The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

An interesting read about the between the ears part of playing QB and how Kirk is progressing. ey talks about these things also but the pictures make it easier to appreciate the importance of a QB really understanding the defense and his offense.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2576280-kirk-cousins-showing-the-progress-rg3-didnt-make-for-washington-redskins

I'm not sure it should be called progress. Cousins was already capable of doing what he's doing. He did it at the collegiate level. The one area he appears to have progressed in is in making better decisions with the football but it's not as though there's a track record of progress there either.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:I'm not sure it should be called progress. Cousins was already capable of doing what he's doing. He did it at the collegiate level.

Doing ANYTHING at the college level does NOT mean you can simply do it at the pro level. Especially when it comes to reads, adjustments, and the like. Making and understanding that transition IS progress.

Come on now.

markshark84 wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:I'm not sure it should be called progress. Cousins was already capable of doing what he's doing. He did it at the collegiate level.

Doing ANYTHING at the college level does NOT mean you can simply do it at the pro level. Especially when it comes to reads, adjustments, and the like. Making and understanding that transition IS progress.

Come on now.

The ability to read progressions and defenses isn't progress. Cousins could do those things from day one. So can any legitimate pocket passer at the pro level. It's not something a player learns once he gets to the NFL. That's why a lot of people who actually know about the quarterback position were opposed to drafting RGIII. The adjustment is to the speed of the game. Defensive backs are faster and passing windows are smaller. The interception issue is (or was) a result of that, and again, I concede progress in that regard. The rest of it, not so much. Cousins appears to have known the playbook before ever taking a snap as the starting quarterback. RGIII still doesn't.

The B1G may be a better defensive league than some others and MSU ran a pro style offense so he had a better training ground than others like Griffin but NFL defenses and offenses are much more complex so Kirk has had take a big step up to function and he continues to learn. The Shannys and others familiar with him say he processes things quickly so he can run a pro offense but Cousins says himself that he continues to learn and has learned by failures as well as successes. It takes several seasons of play to really master things hopefully he will continue to develop and have enough success to warrant further investment by the Skins.

After 4 games I am very pleased with his progress. Obviously the team around him is better then in 2014 or 2013 but Cousins seems better, much better. By my lights he even showed growth in the two games he made mistakes because he continued to play after mistakes and finished the games better than he started. In the Rams and Eagles games he performed at a pretty high level, especially in the Eagles game since the run game was bogged down.

He's 1/4 through his first season as the starter with his team 2-2 after 1 poor performance (Giants), 1 fair (Dolphins), 1 good (Rams) and 1 very good (Eagles). I think the Skins would be 3-1 if Jackson hadn't got hurt, I think they would have won the Miami game with Jackson healthy. Cousins and the Skins are going to face some really tough tests during the next 1/4 of the season hopefully Kirk can keep focused and improve enough to win a game or two. I think if the Skins are 3-5 or 4-4 at the halfway mark Kirk will finish strong during the second half of the year if Jackson returns strong and the others receivers perform also.

[quote="OldSchool] I think if the Skins are 3-5 or 4-4 at the halfway mark Kirk will finish strong during the second half of the year if Jackson returns strong and the others receivers perform also.[/quote]

I think you are Kirk's mommy.

3/5 or 4/4 is doable, beating both the Jets and Tampons is more than likely.

OldSchool wrote:An interesting read about the between the ears part of playing QB and how Kirk is progressing. ey talks about these things also but the pictures make it easier to appreciate the importance of a QB really understanding the defense and his offense.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2576280-kirk-cousins-showing-the-progress-rg3-didnt-make-for-washington-redskins

That was a good article. I didn't realize that Cousins had made adjustments to both the line and WR routes on the game-winning TD. Good stuff.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:I'm not sure it should be called progress. Cousins was already capable of doing what he's doing. He did it at the collegiate level. The one area he appears to have progressed in is in making better decisions with the football but it's not as though there's a track record of progress there either.

Cousins himself said that he wouldn't have been able to lead that game-winning drive in his rookie year, and that everything he's learned since then made it happen. That is pretty much the definition of progress, and I sincerely doubt he would just make up an idea like that for no reason.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:I'm not sure it should be called progress. Cousins was already capable of doing what he's doing. He did it at the collegiate level.

Doing ANYTHING at the college level does NOT mean you can simply do it at the pro level. Especially when it comes to reads, adjustments, and the like. Making and understanding that transition IS progress.

Come on now.

The ability to read progressions and defenses isn't progress. Cousins could do those things from day one. So can any legitimate pocket passer at the pro level. It's not something a player learns once he gets to the NFL. That's why a lot of people who actually know about the quarterback position were opposed to drafting RGIII. The adjustment is to the speed of the game. Defensive backs are faster and passing windows are smaller. The interception issue is (or was) a result of that, and again, I concede progress in that regard. The rest of it, not so much. Cousins appears to have known the playbook before ever taking a snap as the starting quarterback. RGIII still doesn't.

Obviously, since anyone who can't is automatically not a legit NFL pocket passer.

OldSchool wrote:An interesting read about the between the ears part of playing QB and how Kirk is progressing. ey talks about these things also but the pictures make it easier to appreciate the importance of a QB really understanding the defense and his offense.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2576280-kirk-cousins-showing-the-progress-rg3-didnt-make-for-washington-redskins

We all know that Kirk is better suited to run a traditional west coast offense.

Kirk is the starter now and the team seems to be behind him. I still am not sold on Gruden. Yes we won. But we could have won by a lot more. That is a part of growing pains and coaching.
We beat a Philly team thats a mess and whose roster has been rearranged just this off season. Lets not act like we beat New England or something. We all got a win but lets get a grip here.

We are facing a very good team this week the Atlanta Falcons. Lets see how we do against the Falcons.


Griffin still has a playoff appearance under his belt. And was doing well against a Seattle team that eventually won a SuperBowl.

So you can keep bashing Griffin all you like. He still has the better resume.

We beat a Good Rams team the main contributer being Matt Jones. We now beat a terrible Philly team with Kirk leading the charge.

What I want to see is if Kirk can win us the Division. If he can do that Ill be a believer.

Great article. It's essentially echoing the same exact thing C00ley has been saying for the past year or so. And pretty much every NFL pundit who's actually played the quarterback position.

Griffin still has a playoff appearance under his belt. And was doing well against a Seattle team that eventually won a SuperBowl.

So you can keep bashing Griffin all you like. He still has the better resume.

If that's case....Tebow has a playoff win, does that make his "resume" better than those who don't?
You completely ignore 2013 and 14...they don't count?

Irn-Bru wrote:Cousins himself said that he wouldn't have been able to lead that game-winning drive in his rookie year, and that everything he's learned since then made it happen. That is pretty much the definition of progress, and I sincerely doubt he would just make up an idea like that for no reason.

I'm sure Cousins is being honest. I'm also sure Bleacher Report is calling several aspects of his game progress which are things he's done all along. And leaving out things which actually are areas of progress. Identifying matchups is not an area of progress. Kirk could do it when he got to the NFL. RGIII couldn't. Ditto better mechanics. RGIII was never a pocket passer Ditto adjusting to pressure which comes from the ability to read defenses.

What Kirk has progressed with that wasn't mentioned in the article are things like his mental clock, the ability to audible, knowing the safe window into which he can place a pass, leading his receivers in such a manner as only they have a play on the ball. He hasn't been under much pressure this season. A 90 yard game winning drive is pressure, yes, but he's not taking several sacks a game or being hurried every other passing play. His protection has been stellar. How he performs when it is less than stellar will say more about his progress than how he performs under a virtually perfect pocket on every passing attempt.

If Reed is lost, Cousins loses a HUGE security blanket... A WCO QB who does not have a "go-to" TE is at a disadvantage.
That said, I have to say I am very impressed with Cousins continued development. His game Sunday... And the last drive, in particular, was very Favre-like. He had a clear mastery of the O, and played it like a fine violin in that last drive, adding a little "force of will" to boot. Granted... The run game made it easy to pass, but, still... Maybe it will prove to be his "break through" game.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:The ability to read progressions and defenses isn't progress. Cousins could do those things from day one. So can any legitimate pocket passer at the pro level. It's not something a player learns once he gets to the NFL.

Incorrect.

The defensive schemes utilized in the NFL are FAR FAR FAR more complex than the college level. It's not even close. Again, the fact you can go thru progressions and read DEFs in college does not mean you are capable of doing so in the NFL. Sorry, but it is just not that simplistic.

markshark84 wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:The ability to read progressions and defenses isn't progress. Cousins could do those things from day one. So can any legitimate pocket passer at the pro level. It's not something a player learns once he gets to the NFL.

Incorrect.

The defensive schemes utilized in the NFL are FAR FAR FAR more complex than the college level. It's not even close. You are simplifying this too much.

I'm not sure I agree it's not even close. I'll grant most college teams don't place an emphasis on defense but the basic alignments and schemes are the same. 4-3 base, 3-4 base, man, zone, man/zone, man under, cover two, cover one, cover zero, etc. I think what's different is the speed of the game. D1 schools aren't exactly drawing plays in the dirt. Well, maybe a few of them are. But as a rule, not so much.

Countertrey wrote:If Reed is lost, Cousins loses a HUGE security blanket... A WCO QB who does not have a "go-to" TE is at a disadvantage.

Totally agree, CT. I'm not quite sure what they're going to do without Reed.

riggofan wrote:

Countertrey wrote:If Reed is lost, Cousins loses a HUGE security blanket... A WCO QB who does not have a "go-to" TE is at a disadvantage.

Totally agree, CT. I'm not quite sure what they're going to do without Reed.

Trade Roberts for a tight end.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

riggofan wrote:

Countertrey wrote:If Reed is lost, Cousins loses a HUGE security blanket... A WCO QB who does not have a "go-to" TE is at a disadvantage.

Totally agree, CT. I'm not quite sure what they're going to do without Reed.

Trade Roberts for a tight end.

That would be great if they could make it happen. I don't understand your eye roll though. Do you mean its obvious what should be done? Or do you mean a trade like that is a ridiculous idea?

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:The ability to read progressions and defenses isn't progress. Cousins could do those things from day one. So can any legitimate pocket passer at the pro level. It's not something a player learns once he gets to the NFL.

Incorrect.

The defensive schemes utilized in the NFL are FAR FAR FAR more complex than the college level. It's not even close. You are simplifying this too much.

I'm not sure I agree it's not even close. I'll grant most college teams don't place an emphasis on defense but the basic alignments and schemes are the same. 4-3 base, 3-4 base, man, zone, man/zone, man under, cover two, cover one, cover zero, etc. I think what's different is the speed of the game. D1 schools aren't exactly drawing plays in the dirt. Well, maybe a few of them are. But as a rule, not so much.

While the schemes may be similar the biggest difference is that the NFL is much better at disguising their schemes and coverages.

riggofan wrote:That would be great if they could make it happen. I don't understand your eye roll though. Do you mean its obvious what should be done? Or do you mean a trade like that is a ridiculous idea?

I mean I don't think anyone is desperate enough to trade for a receiver who can't catch. We can always hope.

DEHog wrote:While the schemes may be similar the biggest difference is that the NFL is much better at disguising their schemes and coverages.

True, and they are faster at recovering from mistakes. I'm not saying Kirk hasn't made any progress although it apparently came off that way. I'm just saying they're comparing Kirk, who has always been a true pocket passer, to RGIII who never was one and never will be one, and then claiming that Kirk is showing progress RGIII didn't make. Kirk is showing skills RGIII never had to have and therefore never learned. Kirk never had the option of getting by strictly on pure athleticism.

I hate those kinds of breakdowns as the author was selecting certain plays and highlighting what went right or went wrong. There's a lot of selection bias there. For example, why didn't the author pick the play against the Giants last week where Cousins rolled out and threw a pick right into coverage?

Let's put the brakes on the Cousins hype train. Yes, he's better than last year, but let's see him string together at least two (and I dunno, maybe even 4!) games in a row where he isn't turning the the ball over like it's Christmas. So far he's followed one good game with a bad game. That's just not production you can win consistently with. I do recognize he's better, but uneven play does not make a capable NFL quarterback.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:
I'm not sure I agree it's not even close. I'll grant most college teams don't place an emphasis on defense but the basic alignments and schemes are the same. 4-3 base, 3-4 base, man, zone, man/zone, man under, cover two, cover one, cover zero, etc. I think what's different is the speed of the game. D1 schools aren't exactly drawing plays in the dirt. Well, maybe a few of them are. But as a rule, not so much.

I understand what you are saying, but, again, it is just not that simple. Basic alignments and where players are standing pre-snap mean very little in the NFL defensive structure (which is why there is so much more pre-snap motion in the NFL) and a QBs ability to read a DEF or go thru progressions (which may need to be adjusted pre-snap or change post-snap --- which is part of the difference). The schemes in the NFL are incredibly more complex with disguised packages, switches, cheats, substitutions, and the like --- that you never ever see in college. The difference between the two is substantial.

And as far as basic alignments ---- the NFL defenses you see in Madden NFL 20whatever aren't the ones actually run in the NFL.... Most casual NFL FANS (forget players) can spot a 4-3, 3-4, man, zone, cover 2, etc. Those packages have basically nothing to do with whether a QB can go thru progressions or read defenses. That type of identication is literally not even pre-school level stuff to NFL QBs.

The college and NFL are becoming different games due to the complexity of the NFL and lack of talent at the college level to execute it --- which is one of the reasons GMs have said it is becoming increasingly more difficult to predict QB success post-college.

Again --- reading a DEF isn't as simple as idenfying whether a DEF is in a cover 2 ---- and no college QBs come into the NFL day 1 having NFL-level ability to read NFL defenses at a level of complexity they have never experienced. So the fact Cousins can go thru progressions and read an NFL DEF is progress from his college days. This isn't even debatable.