Who stays and who goes on the O-Line?

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:37 am

It seems that most people on the board say the offense is struggling because of the offensive line, and if the line were better then we would have a much more productive offense. Assuming that is the case, who should stay and who should go?

LT Chris Samuels- Good player, but not great. Unfortunately he's being paid superstar money and isn't playing like an elite caliber player. Should we attempt to trade him in the offseason? Word is that Washington is trying to re-sign him, so probably a trade or release isn't likely IF in fact Samuels re-signs for a "sane" ammount of money.

LG Derrick Dockery- I thought Dockery progressed very nicely last season, but is he doing well on the line this year? I don't get to "see" a whole lot of games, and that's really the only way to evaluate the line. Does Dockery still look like the guard of the future?

C Corey Raymer- From what I have seen, and heard Cory Raymer has been terrible. He gets beat on the snap, isn't getting a good push. IMO he may be the weakest link. Of course I did read an article by Joe Bugel that said Raymer gets the job done... so that left me a little confused... :-\

RG Randy Thomas- Thomas was supposed to be a big free agent prize from the year of the Jetskins, but has he been a superstar?

RT Jon Jansen- I really like Jansen and I think he'll be back with a vengence in 2005. He's missed the whole year with an injury but recently said he was back at 100%. Will he return as a superstar in the league? Will he anchor our 2005 line?

Which one or five of these players should be dismissed as we look for offseason replacements?

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:08 pm

Dockery gets flagged too often.

Raymer isn't nearly as good as he used to be.

Samuels has potential, but the question is will he realize it.

Brown is mediocre at best.

Jansen is the re-incarnation of Lachey.

I think Samuels is a goner, Dockery will be given a chance, and Thomas is entrenched.

SKIN1106 · Post by **SKIN1106** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:40 pm

YES, SAMUELS SHOULD GO! He is good, but let's not put all of our $$$$$$ into one player.
Especially after we really need to look into this line!
If we invested $50mil for Clinton...let's at least try to have a decent line.
As much as i hate the broncos(their o-line) is good!
We need to resemble that o-line if we want the BEST of Clinton!
Otherwise we will not see any results and we will be stuck
paying $$ And $$$ for unworthy players. WE NEED to trade for Gardner...i don't know if you guys have noticed, but this guy has no passion for the game...
(he is so worried about his earings)!
I just hate his attitude.
For us to win games next year and in the future...we need to have guys that have the right attitude.
I am sure GIBBS notices them!
I can't wait to we get rid of these lazy bums!!
I think we should get rid of/trade:
SAMUELS(TRADE)/who knows
oakland will give us some picks for him:)
GARDNER(tade) selfish, unmotivated player! YUK!!!
MORTON:(Trade)....when he was healthy he was no use!!
We are paying him to much$$$$$$$. to just return 10yards!PLEASE! A HIGH SCHOOL PLAYER CAN DO BETTER!!!
BARROW: I think we should just let him go. Our d-does not need him.
BRUNNEL PLEASE RETIRE!
DOCKERY: Either you work up to your level or Trade. He has cost us so many penalties!!! especially when we actually where about to score!
I don't want D-mac to go, but he needs to work his butt in order to be out there. Coach Gibbs likes the guy, but he prob. did something wrong to not be out there.
There are more players that i think need to be relooked at!
Let's see what happens in the next months:)

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:50 pm

From what I hear JP the O line needs quality, depth and a change of blocking scheme to suit CP.

I think Chris stays if he and the Skins can agree on his pay. Fortunately he did not have a good (not bad!) year. OK maybe I'm a little generous for Jake's sake.

Dockery and Raymer are good backups. Jansen and Thomas are staying and hopefully Chris. This would mean we need a guard and a center.

I would think the O lineman would be experienced players and then we can draft for the future on D and other areas.

This may be simplistic but we need Buges to get more from the line OR come up with a better scheme to suit the players we have. We did not have a good year from anyone both players and coaches on our offense.

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:42 pm

There will be several really good OL and DL players in the market for a deal both in free agency and the draft during the offseason. I see no excuse to upgrade our lines (provided that we can breathe under the salary cap).

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:07 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote: I see no excuse to upgrade our lines (provided that we can breathe under the salary cap).

R i C - by this I think you're implying that we see what we can do for both lines in free agency. This group has been pretty good at getting a lot more out of people than others thought possible - reminds you of the past?

As far as the cap goes there are going to be a lot of interesting things happen as we prepare for both this and next year. From what we can gather the cap will rise for 2006 as well BUT we are still in some trouble and need to bear that in mind also! It looks like we'll find out about Chris pretty soon.

I just feel that these guys (FO and coaches) are going to look for experienced "nuggets" rather than draftees. I'm also hoping that we can get some people out of the draft that we can prepare for the not to distant future. These are a little more economical too!

By the way - you have to wait for the snow to melt a little - it's a better workout!!

Redskin in Canada · Post by **Redskin in Canada** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:57 pm

R i C - by this I think you're implying that we see what we can do for both lines in free agency. This group has been pretty good at getting a lot more out of people than others thought possible - reminds you of the past?

The DL is in better shape than the OL. But we have no true DL rusher in the sense of Manley or Mann if we are out to recall the past. We need two like them.

The OL is in much deeper trouble. The Gibbs "system" needs not a good line, but a great -dominant- OL to work. We need two, maybe three positions to fill in there.

As far as the cap goes there are going to be a lot of interesting things happen as we prepare for both this and next year. From what we can gather the cap will rise for 2006 as well BUT we are still in some trouble and need to bear that in mind also! It looks like we'll find out about Chris pretty soon.

We are almost or right at the limit. Not good. Something's gotta give...

I just feel that these guys (FO and coaches) are going to look for experienced "nuggets" rather than draftees. I'm also hoping that we can get some people out of the draft that we can prepare for the not to distant future. These are a little more economical too!!

True. I do expect some people come and knock on our door, not necessarily looking for a great deal but for the privilege to win under Joe Gibbs. Several players in our history came to us this way.

By the way - you have to wait for the snow to melt a little - it's a better workout!!

I am still hurting man. My next door neighbours are over 80 and he has a heart condition. So, once I had "warmed up" finished my driveway, I really got going on theirs. I am having a frozen beer (Corona) right now. Maybe, I will have another after that...

Amberion · Post by **Amberion** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:22 pm

My

(based on what little i have seen and read)

O-Line - keep Jansen, Thomas and a restrustured contract for Samuels

Backs - keep Portis and Betts

Recievers - keep Cool

ey, Thrash and get Coles to a doctor

QB - keep Ramsey

Anyone else is expendable and should be traded if possible

Defense - keep em all except Jimoh

Thank you for listening

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:47 pm

I would agree with RiC in that we need at least 1 person who can pressure the passer. Our D is playing very sound football but IMO we would be even more effective (I'm getting greedy now) if we could pressure the passer better. I also think that because of our "situation" we are going to have to hope for someone (or 2) to step it up or to come to us cheaply because I would not encourage any more over spending!!

I also would like to get an offensive line that pushes people around again and we are a few bodies away from that!

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:37 am

SkinsJock wrote:From what I hear JP the O line needs quality, depth and a change of blocking scheme to suit CP.

I think Chris stays if he and the Skins can agree on his pay. Fortunately he did not have a good (not bad!) year. OK maybe I'm a little generous for Jake's sake.

Dockery and Raymer are good backups. Jansen and Thomas are staying and hopefully Chris. This would mean we need a guard and a center.

I would think the O lineman would be experienced players and then we can draft for the future on D and other areas.

This may be simplistic but we need Buges to get more from the line OR come up with a better scheme to suit the players we have. We did not have a good year from anyone both players and coaches on our offense.

I agree with all of this (saves on typing)
I think Ray Brown will be OK in Dockery's spot, which only leaves a quality center.
We should all be happy with the play Samuels :lol:

The days of FA spending sprees are hopefully over but depending on what we do in free agency we should draft the best available player

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:43 am

A pass rushing DE will have to come from free agency the 2 that I like are

DE John Abraham
DE Corey Sears

But I would want to resign these two before signing either of them

DE Ron Warner
DE Demetric Evans

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:46 am

Why would a pass rushing DE need to come from free agency? There are quite a few good DE's in the draft that will be available at our pick.

1niksder · Post by **1niksder** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:04 am

Skinsfan55 wrote:Why would a pass rushing DE need to come from free agency? There are quite a few good DE's in the draft that will be available at our pick.

How many rookie DEs have come out of the 1st round to be a game changer in the last few years. Hopefully Joe will find one in the later rounds that can pick up Williams schemes by mid-season. If we can find one in free agency that won't be asking for the moon and can fit right into the type D we're playing then we should bring them in. The 2 I named in the prev post are more than likely to be asking for stuoid $$$

As far as the draft goes we'll have to wait and see who we sign in FA between now and April, then we'll know what we need

Right now I say draft the best player on the board (a top 10 pick)
or
Trade down and pick up a second round pick( if Mike Williams is available when we go on the clock we could get paid)

darkwing99 · Post by **darkwing99** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:09 am

Exactly what i've been saying we draft the best player available.It will most likely be between Antre Rolle CB from Miami or Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:34 am

How many rookie DEs have come out of the 1st round to be a game changer in the last few years

2004
Kenechi Udeze (Vikings)- 36 Tackles, 5 sacks, 1 forced fumble
Will Smith (Saints)- 37 Tackles, 6 sacks, 5 forced fumbles

2003
Terrell Suggs (Ravens)- 56 tackles, 12 sacks, 6 fumbles, 1 int
Michael Haynes (Bears) - 22 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 fumble
Tyler Brayton (Raiders) - 61 tackles, 2.5 sacks

2002
Dwight Freeney (Colts) - 46 tackles, 13 sacks, 1 fumble
Charles Grant (Saints) - 37 tackles, 7 sacks, 4 fumbles

Not bad for a bunch of rookies

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:40 am

I say we get rid of Vinny. He's got us in this mess.

Skinsfan55 · Post by **Skinsfan55** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:40 am

SkinzCanes wrote:
How many rookie DEs have come out of the 1st round to be a game changer in the last few years

2004
Kenechi Udeze (Vikings)- 36 Tackles, 5 sacks, 1 forced fumble
Will Smith (Saints)- 37 Tackles, 6 sacks, 5 forced fumbles

2003
Terrell Suggs (Ravens)- 56 tackles, 12 sacks, 6 fumbles, 1 int
Michael Haynes (Bears) - 22 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 fumble
Tyler Brayton (Raiders) - 61 tackles, 2.5 sacks

2002
Dwight Freeney (Colts) - 46 tackles, 13 sacks, 1 fumble
Charles Grant (Saints) - 37 tackles, 7 sacks, 4 fumbles

Not bad for a bunch of rookies

Exactly, also you'll often see a rookie come in for a terrible team and not be able to carry the entire load right away. If a rookie DE came to the Redskins with an already good defense and a defensive coach then we've really got something to work with.

SKINS#1 · Post by **SKINS#1** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:37 pm

To upgrade the many needs on offense I would consider trading LaVar. With our current LB's we don't need him to win a chanpionship.

Chris Luva Luva · Post by **Chris Luva Luva** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:56 pm

I believe Suggs who plays DE or LB for the Ravens cause a LOT of heck his rookie season and has continued that trend in his sophmore debut.

If we draft any rookie we can't expect him to fix all of our problems but if we bring him in to compliment a sturdy area of our team he'll do better.

hailskins666 · Post by **hailskins666** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:41 pm

SKINS#1 wrote:To upgrade the many needs on offense I would consider trading LaVar. With our current LB's we don't need him to win a chanpionship.

impossible with the cap numbers he has.

Skins71 · Post by **Skins71** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:32 pm

Why are we talking about D line, we are the # 2 ranked Defense without Lavar, that is pretty damn good, Now back to the topic the O line, Samuels needs to restructure or he will be trade bait, some later round draft picks would be fine, trade our top 10 pick for some later round picks and add depth and competition on the O and D line. Should help our cap b/c we are going to need it, Ramsey will hold out until he gets brunell type $$$. We don't need anymore 1st rounders at this point we can't afford them, don't want to be like the cardinals. Smoot know your worth don't seek top pay. D Mac right your wrongs Gardners spot could be yours. Jacobs start learning how to field punts, and kickoffs, Barrow go back to the Giants they need you on there bench more, Resign Pierce don't make another mistake like we did with derek smith. Portis grow up or Betts will get your job, Thomas start earning your pay we don't lay down against dallass no matter what our record is, Dockery, Wilson keep working. Raymer your still better than Moore in my book. Brown is a solid back up.
Sorry for the venting ---- Hail

skinpride1 · Post by **skinpride1** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:05 pm

My fellow redskin's the offensive line must have some repairs in the offseason.Everyone knows that it is the weak link of this football team.I also think our special teams need some repair.They have done alright but not great.I can't say enough about greg willams and our defense.I hope that the front office will stop wasting the big dollars on players that never seem to produce.I hope to see them let gibb's make his own picks of the players in the offseason.The players have had a season, to get use to gibb's system.The false starts and offensive pentalties are not exceptable.Everyone knows who is getting flagged and not performing on the line.If i had my choice samuels would be the first to go.
I think Ramsey deserves a chance to prove his self next year.The offensive line holds the key for everthing else to fall in place.I hope that 2005 season will be the year that gibbs proves the whole football world wrong.Hail to the redskins!!!!!!!!!

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Who stays and who goes on the O-Line?

Who stays and who goes on the O-Line?

The offensive line must be rebuild in the offseason