The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Seen a few of these articles pop up this week...I think it's a bit early but it's make for good conversation...


http://washington.cbslocal.com/2016/12/ ... questions/

It's way too early to evaluate the 2016 draft class. There are just too many examples of why you have to wait at least two years to evaluate a draft.

Yeah I agree with BGF. I mean, how many people had written Trent Murphy off as a bad pick? And Morgan Moses before that.

I don't mind discussing the 2016 draft class, but I wouldn't be too quick to make judgements about those players.

Honestly, the only guy I'm actually concerned about from this year's draft class is Doctson. When I hear the Redskins radio guys talking about him, it seems like there is something else going on with that situation beyond just an injury. Has anybody else had that impression?

Exactly right. Judging a draft class this early is useless. I cringe when I see the "experts" giving out their draft grades the minute a draft ends. No one has any idea how the class will turn out. You need a good 2-3 years to truly evaluate.

I rarely think about how nfl players lives off the field effect them on the field. Until I met one of our rookie players ex girlfriends. This girl was 24 just graduated had her own business and was at least a 10. Just gorgeous. The type of girl that makes you stop what you're doing.

Anyhow this woman told me that our rookie and her were supposed to get married but he backed out. So she packed her bags and moved to L.A.Anyhow this player is now wanting to get back with her. So I can actually see how this rookie might be affected by this situation. Just goes to show how many distractions there are off the field.

I think Cravens was a good pick, with potential to be a hit. He's not the kind of player who steps in immediately and dominates — what hybrid player does? — but once he and the coaches really dial in his niche in the NFL I see him being a key player on the team. We've seen flashes from him.

Doctson is an obvious concern, but I refuse to pass any judgment on him until we actually see him play.

It's true we haven't seen much from the others. Ioannidis was probably the most questionable choice among them. Our UDFA pickups made up for our misses in the later rounds.

when you look at our franchise and where we are after not even 2 full seasons since the end of 2014, there's a huge difference

who really cares about a few players from the 2016 draft - let's give these FO guys a few more years of doing things their way

The class of 2015 made a bigger contribution as rookies but lets see when Doctson gets healthy and the others settle in 2017 & 2018.

Irn-Bru wrote:I think Cravens was a good pick, with potential to be a hit. He's not the kind of player who steps in immediately and dominates — what hybrid player does? — but once he and the coaches really dial in his niche in the NFL I see him being a key player on the team. We've seen flashes from him.

Doctson is an obvious concern, but I refuse to pass any judgment on him until we actually see him play.

It's true we haven't seen much from the others. Ioannidis was probably the most questionable choice among them. Our UDFA pickups made up for our misses in the later rounds.

Cravens could be the starting strong safety next season. Or not.

Doctson could be the starting X receiver next season. Or not.

Ioannidis could be starting next season. Or not.

Marshall could be on the roster next season. Or not.

The surest thing about the 2016 draft as of right now isn't a draft pick. It's UDFA Robert Kelley.

Cravens has a lot of potential. Yes I like that pick.

SkinsJock wrote:when you look at our franchise and where we are after not even 2 full seasons since the end of 2014, there's a huge difference

I know you're making a point here about McCloughan, but I've been thinking lately that Bruce actually deserves some credit for 2014 also. The 2014 season was a disaster, but I'd argue that was kind of unavoidable for a lot of reasons.

Bruce Allen got five starters out of eight picks that year. Murphy, Moses, Long, Breeland and Ryan Grant (who I'm counting as a ST starter). That draft is looking pretty decent a couple years later. Many of us were beating Allen up about it for a while.

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:when you look at our franchise and where we are after not even 2 full seasons since the end of 2014, there's a huge difference

I know you're making a point here about McCloughan, but I've been thinking lately that Bruce actually deserves some credit for 2014 also. The 2014 season was a disaster, but I'd argue that was kind of unavoidable for a lot of reasons.

Bruce Allen got five starters out of eight picks that year. Murphy, Moses, Long, Breeland and Ryan Grant (who I'm counting as a ST starter). That draft is looking pretty decent a couple years later. Many of us were beating Allen up about it for a while.

McCloughan's biggest hits have been a QB he didn't draft and a running back he didn't draft. Where would he be without Kirk Cousins already on the roster and Robert Kelley not being drafted?

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:when you look at our franchise and where we are after not even 2 full seasons since the end of 2014, there's a huge difference

I know you're making a point here about McCloughan, but I've been thinking lately that Bruce actually deserves some credit for 2014 also. The 2014 season was a disaster, but I'd argue that was kind of unavoidable for a lot of reasons.

Bruce Allen got five starters out of eight picks that year. Murphy, Moses, Long, Breeland and Ryan Grant (who I'm counting as a ST starter). That draft is looking pretty decent a couple years later. Many of us were beating Allen up about it for a while.

McCloughan's biggest hits have been a QB he didn't draft and a running back he didn't draft. Where would he be without Kirk Cousins already on the roster and Robert Kelley not being drafted?

Pretty much. And who was it demanding that Cousins start last year?

Not trying to being critical of McCloughan, because I still like what seems to be his philosophy towards building a roster. I'm just not certain the narrative that he showed up in 2015 and turned the franchise around is completely true. Its looking more to me like that work started the previous draft. Allen and Gruden may deserve as much credit as McCloughan - I don't see that as a bad thing, either.

Who gets credit for Kelley then?

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:Who gets credit for Kelley then?

McCloughan I would think. I like Kelley a lot, but I'm not sure that he's done enough yet to be called one of McCloughan's "biggest hits". Would you?

I guess BGF might be saying he's a big hit because he's an undrafted rookie who worked his way into the starting line-up. That makes sense.

If Kelley puts up 120 yards and two TDs tonight, I will personally declare him "the best Redskin in decades".

McLoughlin gets credit for the whole roster. Even those he did not draft. S. Mac can cut or keep any player he chooses. Even if he didn't draft them not cutting a player is essential approval.
Anyhow Crowder, Scherff, Smith, Cravens , Norman are all good additions.

Gruden and Allen deserve some credit but McCloughan is the biggest reason that this franchise is where it is


BOT - seasons are not 'evaluated' until they are over - it's too early to properly 'evaluate' the last draft

SkinsJock wrote:Gruden and Allen deserve some credit but McCloughan is the biggest reason that this franchise is where it is

How so? I would be very interested to see you back that statement up.

We're in playoff contention for a second straight year because our coach knows how to coach an offense. Giving him "some" credit for that is dense as hell. The main contributors on the team were guys drafted by Allen or Shanahan.

Not trying to bash McCloughan or you, man. I'm just saying that I was personally kind of down on Bruce Allen a year or two ago. I think we have to consider that the Redskins might actually have a pretty decent staff going with SM, Allen and Gruden. If that proves to be true, I think that would be kind of awesome, yeah?

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Gruden and Allen deserve some credit but McCloughan is the biggest reason that this franchise is where it is

How so? I would be very interested to see you back that statement up.

We're in playoff contention for a second straight year because our coach knows how to coach an offense. Giving him "some" credit for that is dense as hell. The main contributors on the team were guys drafted by Allen or Shanahan.

Not trying to bash McCloughan or you, man. I'm just saying that I was personally kind of down on Bruce Allen a year or two ago. I think we have to consider that the Redskins might actually have a pretty decent staff going with SM, Allen and Gruden. If that proves to be true, I think that would be kind of awesome, yeah?

I think Scot has made a HUGE difference here. From a players perspective, since 2014:
OFF: 4 starters from 2014 (i.e., started and continue to since Scot came in)
- 3 of which were NOT drafted by us. TWilliams being the only drafted starter.

DEF: 3 starters from 2014
- 2 of which were drafted by us.
So in summary, of the players that started in 2014 and continue to in 2016, we drafted 3 of them -- TWilliams (2010), Kerrigan (2011), and Breeland (2014). Not sure you can say our drafting skills were in any way good based on those facts.

Now if you look at it another way, we currently have:
OFF: 6 current starters we drafted (i.e., drafted but didn't start pre-Scot):
- 5 of which before Scot (TWill, Long, Reed, Moses, & Cousins).
- The others (except Reed) 3 needed time to develop, roughly about 2-3 years.

DEF: 4 current DEF starters:
- 3 of which were before Scot (Breeland, Kerrigan, Murphy).
- 2 started as a rookie (Breeland, Kerrigan)

So, Scot inherited 7 (of 22 plus special teams) starters he didn't have to develop --- on a team that was 4-12. So he had to find 15 starters by either drafting, FA, or development as well as special teams replacements within a 2 year period. In that time, he cleared out a team that went 4-12, replaced 15 starters, retained a HC that (after a 4-12 season) could have been justifiably fired by a new GM, and supported his decision to not only start Cousins, but stick with him when many many many people were calling for his benching.

After all that, people are complaining that Bruce should be getting more credit?????? Because our OL coach (who Scot hired) developed Long and Moses and Murphy has come around (as a second round pick)..... Scot's drafts haven't even developed yet!!!! The 2014 draft picks of Long, Moses, and Murphy (in their 3rd season) are just starting to contribute now. Scot's earliest drafted players are about 3/4ths thru their second year.

Let's give these players a chance to prove what the 2014 class did before we blame a GM that took a franchise to it's first back-to-back winning seasons (pending we win at least 1 more game this year) for the first time in 20 freaking years. This is the first time in my LIFE I believe this franchise is headed in the right direction. This is the first time I have ever looked at what our GM is doing and understood WHY and seen an actual vision in the process. And the fact Scot has a decent staff ---- IS A CREDIT TO HIM. Not the staff!!!!

"Main contributors" don't make a team. It's the entire puzzle. Each piece matters. If there is ANYTHING a skin fan should know --- it is how important depth is. Before Scot we literally had ZERO depth. Scot has put together "pieces" --- something no one in this franchise has done since Bethard.

markshark84 wrote:Let's give these players a chance to prove what the 2014 class did before we blame a GM that took a franchise to it's first back-to-back winning seasons (pending we win at least 1 more game this year) for the first time in 20 freaking years. This is the first time in my LIFE I believe this franchise is headed in the right direction. This is the first time I have ever looked at what our GM is doing and understood WHY and seen an actual vision in the process. And the fact Scot has a decent staff ---- IS A CREDIT TO HIM. Not the staff!!!!

"Main contributors" don't make a team. It's the entire puzzle. Each piece matters. If there is ANYTHING a skin fan should know --- it is how important depth is. Before Scot we literally had ZERO depth. Scot has put together "pieces" --- something no one in this franchise has done since Bethard.

Good stuff in there, man. I don't disagree at all that Scot has made a big impact here, and I completely agree with your pointing about his "vision" for the team. He clearly has a plan for how a team is built, and I like that he's so willing to stick to his guns on it.

I would add that in my mind, his single biggest contribution so far was backing Gruden on Cousins last year. I have serious doubts that would have happened otherwise.

I'm just taking exception to this idea that McCloughan somehow miraculously turned the team around single-handedly and is responsible for every good thing that has happened. (Seriously, you're crediting him with hiring the offensive line coach????) Sorry, but Morgan Moses didn't become a starter because Scot McCloughan was hired as the GM.

McCloughan has had a huge, positive impact on the team, no doubt. Bigger than Allen or Gruden? Not buying it.

I'm not sure who implied that McCloughan single-handedly made everything happen here - Gruden has done well and Allen has always had a rep as being a great $ guy - McCloughan was instrumental in having a plan and helping put the BPA drafts together, supporting Gruden as HC and doing a great job as GM - without McCloughan, Allen & Snyder would be in charge here - RG3 might still be the QB and Gruden almost certainly would have left

SkinsJock wrote:I'm not sure who implied that McCloughan single-handedly made everything happen here

Me either.

"Gruden and Allen deserve some credit but McCloughan is the biggest reason that this franchise is where it is "

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:I'm not sure who implied that McCloughan single-handedly made everything happen here

Me either.

"Gruden and Allen deserve some credit but McCloughan is the biggest reason that this franchise is where it is "

to further clarify ...

Gruden and Allen deserve some credit but the main reason (NOT the only reason) is because we have Scot McCloughan

no worries ...

riggofan wrote: I'm just taking exception to this idea that McCloughan somehow miraculously turned the team around single-handedly and is responsible for every good thing that has happened. (Seriously, you're crediting him with hiring the offensive line coach????) Sorry, but Morgan Moses didn't become a starter because Scot McCloughan was hired as the GM.

McCloughan has had a huge, positive impact on the team, no doubt. Bigger than Allen or Gruden? Not buying it.

Well, a GM can't coach, play, etc., so no, he isn't given credit for 100%. But he is the architect --- and similarly to beautiful building, generally the construction workers and contractor aren't historically given the credit as to who "made" the building beautiful.... Now, I am NOT AT ALL saying Scot has created a "beautiful" roster, BUT the roster is much better than it was 2 years ago and we are at least a borderline playoff team (opposed to being 4-12). Had Scot not been here, that wouldn't be the case. So, if ANYONE gets the primary credit, it is him; anyone that says otherwise is wrong.

And nothing done by GMs in the NFL is really "miraculous". Scot assembled a team, scouted players, and made good choices. That is it --- but that is something our front office hasn't been able to do in a LONG time.

And Scot is the BOSS of everyone other than the owner. Anyone (non-administrative) below him is his responsibility. Moses was one of the WORST OTs I had seen in 2014. Now he is, while not great, a decent player. His development was attributable to a staff that was assembled by Gruden, who was kept by Scot. If Scot didn't want Callahan --- he'd be gone. Callahan is who developed Moses and Long, but Scot is still the "architect".

Also --- I think SkinsJock has you on his comment above.....