The Core Redskins

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:42 pm

How could Taylor be too immature but Cool

ey makes your list. They are both Rookies.

I don't think that Arrington can be included in this list he barely played this year. He needs to earn that spot. Bowen's is iffy, he did earn a spot for the part of the year that he played however.

DieselFan · Post by **DieselFan** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:52 pm

NikiH wrote:How could Taylor be too immature but ey makes your list. They are both Rookies.

I don't think that Arrington can be included in this list he barely played this year. He needs to earn that spot. Bowen's is iffy, he did earn a spot for the part of the year that he played however.

hmmm...let's see: Taylor hired an agent, fired that agent, hired another, signed a contract, quickly complained about it...fired that agent, then re-hired his original agent. He left the mandatory Rookie symposium to avoid 'getting evicted'....he then got all crybaby on us when Lavar put shaving cream in his face. Then he won't talk to reporters, then he gets a DUI...all while getting a penalty or two a game for unsportsmanlike conduct or late hit. All Cool

ey does is catch touchdowns and conduct himself w/respect. Don't get me wrong...if I'm picking teams in backyard football...I'm taking Taylor over Cool

ey...but we're talking about the non-football intangibles here...that's what makes them (truly) a "core" Redskin.

alwaysaskinner · Post by **alwaysaskinner** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:58 pm

Yes-Coles had 90 WHOLE catches for a whopping 950 yards. Last I saw he wasn't lining up in the TE spot, he's supposed to be a wide receiver-that means DOWN FIELD, not standing next to the chain gang.
I know, I know already, he had to suffer through Brutal, but then what? When Ramsey and his cannon arm came in where was Coles????I'll tell you where, trotting ten yards downfield and turning around....hell Jacobs had longer catches than him.....

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:03 pm

alwaysaskinner wrote:Yes-Coles had 90 WHOLE catches for a whopping 950 yards. Last I saw he wasn't lining up in the TE spot, he's supposed to be a wide receiver-that means DOWN FIELD, not standing next to the chain gang.
I know, I know already, he had to suffer through Brutal, but then what? When Ramsey and his cannon arm came in where was Coles????I'll tell you where, trotting ten yards downfield and turning around....hell Jacobs had longer catches than him.....

Actually he had 48 catches with Ramsey, and 42 with Brunell so... he basically did the same with both QB in there... the 950 probably was a result of us not throwing down field but a couple times all season.... and again... he had played on a bad foot all season.... so, you lose

alwaysaskinner · Post by **alwaysaskinner** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:20 pm

Bring-PLEASE reread the post, and look at what was being said....a wide receiver should not be averaging TEN YARDS a catch. That's a tight end's job, or maybe we could rename it the near receiver in his honor.
NO deep threat, no dazzling speed, no victory for you, scoreborad says....
:roll:

DieselFan · Post by **DieselFan** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:32 pm

alwaysaskinner wrote:Bring-PLEASE reread the post, and look at what was being said....a wide receiver should not be averaging TEN YARDS a catch. That's a tight end's job, or maybe we could rename it the near receiver in his honor.
NO deep threat, no dazzling speed, no victory for you, scoreborad says....

It appears it's time for Dr. Diesel to mediate this dispute. Drawing upon my endless fount of knowledge, here is my conclusion: While I see alwaysaskinner's point...I must side (75/25 in favor of) with BTP. Coles is known to be a hard worker and using his 90 catch/nearly 1,000 yard season AGAINST him seems a bit silly. Where I find the issue with Coles is with his locker room presence. Seems to be a bit of a loner...and that is why I would not consider him a shoe-in as a "core" Redskin. So, in conclusion, Dr. Diesel sides w/BTP on the grounds that alwaysaskinner's argument is fallacious.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:32 pm

alwaysaskinner wrote:Bring-PLEASE reread the post, and look at what was being said....a wide receiver should not be averaging TEN YARDS a catch. That's a tight end's job, or maybe we could rename it the near receiver in his honor.
NO deep threat, no dazzling speed, no victory for you, scoreborad says....

no, no, no my friend... see that thing in front of you.. It's a wall... knock it down... and break out the books.... here's a free lesson...

Brunell was throwing to him half the year.... well, let's say throwing some where in the vacinity of him... Ramsey then stepped in and Joe scaled back the offense to 500 wide reciever screens a game and threw the long ball once... if we were that lucky per game.... those screens will kill an average my friend....

and the last thing was, he played on a bad foot... all YEAR...... all of that and he still managed to catch 90 balls....

class dismissed...

alwaysaskinner · Post by **alwaysaskinner** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:34 pm

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:35 pm

Wait you forgot that during his time with Brunnell he also dislocated his finger and continued to play with it that way without word one. Ok I have to put Coles on, take Portis off.

BringThePain! · Post by **BringThePain!** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:39 pm

NikiH wrote:Wait you forgot that during his time with Brunnell he also dislocated his finger and continued to play with it that way without word one. Ok I have to put Coles on, take Portis off.

So he caught 90 overthrown, across the middle balls on one foot and 9 fingers in a prevent offense, all year long....

the man is a warrior....

jdmills23 · Post by **jdmills23** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:46 pm

What a huge mistake it would be to not include Coles. He even gets me all pumped up when he makes those over the middle catches, I cant see a team not saying "If he's going to put his heart on the line, so will I!". That is what makes teams better.

Skin Diesel · Post by **Skin Diesel** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:50 pm

If "core players" are a few players around whom a team should be built, then they are Ramsey, Coles and Jansen on offense. Cool

ey is close but still young, and Portis is a great player, but not one to build a team around. On defense, they are Pierce, Griffin, Washington and Springs. I'd add Smoot if I knew for sure he'd sign for a reasonable price. Bowens is real close and Taylor will be there when he matures. Finally, Thrash is THE MAN on special teams, so he's another core guy. With that being said, I hope we keep 90% of this year's roster, because almost all of the players showed great toughness and heart all year.

SkinsHead56 · Post by **SkinsHead56** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:16 pm

alwaysaskinner wrote:Mr. Samuels, Mr. Smoot, and Mr. Coles are all great cadidates for removal from that list....Smoot's leaving, Coles apparently can't catch a cold in a freezer, and Samuels seems to have forgotten he plays football-on Sundays-for the Redskins....
McCants or Jacobs would be good additions, along of course, with Thrash.

Well I have to disagree, I'm not sure you were watching the same team as I was this year. Coles makes catches that would knock the crud out of mortal WRs this guy is tough and he let's his play do the talking. As for McCants....where does McCants belong on this list? He hasen't even played this year which means he hasen't practiced well. That is not core

ejay183 · Post by **ejay183** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:27 pm

I will put Coles as a "core" guy, the offense was mostly short passes. Coles has great speed, good heart, and never stops playing, even with pain. He should get his injuries in check during the offseason. In short, he has 90 catches, close to 1,000 yards on an offense that does short passes, and rarely anything deep. He must stay.

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:19 pm

Nobody defined the terms. Respectfully, I feel that there might be a bit of a confusion in this thread about talented players -versus- "core" Redskins. There are quite a few talented players in this team. Many of them will come back next season.

A "core" Redskin is not only a very talented player, that is taken for granted. While a "core" Redskin may not be necessarily the best at his position in the NFL, the strength of his character under adversity and the discipline as a team player will distinguish him from any others.

So that we understand one another, I would name two players that typify the quitessential "core" Skins in the past Gibbs era. On offense, for example, Art Monk. On defense, for example, Darrell Green. These are examples, please do not run a list on me.

So, I respect each poster standards but "core" Skin is a very high standard in my book. While I like many players mentioned, I am not sure that my list would be as long as the ones I have seen above.

To give you a couple of examples: There is no question that Portis and Taylor are some of the most talented players in their positions in the entire NFL. But I do not feel that -right now- either has matured to be a TEAM first player with enough maturity in- and out-side the field to conduct themselves as a core Skin.

These two and other players have the potential to become "core" as soon as next season. But they are not there, -yet-

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:18 pm

RiC! I saw that you're list of "core" players would be short!

Can you lengthen it a little to include some player(s)?

Clinton Portis · Post by **Clinton Portis** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:34 pm

alwaysaskinner wrote:Mr. Samuels, Mr. Smoot, and Mr. Coles are all great cadidates for removal from that list....Smoot's leaving, Coles apparently can't catch a cold in a freezer, and Samuels seems to have forgotten he plays football-on Sundays-for the Redskins....
McCants or Jacobs would be good additions, along of course, with Thrash.

I Just stopped reading when I heard COLES COULDNT CATCH. What is ya problem manye! Coles has very good hands and is DEFINITALY a core Redskins. What in the world :?:

(NOT BETTS...IT WAS A FLUKE GOD DAMN!!!)

What the...Ladell can run...we are not in the Trung Candidate Era here, he's a bit better this year and is obviously a power runner, and a good alternate. Chillll manye, he's defintly core, cuz he's blue-collar non flashy.

Though I question CP's faith to the Skins squad, his numbas are good and he's a solid player, and hasn't done anything to say he's NOT a team player. Flashy, yea. Team Player? I'll put a :?:

there.

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:08 pm

SkinsJock wrote:RiC! I saw that you're list of "core" players would be short!

Can you lengthen it a little to include some player(s)?

Sure:

Offense

Patrick Ramsey (next to the guy below)
Chris Cool

ey (next to the guy above)
Chris Samuels (yep, he'll re-structure, played hurt)
Ray Brown (as a back-up, what a story...)
Jon Jansen (the most missed man on the line)
James Thrash (Gibbs regrets not giving him the ball more)
Laveranues Coles (I am not even going to argue about it)

Defense

Cornelius Griffin (he was eager to show he deserves to be)
Marcus Washington (what a diamond in the not so rough)
Antonio Pierce (typical NFL feel good story will take over as a starter)
Lavar Arrington (but I struggled on it with very strong views on both sides, but he is in).

I am leaving out some of my good prospects:

Clinton Portis (top 3 back in the NFL)
Robert Royal (he has a great future if healthy)
Taylor Jacobs (I want him to succeed, my bias)
Shawn Springs (our -real- shut down corner)
Matt Bowen (killer combination with Taylor)
Sean Taylor (good lessons hopefully learned this season)
Joe Salave'a (Love the intensity)
Rock Cartwright (perseverance pays with Gibbs)

But the beautiful thing about a Gibbs team is the complete unpredictability about who will really shine. They have come from so -different- paths that I feel silly even making this list. I know others will be added that are not here yet, and ,sadly, some of those here may not make it.

So, there you have it. It is incomplete and biased but I am judging characterand discipline and not only raw talent.

Justice Hog · Post by **Justice Hog** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:25 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:While I like many players mentioned, I am not sure that my list would be as long as the ones I have seen above.

To give you a couple of examples: There is no question that Portis and Taylor are some of the most talented players in their positions in the entire NFL. But I do not feel that -right now- either has matured to be a TEAM first player with enough maturity in- and out-side the field to conduct themselves as a core Skin.

These two and other players have the potential to become "core" as soon as next season. But they are not there, -yet-

Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make. And, to justify why I picked Cool

ey and not Taylor, another poster took the words right out of my mouth. Cool

ey is a great young player and he is certainly a "team" player. Taylor, while a great player, has had so many "issues" this year, associated with being immature, that I just can't call him a "core player".......yet. Let's see what happens next year.

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:21 pm

I thought for a second that RIC was the only one here that understands what a "core" Redskins is. Then I saw his list and realized that he doesn't quite get it either =P

A core Skin in Joe's terms is this.

1. Plays to the best of his ability at all times, whether he is hurt or not. If he's only 80% but can still play, then he plays 90%.

2. Goes 110% at all times, whether in practice, the weight room, or a game.

3. Is a leader to the other guys by example, not by words or deeds.

4. Always believes and never gives up.

5. Has a blue collar work ethic and attitude.

6. Is a team guy thru and thru. That means, he doesn't want to be the highest paid player in the league. That means, he doesn't try to make the team look bad or get leverage on the team thru the media. That means all problems are in house. That means no yelling at the guy who just fumbled. That means no matter what happens, you are going to be there for your brothers and do everything you possibly can to make THEM look good.

My complete current list of core redskins in order is as follows.

1. John Jansen
2. James Thrash
3. Randy Thomas
4. Marcus Washington
5. Cornelius Griffin
6. Brandon Noble

John Hall woulda made the list if not for the injuries, but we need to find out if he's injury prone or not.

Coles would have made my list, if it weren't for the bad toe thing. It's affecting his play and he won't try to fix it, so I just can't include him.

Smoot definitely would have made my list if not for the greed thing.

Pierce also would make the list, but we need to wait and see how he handles the contract situation.

Lavar would definitely make the list if not for the I got jipped on my contract situation. In fact, he'd be #1 if not for that.

Cool

ey is a good future consideration, but just doesn't have enough time in to prove it yet.

Taylor is nowhere near a core-skin yet, he's far too immature right now.

Andre Lott, Ryan Clark and Matt Bowen all get honorable mention, but they also need more time for me to make a decision on that one.

Guess that's pretty much it...

NikiH · Post by **NikiH** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:40 pm

Ok I'm not saying that Sean Taylor should be on the list BUT he got punch in the lip. Went off got stitches and got back on the field. I've seen players with littler injuries park their rears on the bench. During one of the plays after he returned one of the lovely 49er punks smacked him right in the stitches and they opened up again. If that isn't the definition of toughness I have no idea what is. And the leadership front he needs some work. But he has one key thing alot of players in the NFL never develop. That is why I took offense to his maturity being the reason he could not be included in even potential members of this "list". Luckily none of you make the consideration, and the men that do know a hell of alot more about these guys then we do.

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:29 am

Scottskins wrote:I thought for a second that RIC was the only one here that understands what a "core" Redskins is. Then I saw his list and realized that he doesn't quite get it either =P

At least I acknowledged my inaccuracies in my post. You are tougher than I am. :cry:

I said I would not even argue about Coles, and I will not. :roll:

Ramsey and Cool

ey will make history together as much as most NFL fans associate Favre-Sharp, Montana-Clarke, Green-Gonzalez, or Theisman-most of our HBs. Both have the character and none of the flaws identified in your message. So, they do not have the history yet. True. But there is enough in their hearts this season to show me.

Ray Brown I could not leave out (as a back up). He went in to do a job for which he had not been hired. While not a star a definite good performance considering his situation. He understand Gibbs. He helped in the locker room.

I still believe in C. Samuels. But this is an act of faith to be checked very soon.

Antonio Pierce is there and we will agree to disagree.

I have a deep admiration for Noble. I just do not feel that he will be around long enough after the injury, unfortunately.

Otherwise, I do not feel we are too far apart. But this is a VERY inexact science.

tcwest10 · Post by **tcwest10** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:40 am

BringThePain! wrote:
alwaysaskinner wrote:Coles apparently can't catch a cold in a freezer...

he had 90 catches this season... he's only the third Redskin ever to have that many...

Agreed, BTP.

That's a hell of a thing to say about a guy who played with nagging injuries all year, and had very little to say about the lack of long balls coming his way.

JPM36 · Post by **JPM36** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:27 am

I consider the "core" guys to be the guys we build around. The foundation of the team.

Sean Taylor was the 5th overall pick in last year's draft and had an outstanding rookie season, establishing himself as a punishing hitter with way above average cover skills. He might also be one of the 5 best athletes in the entire NFL. Sure he looked a little green from time to time but what rookie doesnt?

To say he isn't a core guy on this team is ridiculous.

And Shawn Springs should be on everyones list too. He became the 3rd player in NFL history to lead a team in picks and sacks and did so on a defense that was ranked #2 in the NFL. He also shut down the immortal Terrell Owens not once but twice this year (with Taylor's help of course) He is definitely part of the Redskins foundation.

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:33 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:
Scottskins wrote:I thought for a second that RIC was the only one here that understands what a "core" Redskins is. Then I saw his list and realized that he doesn't quite get it either =P
At least I acknowledged my inaccuracies in my post. You are tougher than I am.

I said I would not even argue about Coles, and I will not.

Ramsey and ey will make history together as much as most NFL fans associate Favre-Sharp, Montana-Clarke, Green-Gonzalez, or Theisman-most of our HBs. Both have the character and none of the flaws identified in your message. So, they do not have the history yet. True. But there is enough in their hearts this season to show me.

Ray Brown I could not leave out (as a back up). He went in to do a job for which he had not been hired. While not a star a definite good performance considering his situation. He understand Gibbs. He helped in the locker room.

I still believe in C. Samuels. But this is an act of faith to be checked very soon.

Antonio Pierce is there and we will agree to disagree.

I have a deep admiration for Noble. I just do not feel that he will be around long enough after the injury, unfortunately.

Otherwise, I do not feel we are too far apart. But this is a VERY inexact science.

got me on that one RIC. I forgot Ramsey. He's definitely on the list. Probably around 3rd. Pure guts and determination put him on there. Good call. Like I said, Cool

ey looks like one, but only time will tell. I would have included Ray Brown, but the fact is, we'll be lucky to have him next season, let alone any after that.