interesting. :-k

Forbes has the Redskins worth around 1 billion,...... I wonder how much of that is attributed to the value that Champ Baily brings to the team, (of course, as long as he can run fast). :wink:

I wonder whose autographs and Redskin jersey, sales are in the top 5 sold, and sought after.

Who is the most consistent, reliable, injury free redskin on defense, or on the team; for the past 5 years.
Because we all know at some point, he will be treated as worthless, yesterday news :cry:

, screw him and his family after he has dedicated his life and sacrificed his body and health for the redskins and Sports Entertainment.

A free market Negotiation where a Man's worth and value is ONLY as good as his last play; Or perceived value, to a particular system(Stephen Davis). :lowblow:

A Player in the NFL, of Champ Baily's character, with his ability...............Selfish and/or Over Paid,.......... in sports entertainment,.....SELFISH......... I'm not so sure about that. :-k

Dana stubblefied overpaid, Dieon, overpaid, champ definetly not overpaid, Heath shuler overpaid, Westbrook overpaid, Trotter overpaid, that strong safety we got back a couple of years ago OVERPAID, Tom Carter overpaid, desmond howard overpaid, ........CHAMP BAILEY underpaid, under appreciated, under valued, under used, he does nothing but produce results. =D>

But I do see how a Fan can, jump to that irrational thought. (myself Included).

Lets us become aware,... this is not Jack Kent Cooks NFL anymore, but the New Snyder NFL, and if this is the (NFL=Strictly Business ERA),
then thank GOD we have SNYDER

, but Also CHAMP better make DAMN sure he knows what he is Worth, and demand it, while he can still run fast around the football field, his Jersey selling, and he is filling stadium seats.

: If Champ had Fred Smoots attitude, or warren Sapp's mouth, or Dieon Sanders flare, he would have already been signed at his asking price, and it would be regarded as the best CB in the league, by all the so called media experts. Just look at how much press the redskins have been getting over past couple of years. Hell we've been the talk of the NFL with out barely winning anything, For years.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:58 am

Forbes has the Redskins worth around 1 billion,...... I wonder how much of that is attributed to the value that Champ Baily brings to the team, (of course, as long as he can run fast). I wonder whose autographs and Redskin jersey, sales are in the top 5 sold, and sought after.

IMO, Champ has NOTHING to do with the team's financial worth. It wouldn't matter how many little 24 jereys were running around either... the league splits all merchandise revenue evenly among the teams.

Who is the most consistent, reliable

He was very subpar last year, I fail to see the consistency in that.

Because we all know at some point, he will be treated as worthless, yesterday news , screw him and his family after he has dedicated his life and sacrificed his body and health for the redskins and Sports Entertainment.

Oh please. Do you think he does it for free? He and his family are pretty well looked after thanks to the money he is paid.

Were you at training camp? 'Cause if you were, you'd realize that walking around and whining to WHOEVER will listen that your underpaid and unhappy is... selfish (or self serving at least). Are you basing your observations on what you remember about Champ from the past or things that you have witnessed? Because I've witnessed the new Champ attitude live and in color.

CHAMP BAILEY underpaid, under appreciated, under valued, under used, he does nothing but produce results

How do you figure? We just offered to make him the highest paid CB in the league... how is that 'underpaid, underappreciated and under valued' ?

Under used? Well we saw what happened last year when we tried to use him for anything other than defense.

while he can still run fast around the football field, his Jersey selling, and he is filling stadium seats

Filling seats? New fans don't get seats... you have to have been on the season ticket waiting list quite some time beofre you can get tickets... this is a Redskin phenomenon that started LONG before Champ.

Just look at how much press the redskins have been getting over past couple of years. Hell we've been the talk of the NFL with out barely winning anything, For years.

And that's because of Champ? Funny how it also corresponds with the arrival of Snyder. And the only thing the press ever do is SLAG the Redskins in the media... where's the value in that?

I guess we should all gather round and genuflect to the saint they call Champ Bailey for putting up with the pittance we pay him... and having to play football for a living...

... and it's that kind of logic that will have us overpaying Champ, and crippling this franchise salary cap wise for years to come.

... and all this for a guy who wasn't giving kids and fans alike the time of day at training camp to sign an autograph.

Sorry for the rant :-)

skinsNut · Post by **skinsNut** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:37 am

I agree Boss... he has really changed in the last year.

I'm of the thinking that Champ has the potential to be the best DB in the league, but he isn't right now. And it looks like we're going to pony up and give him basically whatever he wants.

I found the 'feel sorry for Champ' post humorous. Poor, cheated millionaire. I sure wish someone would pay me to play football for a living. :-)

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:47 am

"he has really changed in the last year"

It hasn't just been the last year. He's been like this since his 2nd year in the league in 2000. Dan Wilkinson's wife let my mom and I go in the player parking lot, and he signed 2 things, I don't remember what, but I went up to him again to get the last (third) thing signed and he said, "I already signed two things". He did sign a couple of autographs at camp this year, though.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:54 am

..... bah!!! You were lucky to get two Jake :-)

I'm not saying that he's a full fledged jerk or anything... just that he's certainly all about getting paid as opposed to this dreamy vision of the perfect player.

I have no problem with him wanting to get paid. But if we pay him like he's the #1 CB in the league, he's going to have to play a whole lot better than he did last year.

If he doesn't, he will definitely be... overpaid to say the least.

skinsfaninroanoke · Post by **skinsfaninroanoke** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:38 am

You know - if I didn't know better I would say that was Champ himself writing that letter in here.

Good Lord.

He gets paid 100 times what I do for 1 year and someone thinks he is underpaid?

The Skins are offering an average of 6.5 million per year for 9 years and he is underappreciated?

The man blew a tackle in the Patriots game - the one that he penetrated the line and hit the back in the backfield who then scampered in for a TD while Champ picked himself off of the grass. Just a mistake you say? For six and a half friggin million a year on a limited salary roster - he CAN'T make mistakes. He HAS to be a superman. He HAS to make tackles ALL the time. And for that special fan out there who believes that Champ is worth more - at this rate - he will be just under TEN percent of the salary cap. ONE player - Ten percent.

He is very good. I don't know that he is the best. I don't know if he will ever be the best with the attitude that he is copping right now. The isn't even the annoying Neon Deion attitude. This is whiny crybaby, pay me more more more attitude and frankly, I hope the Skins make it a take it or leave it amount of pay and tag him if he turns it down. Maybe we can get two draft picks for him and watch some other team have to deal with a poisonous attitude when it starts to show itself.

Just my two cents.

Rich in Roanoke

Jake · Post by **Jake** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:43 am

We could trade him for several really good players if he cuts off contract talks with us.

RedskinsFreak · Post by **RedskinsFreak** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:20 am

BossHog wrote:..... bah!!! You were lucky to get two Jake

I'm not saying that he's a full fledged jerk or anything... just that he's certainly all about getting paid as opposed to this dreamy vision of the perfect player.

And here we were thinking a little bit of Darrell Green would have rubbed off.

newshog · Post by **newshog** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:07 pm

So where is the raise in the ceiling that you talk about going to come from?

With the annual increase in the DGR. Sure, the percentages aren't due to change until a new CBA is reached for 2007 and beyond, but the base pool is growing while the salaries we negotiate now would remain fixed. So while a $7.5 million salary in 2003 might be 10% of the cap, in 2006 it might only be, say, 8.8%. Might not seem like much, but that extra savings would allow us to sign more guys in the future or help cover the expenses of our mongo contracts.

So I'm really not talking about the CBA at all or the extension thereto after 2007--of course the league ain't gonna go to a new model. They'd be NUTS to do so--there's a reason this is the most successful professional sports league in North America in the 21st century (can't really speak for British soccer, so I won't say that for sure

).

All this should be taken with the grain of salt that I'm definitely no cap expert--I only keep any kind of tabs because it's such a significant part of the league. Normally I'm pretty Yawn

about such things, I'm afraid.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:20 pm

Yeah it could go up that much based just on the DGR... but you're talking about a probable increase in the team allotment of say 10 million bucks right?

We don't have to give it all to one guy :-)

Everybody else in the league will get the same cap increase... so IMO, as the cap gets larger, so does the need for effective use of it.

They'd be NUTS to do so--there's a reason this is the most successful professional sports league in North America

I agree 100% there. I'd just like to keep it that way.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:22 pm

Lets say we deal Bailey...

what do you all think we can get for him?

Bailey is about the only sure thing on Defense right now. Smoot is moreson inconsistent than Bailey. Safeties are unproven. The line is in shambles and thats a compliment. And our LB's are overpaid too. Arrington may have Bailey beat on the consistency scale but he too misses easy tackeles, and sacks.

If we get rid of Bailey we better get something good, we better get a HELL OF A LINE, and atleast a medicore CB to replace him. Cus CB I feel is one of the hardest positions to find decency at.

newshog · Post by **newshog** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:29 pm

We don't have to give it all to one guy

Hear, hear! That's why I certainly wouldn't go up any further on Champ's deal--and as I've said before, if this contract to Champ is gonna make us unable to re-sign LaVar, then I would happily let Champ go and wish him the best of luck.

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:59 pm

I have to think a lot of this is posturing. If Champ stays quiet and unnoticed, he's likely to get less than if he complains that he's being slighted. I wouldn't be surprised if his agent has put him up to this at some point. The thought is its hard to take either side's statements seriously when in the middle of a negotiation - these are made to sway public opinion, not to state fact.

I notice that not a lot of people throw at Champ. He didn't get sent to the pro-bowl due to his charming personality and he is still young and probably still getting better. I thought the skins price was fair, but what do I know...

Also, he did lots better on the autograph signing near the end of the second week and third week. He was signing at least 3 or 4 times when I went. Still, he is nothing compared to Smoot, Ramsey, Watson, Cartwright and others who were continually there. He was certainly there as much as say Lavar.

woohit56 · Post by **woohit56** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:18 pm

newshog wrote:if this contract to Champ is gonna make us unable to re-sign LaVar, then I would happily let Champ go and wish him the best of luck.

A hella loud 'AMEN' to that. Lavar is a Redskins Redskin with the heart of a champion, IMO.

So many good points in this thread, good job with the supporting details Boss.

I guess the general consensus of the board is that Champ is a whiner and his attitude has worsened approaching the new contract. At first I liked what I was hearing from the few quotes he has had about staying in DC and being patient with the contract but now I think I was probably mislead.

For this Redskins fan (and I realize this is the NFL of the past) loyalty to this team and the willingness to take a slightly lesser contract to 'fight for old DC' will mean a lot more to the franchise and fans (ie D Green) then this crybaby crap.

I believe Champ is the best cover corner in the league, I'd say top 3 overall corner in the league. I believe he is worth the original contract offer and I agree that we tag his :moon:

if he doesn't take it.

Boss is right that he got burned more than I would have liked last year. He will not excel at anything other than defense on a consistent basis.

At the end of the day it also bothers me that he is not really a leader of the defense. He is asking for big time leadership money IMO. I see that in Lavar and think this whiner bit has gone a little too far.

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:38 pm

Amen brother.

I loved the point about leadership too... I know, I know... not everyone can be a leader, but man... he could lead a little. I didn't see him helping other CB's at all at camp, mind you it was my first camp and I only stayed a week, so I shouldn't speak in such generalizations.

However, it was that same week at camp that led me to the conclusion that Lavar was very much a leader of this defense... very much a leader of this team in fact. Does that mean he wouldn't bolt for somewhere else if the money was right? Hell, no. They all would. It's all about the benjamins.

But the ones that take the time to appease us by making us think that they want to stay are much more palatable.

Well sit back, and throw your heels up. It doesn't look like Champ and his agent are going to be leaping at the existing offer. If it's not counteroffered and accepted in the next 48 hours... I think we're in for a long ride.

HTTR

sync · Post by **sync** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:54 pm

skinsfanno9 wrote:I have to think a lot of this is posturing. If Champ stays quiet and unnoticed, he's likely to get less than if he complains that he's being slighted. I wouldn't be surprised if his agent has put him up to this at some point. The thought is its hard to take either side's statements seriously when in the middle of a negotiation - these are made to sway public opinion, not to state fact.

I notice that not a lot of people throw at Champ. He didn't get sent to the pro-bowl due to his charming personality and he is still young and probably still getting better. I thought the skins price was fair, but what do I know...

Also, he did lots better on the autograph signing near the end of the second week and third week. He was signing at least 3 or 4 times when I went. Still, he is nothing compared to Smoot, Ramsey, Watson, Cartwright and others who were continually there. He was certainly there as much as say Lavar.

Finally, Good objective, and realistic points. I was getting a little concerned there for a minute.

I thought everyone was going to start comparing their salary's to that, of a professional athletes.

OR, Start a:
"Cut Champ, he has a poisonous attitude campaign" Unless he makes every single play(even in pre-season), and, sign any and every autograph,... after every practice, and game; when, where and how anyone wants it.

Not that those aren't good points(leaving room for the backtrack :wink:

), because they are, really. :^o

BossHog · Post by **BossHog** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:26 pm

Cut Champ, he has a poisonous attitude campaign" Unless he makes every single play(even in pre-season), and, sign any and every autograph

You're over generalizing for the sake of your point... that's fine... but not factual.

People addressed his new whiney attitude... which exists, without a doubt. Have you seen an interview with him yet this season? Nothing but bickering EVERY time I've seen him. There's posturing and then there's just downright acting spoiled. Let's not lose sight of an important fact here... HE IS UNDER CONTRACT ALREADY. Whining the year before your contract is up is belly aching.... 'I'm worth more than that' blah blah blah... it was enough when you signed the contract wasn't it? It's not like he's a FA in limbo... he's under contract to play this year.

As for making every single play... I think all anyone said was that he got burned lots last year... which he did. I don't think anyone questions his abilities here. Just that some of us think that as Redskin fans we spend so much time saying Champ's the best for the sake of being bragadocious and in reality, 'the best' don't have seasons like Champ had last year.

As for the autograph thing... i'm not an autograph hound, so I couldn't care less. HOWEVER, there are lots of lesser knowns out there spending time with the kids. Kids that come from far and near to see players like Champ. I think it's a shame to see them walk away heart broken day after day because their favorite player Champ keeps running past them without even thinking about stopping. It's not about the autographs... it's about appreciating the fans.

Patrick Ramsey put in the equivalent of two full days of practice extra with the time he spent with the crowd signing autographs and taking pictures at camp.

While I don't expect everyone to love the limelight and bask in the glory... I do think if you want to get paid like the best (his words not mine), then there is some onus on you to give back to the fans that pay that exhorbitant salary.

tx_skins_fan · Post by **tx_skins_fan** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:43 pm

If you don't recall Champ being burned, look back to the last two losses to the Cowboys. Quincy Carter burned him as he stopped on the sideline looking lost. Rocket Ismail took it all the way in for the score. Last year on Thanksgiving, Chad Hutchison burned him with Joey Galloway to put the game out of reach. This is the worst offense in the league burning the "best corner" in the league. Quincy and Chad?!? He has to play better against spares like these!! If not, put the tag on him, and let someone else worry about it.

skinsfaninroanoke · Post by **skinsfaninroanoke** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:48 pm

My personal opinion about someone's attitudes, which reflect on the entire team (a la the 2000 season and all of their bad attitudes) are accurate.

If a person says they are the best in the league, expects to be paid like the best, and feels uppity enough to act so unseemly, they should make a tackle on a 200 pound HB that runs into their arms.

I didn't say cut Champ, I said if he gets worse about this contract, lets tag him, and allow teams to send us their two first rounders if they want him.

Do I expect a human to make a mistake? Yes, but if Champ wants, on average, 7 million dollars a year, I think he could do something about improving his skills and stats.

Just a few further questions - Who had the most ints on the team last year? Who did in the NFL? Answer - not Champ. Not by far. Sorry - not the best at this time. Get paid in the top 5, which I think if he quits sulking and pouting he can play like, but not the #1 DB in the country.

Rich in Roanoke