The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I'm sure many will have their own worthy topics so I'll just bring up what I saw as the key play of the game.

2-16-WAS44
(12:31) (Shotgun) K.Cousins pass incomplete deep right to D.Jackson. PENALTY on CLE-J.Haden, Defensive Pass Interference, 21 yards, enforced at WAS 44 - No Play.

I thought this PI call was a gift from the refs. We were losing, the momentum had shifted, and a no-call has us facing 3rd-and-16 with a punt likely to an offense that was running on us.

The good news is, we took advantage of this gift.

A 'Win' due to three turnovers isn't the convincing victory we need. But, that interception by Norman was a thing of beauty.

I know our defense is atrocious right now, but this is the 2nd "team win" in a row. I find that very encouraging. I think our many years of sucking under Snyder's ownership has gotten us so disillusioned that many fans cannot see positives, even after a win. This team stepped up when it needed to. I like that.

DarthMonk wrote:I'm sure many will have their own worthy topics so I'll just bring up what I saw as the key play of the game.

2-16-WAS44
(12:31) (Shotgun) K.Cousins pass incomplete deep right to D.Jackson. PENALTY on CLE-J.Haden, Defensive Pass Interference, 21 yards, enforced at WAS 44 - No Play.

I thought this PI call was a gift from the refs.

That was definitely a gift. The defender had position and was playing the ball. If anything, it was offensive PI. But there was a defensive hold, when Jackson made his out and up move, that would have given us a 1st down, albeit without the yardage. And, it's not like the Browns weren't the recipients of a few calls of their own. There was a holding call on a textbook block by Scherff, that negated an important, first down, screen pass (though we picked up the first, anyway, a couple of plays later). Then there was Norman's unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for his "archer" pose. Overall, I didn't feel like any particular calls influenced the outcome of the game. To me, it was the turnovers, as is often the case, that were the deciding factor in this game.

What's up with all the Browns fans, and fans of other teams, complaining about the Duke Johnson fumble? They're claiming he was standing outside the pile with the ball and that it wasn't a fumble at all.

StorminMormon86 wrote:I know our defense is atrocious right now, but this is the 2nd "team win" in a row. I find that very encouraging. I think our many years of sucking under Snyder's ownership has gotten us so disillusioned that many fans cannot see positives, even after a win. This team stepped up when it needed to. I like that.

Deadskins wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:I'm sure many will have their own worthy topics so I'll just bring up what I saw as the key play of the game.

2-16-WAS44
(12:31) (Shotgun) K.Cousins pass incomplete deep right to D.Jackson. PENALTY on CLE-J.Haden, Defensive Pass Interference, 21 yards, enforced at WAS 44 - No Play.

I thought this PI call was a gift from the refs.

That was definitely a gift. The defender had position and was playing the ball. If anything, it was offensive PI. But there was a defensive hold when Jackson made his out and up move, that would have given us a 1st down, albeit without the yardage. And, it's not like the Browns weren't the recipients of a few calls of their own. There was a holding call on a textbook block by Scherff, that negated an important, first down, screen pass (though we picked up the first, anyway, a couple of plays later). Overall, I didn't feel like any particular calls influenced the outcome of the game. To me it was the turnovers, as is often the case, that were the deciding factor in this game.

Agree with this. The PI call, if not PI, would have been DEF holding and an auto 1st. Even the announcers said the Scherff "holding" was a bad call. There were a couple other bad calls that didn't go our way. The OFF PI on Reed in the RZ was a bad call considering the fact he was penalized for something Pryor was doing ALL game to Norman. Regardless, officiating only affects games in VERY RARE cases. If we had lost, it would not have been a direct result of officiating.

In terms of the actual game --- our weaknesses are still very much on the DEF side. Our DEF continued to have serious issues getting off the field (only 1 punt the entire game by CLE). CLE still amassed 380 total yards and 5.8 yards per rush --- which is putrid. I am not a fan of the "bend but not break" DEF. Our DEF was able to get some TOs, which was their salvation (similarly to last week). If they can continue to get 3 TOs per game, I'd be happy --- but we can't continue to rely on the fact our DEF will get TOs instead of actually stopping our opponents.

For the OFF, we were better in the RZ, albeit against one of the worst RZ DEFs in the NFL, but it was still better. Our running game was the best we have seen it this year, albeit against a bottom tier rushing DEF ---- but we also saw what a rushing game does for our OFF and effectiveness in the RZ. We only had one 3&out --- but even that was "forced" because we were trying to run the clock down/burn TOs to end the game. All our scoring drives (except the last) were 75+ yards. We won TOP. We scored 30+ points, which we only did 5 times last year. Cousins had an ok game, nothing special --- but the nice thing was it didn't have to be; which is a rarity. He didn't make any long throws (outside of the 2 PI calls), but again, didn't have to. His QBR was 66.2 --- and continues to make his way up the chain in that stat.

All in all a solid effort by the OFF, a mediocre (at best) one by the DEF. Had this not been against the worst team in the NFL, I'd be more excited, but it's a W nonetheless.

Victory!

markshark84 wrote:The OFF PI on Reed in the RZ was a bad call ...

A truly horrible call.

I think we are reaching the point where Joe Berry needs to go, this bend but don't break defense doesn't work. The top teams in the league over the past few years have been teams with top Defenses and average offenses with a couple exceptions. Barry had his chance, that chance is coming to an end

Prowl33 wrote:I think we are reaching the point where Joe Berry needs to go, this bend but don't break defense doesn't work. The top teams in the league over the past few years have been teams with top Defenses and average offenses with a couple exceptions. Barry had his chance, that chance is coming to an end

Everybody in the universe knew we needed d-line help this offseason, and we did nothing about it.

Damn. Nothing exasperates me more than that. Here's what WashPost insider had to say about the defense today:

"Washington’s defensive linemen don’t shed blocks. They don’t shove blockers back into running lanes. They get knocked back and backs dart by for five, six, seven yards, or more. Washington’s linebackers have seemed to react slowly, both against the run, and the pass. Tight ends ran free and didn’t get tackled until eight to 10 yards downfield. Players say they have to keep working and get better. But it’s just a fact that they have their limitations. Joe Barry has put more men on the line, and brought a safety into the box to help the inside linebackers. But players aren’t making plays, Ricky Jean Francois admitted. He blamed poor fundamentals, but said it’s not the coaches’ fault, because they have instructed day in and day out."

riggofan wrote:Damn. Nothing exasperates me more than that. Here's what WashPost insider had to say about the defense today:

"Washington’s defensive linemen don’t shed blocks. They don’t shove blockers back into running lanes. They get knocked back and backs dart by for five, six, seven yards, or more. Washington’s linebackers have seemed to react slowly, both against the run, and the pass. Tight ends ran free and didn’t get tackled until eight to 10 yards downfield. Players say they have to keep working and get better. But it’s just a fact that they have their limitations. Joe Barry has put more men on the line, and brought a safety into the box to help the inside linebackers. But players aren’t making plays, Ricky Jean Francois admitted. He blamed poor fundamentals, but said it’s not the coaches’ fault, because they have instructed day in and day out."

So to me that's still the coaching. What areally they doing at practice every day to where it doesn't translate to the field? Maybe talent is a portion of it, but coaches out there have done much more withan much less than what we have.

Prowl33 wrote:

riggofan wrote:Damn. Nothing exasperates me more than that. Here's what WashPost insider had to say about the defense today:

"Washington’s defensive linemen don’t shed blocks. They don’t shove blockers back into running lanes. They get knocked back and backs dart by for five, six, seven yards, or more. Washington’s linebackers have seemed to react slowly, both against the run, and the pass. Tight ends ran free and didn’t get tackled until eight to 10 yards downfield. Players say they have to keep working and get better. But it’s just a fact that they have their limitations. Joe Barry has put more men on the line, and brought a safety into the box to help the inside linebackers. But players aren’t making plays, Ricky Jean Francois admitted. He blamed poor fundamentals, but said it’s not the coaches’ fault, because they have instructed day in and day out."

So to me that's still the coaching. What areally they doing at practice every day to where it doesn't translate to the field? Maybe talent is a portion of it, but coaches out there have done much more withan much less than what we have.

Seriously? Ricky Jean Francois is 29 years old, playing in his eighth season in the NFL. You think Joe Barry, the guy in charge of the ENTIRE defense, needs to coach that grown ass man how to tackle?

Sorry man. I usually appreciate your comments on here, just personally have no patience for the blame the coordinator stuff. Blaming the coordinator for these guys not stopping the run, not getting to the QB makes about as much sense as giving him credit for all of the takeaways. Players make plays or don't.

Prowl33 wrote:I think we are reaching the point where Joe Berry needs to go, this bend but don't break defense doesn't work. The top teams in the league over the past few years have been teams with top Defenses and average offenses with a couple exceptions. Barry had his chance, that chance is coming to an end

As I have been saying since day 1, our DEF is a mess. I don't think anyone could have anticipated we'd be an above average or even average DEF coming into the year. It doesn't appear that Barry has done a good job (or just doesn't have talent), but these types of things are hard to tell. I can sit here and spout off dozens upon dozens of bad play calls by our OC this season, but can't really do that for the DC --- because it is extremely difficult to do. Is it our playcalling/coaching or simply because we lack the talent???? IMHO, it is a little of both, but more because we lack the ability to pass-rush.

This all being said ---- is there anyone else out there that could come in tomorrow, learn the players, scheme, etc. and do a better job? In reality, it couldn't be anyone external to the organization. The only real candidates current on staff are Manusky or Fewell. Due to the fact we are into the season and from a HC perspective, you would also have to be 100% confident they would be better. I don't see that. Now, if 7-8 games pass and we are out of contention or close to it, make the move.

But right now --- let's try our best to not make the same Danny boy mistakes this franchise has been doing (up until Scot got here) for 20 years and instead simply.not.panic.

Last week the defense held the Giants to 6 points in the 2nd half. This week they held the Browns to 3.

And...we want to fire Joe Barry?

StorminMormon86 wrote:Last week the defense held the Giants to 6 points in the 2nd half. This week they held the Browns to 3.

And...we want to fire Joe Barry?

Conversely, we gave up 21 in the first half to the Giants, and 17 (albeit with a turnover deep in our territory) in the first half to the Browns. Overall, we're 29th in defense in yards per game given up, 22nd in passer rating against, 30th in rushing defense by yards, 31st in yards per carry, 26th in points against. It's an awful defense.

And in every game so far, our defense can't finish tackles, and there always seems to be someone open on passing plays. Cody Kessler looked like anything but a 3rd round rookie QB for most of the game out there yesterday.

Do you think the talent on this defense is worst 3-4 in the league bad? Because that's what they are. Not saying we fire Barry during the season, but he's done zero to convince me that he's an actual, capable NFL defensive coordinator.

Maybe I'm wrong here... but like with most sports skills, you have it but unless constantly worked on you can lose it. Aaron Rodgers can make any throw on the field, but if he had a coach change up how he trains, his routine, purse together a poor scheme, and does nothing to instill confidence, do you think Roger's would have a drop off in his completion %, increase interceptions, get sacked more, etc...

I know they are different things, but if you aren't practicing the techniques the right way, taking proper pursuit angles, shedding blocks at the right time, etc, then you're gonna get caught with your pants down frequently.

PulpExposure wrote:Not saying we fire Barry during the season, but he's done zero to convince me that he's an actual, capable NFL defensive coordinator.

Are we going to excuse the injuries piling up, as well as a lack of talent on our front 7, or is that Barry's fault too?

I am puzzled by the defensive front line, I don't blame Barry but there is a deficiency in one of the those three and Barry has to apply a bandaide by putting another body in there. When one of the middle linebackers is set over just a few feet to cover then there is a gap or passing lane. Other teams' offensive playcallers have figured out how to manipulate that middle linebacker.
I didn't hear Preston Smiths' name called (I was traveling and couldn't watch the game), did he play at all?

PulpExposure wrote:Do you think the talent on this defense is worst 3-4 in the league bad? Because that's what they are. Not saying we fire Barry during the season, but he's done zero to convince me that he's an actual, capable NFL defensive coordinator.

I'm just not sure where you see all of the talent on our defense right now. I'm pretty sure we have exactly one first rounder on the field. I love Chris Baker, but the guy was a UDFA from Hampton. We picked up our 35 year old nose tackle off the street in week 2. There are literally THREE players that we drafted starting on this defense. With the exception of Norman, the rest of the D are mostly journeyman players. I don't know if its the worst roster in the league, but it ain't good.

Compare that with the offense. We started NINE players on Sunday that we drafted. The other two guys were DeSean and Pierre. Not exactly scrubs. I think eight of those nine were drafted in the fourth round or higher including two first round o-line guys.

Not pointing this out to excuse anyone. I'm just saying I thinks its very difficult and unfair to judge Barry either way. That defensive roster was just as bad or worse last year, and they found a way to win more than they lost.

I'd be a lot more critical of Barry if he was coaching the Jets' defense and getting these results.

At this point it's hard to judge whether it's primarily a coaching issue or talent issue.

Irn-Bru wrote:At this point it's hard to judge whether it's primarily a coaching issue or talent issue.

Exactly. And I'm not ruling out that it could be both! Just don't see how you look at this defense right now and decide a DC change would affect it much either way.

I agree with you both - but the majority of fans are convinced that we need to make big changes here in order to get better results

I just hope that Danny lets McCloughan continue to do his thing here without any interference

he needs a couple of years more, at least, to undo 2 decades of Snyder's stupidity

most Redskins fans will not accept that that is what it will take to fix things here

PulpExposure wrote: Conversely, we gave up 21 in the first half to the Giants, and 17 (albeit with a turnover deep in our territory) in the first half to the Browns. Overall, we're 29th in defense in yards per game given up, 22nd in passer rating against, 30th in rushing defense by yards, 31st in yards per carry, 26th in points against. It's an awful defense.

All good points. The numbers say we are bottom dweller DEF. But numbers don't tell us why. More analysis must be done, but I don't think we have the information necessary to make that type of determination after only 4 games.

PulpExposure wrote: And in every game so far, our defense can't finish tackles, and there always seems to be someone open on passing plays.

I think a good deal of the poor tackling has to do with our DEF trying to get strips. We are #1 in FF, but I'd prefer that we actually tackle correctly.

PulpExposure wrote: Do you think the talent on this defense is worst 3-4 in the league bad? Because that's what they are. Not saying we fire Barry during the season, but he's done zero to convince me that he's an actual, capable NFL defensive coordinator.

I'd say there are a couple 3-4s vying for WORST, but we are one of them. It's difficult to say who is "the worst". That being said, I have maintained and will continue to do so that we are a bottom 3 DEF.

When it comes to top tier talent, we have Norman and Kerrigan, that is it. We have solid talent in Breeland, Murphy, and Smith. Cravens appears to be solid also but he's a rookie. The rest --- DHall, Bruton, Dunbar, Foster, Compton, Hood, Golston, Baker, Jean Francios, Blackmon, Bates, Phillips, Ihenacho are all expendable. I like some of these guys, but I wouldn't put any of them in a "talented" or "strong starter" category.

Now, does Barry have enough to not have a bottom 3 DEF? I would think so, but not by much. However, this is a very difficult thing to judge. I am in the camp that a DEF is only as good as their pass rush. The DL controls what a DEF is capable of. This is proven by taking the top pass rush DEFs and comparing against DEF PPG allowed. This list is almost identical: MN, DEN, SEA, BUF, HOU, NE. PHI (when considering they have had 100 less DEF snaps than the average NFL DEF this season). Now do I think we have a bottom 3 DL talent-wise --- I do. Still not a fan of Barry (never was, and I don't think many were) and if this keeps up, I think he'll be gone by years end. I just wish back in the day we were able to convince Wade Phillips to be our DC!!!! He was my outspoken choice (as stated on this forum) as far back as 2010 and more recently beginning in 2014.