The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:51 pm**

With all the controversy and debate I thought it would be good to discuss not just who we want to win the QB job or just the stats, but specifically why these 2 quarterbacks are in the situations they are in now, what it will take for either to succeed, and why you think the one you like will take the reign.

First when I look at Cousins, he has shown glimpses of extreme talent in the pocket with his quickness, accuracy, arm strength, and decision making. Yet when given the chance, and regardless of the circumstances around him, he has not run away with the job. We have seen in the league many backup qbs get their shot on the field and they never give it back. Cousins seems to be a when it rains it pours type of QB when it comes to the mistakes, and given his inexperience and lack of time on the field both practice and in game, has not really found his groove yet. To be honest he kind of reminds me of Eli Manning a little, quiet and timid, can make the big plays but when he gets in a slump he cant seem to play out of it, but when hes hot the opposing team better watch out.

Cousins I think will benefit from a good QB coach, and really he is a player that just needs the reps in order to get better. Some players may do ok by just studying film and playing with the scout team... but Kirk seems to be a guy that just needs to experience it all and grow as he goes.

Now Robert oh Robert. The man takes us to a division win im his rookie year, sets a few NFL rookie records, wims rookie of the year, and breaks a bunch of Redskins team records. Then really he gets in his own way. Shanahan comfirmed a lot we have heard over the years from anonymous players and sources, and even named sources that have interacted with him. Robert thinks he is better than he actually is... which is hard to do because he is so talented. He focuses on his brand, he alienates himself from his team mates, he thinks he can jump in right away and be Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers in the pocket, when his entire football life he has never been a pocket passer. In his press conferences he words everything as the team or coach... he rarely takes soul ownership of anything.

If Robert can flush his ego down the toilet, be one of the guys, be all in to do what the coaches want him to do, and study film and the playbook the way he needs to, he can turn his career around quick, even going back to his 2012 form. Shanahan said it best... even in the read option, they dont need Robert stretching run plays to 7, 12, 20+ yards... sure if its wide open then go, of its a playoff game on the line then go, otherwise the point of the read option is the threat of the run... it simplifies defenses and makes the passing game easy... imagine if we had a good offensive line, garcon, desean, roberts, and jordan reed in 2012. imagine if our defense wasnt terrible... We could repeat 2012 with a good offensive plan and a bought in RG3.

The answer is, if RG can get out of his own way... he is all we need. If he cant, then Cousins is our man.

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:26 pm**

It's really simple - some Cousins' fans are just prejudiced against RG3 - we don't see many Griffin fans that are prejudiced against Cousins

why is that? I like both QBs and I hope that 1 can be a franchise QB here, both are talented QBs

I'm biased I guess, but only because I think Griffin has the higher ceiling not because I don't like Cousins - I do

I think that there are a number of fans that are prejudiced against RG3 because they don't want to see him succeed - that's a shame

we have 2 potentially good NFL QBs here - I hope that both elevate their games because we could sure use a great starting QB and a really good backup QB - IMO Griffin has the more upside and Cousins will be great in a supporting role

but, I'm not prejudiced .... try convincing the anti Griffin crowd ... :lol:

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:02 pm**

I think Robert has a much higher ceiling and I would rather see him be the quarterback. I'm not as much of a fan of Kirk maybe that be I'm not as familiar with his college play, when he gets the chance to start he has been mostly bad, with a few good games. Maybe I'm not much of a fan of Kirk because the media and fans trying to create a bandwagon with him (AKA get rid of Robert). I personally hope Kirk gets traded for a solid pick this April (If you can't get anything keep him obviously). After that sign a reasonable back up for Robert.

Its been told my Robert to not focus on his brand and social media. He's taking steps in the right direction but he is walking on egg shells. So he is going to have to figure something out with that. Its almost a curse he did so well his rookie year.

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:17 pm**

SkinsJock wrote:It's really simple - some Cousins' fans are just prejudiced against RG3 - we don't see many Griffin fans that are prejudiced against Cousins

I don't know if prejudiced is the right word, but I do agree with the sentiment. It does seem like most of the pro-Cousins people are just completely done with Griffin and want to see him gone. End of story.

My concern with RGIII is that I'm not sure at this point he can be successful in Washington. He needs time, patience from fans and coaches and seems to have a lot of learning still ahead of him. For a number of reasons - but mainly injury issues - he doesn't seem to be all that close to being the pro-style QB we need. Going into his fourth year with the team, I just think the clock is running out on him.

Honestly what I think he needs is some big time help from the team around him. A much improved defense, more wins from the team, etc; I think that would buy him some time to develop. Another 4-12 season that looks anything like last year? I think he would be done.

I'm sure Cousins' ceiling is probably lower than Griffin's, but I think they could fix the issues with his game more easily and he would be at least a capable QB.

Anyway, just my opinion. We'll see what happens.

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:51 pm**

Not sure we needed another thread for this topic…For me it’s pretty simple I think the common sentiment about RG and Kirk is to build a supporting cast around them. If/when that happened I think Cousins gives us the best chance to win. I think Griffin is a project who at best may become the dreaded “game manager”. Kirk is way away of Griffin when it comes to playing in a traditional NFL offense.

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:40 pm**

My main issue with the two sides of the argument is simple: the anti-Cousins side is quick to point out that Kirk has squandered every opportunity he's ever had in a total of 9 games. But Griffin, who has looked a lot worse than Cousins since 2012, continues the Jason Campbell treatment. I'm actually amazed that there aren't more, "best man wins open competition" fans.

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:50 pm**

I agree with the thought that based on what we've seen and read, Cousins is the more likely to become a better NFL QB - while Griffin is less likely to 'succeed' here, he has the higher ceiling - he's a better athlete than Cousins

I'm still pulling for RG3 because he's the underdog IMO and I really can't stand most of the guys that just plain don't like Griffin :lol:

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:50 pm**

SkinsJock wrote:I agree with the thought that based on what we've seen and read, Cousins is the more likely to become a better NFL QB - while Griffin is less likely to 'succeed' here, he has the higher ceiling - he's a better athlete than Cousins

I'm still pulling for RG3 because he's the underdog IMO and I really can't stand most of the guys that just plain don't like Griffin

Honestly, I don't think either is the guy for us. And I'm not sure why you think Cousins is likely to become a better NFL QB; he panics in crunch time and throws bad INTs. That's pretty much the worst attributes to have in a quarterback. RG3 is all sizzle (potential), no steak (production) at this point.

It's pretty grim right now.

Posted: **Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:26 pm**

Pulp - I'm only putting down what many here are saying - Griffin has a lot more to overcome according to these guys ...

From what we've heard and from what we've seen (the Tampa game film was very revealing) Griffin is maybe not making the progression

hey! - I want Griffin to become a good NFL QB because IMO he's more likely to be better - that's simple ... :lol:

OK people - we've got Cousins and we've got Griffin - if both were to play lights out at QB, which one do you think is more of an offensive weapon and offensive leader? ... case closed .... :wink:

the problem is - they both need to make huge improvements in their game to be that guy ...

Posted: **Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:37 pm**

I'm sorry but whoever does not see a bias against Cousins or animosity towards him is blind. The way I see it the RG3 fans love to hate Cousins and quickly throw out his INT's. Cousins's fans love to throw out RG3's failure to stay healthy and him not being a pocket passer.

My take: if the team is going to run a college style scheme then RG3 needs to start and run it. Problem: RG3 does not want to run a college style offense.

If the team is going to stick with Gruden's pro WCO style scheme then Cousins or McCoy is who we need to QB this team. RG3 will need in my opinion if not 2 maybe 3 more years learning to be a pocket passer.... footwork, drop step, internal clock, pocket comfort, and reps, reps, reps to get comfortable. We have given him 3 yrs already and he has not gotten better.

Cousins simply needs to work on looking before he throws the ball to a receiver. That can be fixed by watching film and seeing what went wrong.

My biggest complaint........

RG3 fans quickly throw out Cousins INT's, but overlook RG3's similar numbers in fumbles. One QB knows to step up in the pocket the other panics and either backs up further for the sack or leaves the pocket all together and gets sacked or injured.

Since the team, I guess, is not going back to a college style offense I'd play Cousins and either make RG3 the back up till he's comfortable (which is very unlikely to happen) or trade away RG3 for whatever we can get. Keep McCoy and Cousins, let them battle for the starting job and draft a late round or undrafted QB for the practice squad to develop over time. When the OL is straightened out then think QB or keep McCoy/Cousins if they are working out.

As someone else stated this whole RG3 situation is De Ja Vu to Jason Cambles situation. No OL, early in his career injury, not a pocket passer, and the team is holding on to him for too long simply because of how much we gave up for him.

Posted: **Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:17 pm**

Its like this with me...im tired of losing. Dont care which qb it is but the last qb we won with on the roster, infact the ONLY one has been Rg3. Blah blah blah 2012 yes two years ago, but the last full game Kirk Cousins won was in 2012 as well.

Both have potential but Kirk seem to run Grudens system better.

What needs to happen is Gruden need to make a decision on which qb he thinks can succeed and stick with him. Snyder needs to show support and coaching security with Gruden so he will be patient as well and cater/alter his system to the one qb he choses.

Posted: **Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:41 pm**

I think when you just look at Jays old system, Cousins does fit it better. What Jay should do though, and RG3 needs to buy into it 100%, is put some read option in it, to open up the run game and simplify the pass game for RG3. While hes not in the read option, he needs to stay in the pocket unless an obvious run presents itself.

If he can do that, and hit the dirt on his own instead of getting hit, then he may have a shot.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:52 am**

StorminMormon86 wrote:the anti-Cousins side is quick to point out that Kirk has squandered every opportunity he's ever had in a total of 9 games. But Griffin, who has looked a lot worse than Cousins since 2012, continues the Jason Campbell treatment. I'm actually amazed that there aren't more, "best man wins open competition" fans.

I don't believe there is an anti-Cousins side. There may be Pro-Griffin people, but they aren't anti-Cousins. And "the Jason Campbell treatment" thing is just totally laughable. Campbell never did anything to warrant his continued opportunities. RGIII has 2012. He is also much more accurate than Campbell ever dreamed of being. Talk to me in four years, when RGIII is still getting chances after showing no improvement.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:31 am**

Deadskins wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:the anti-Cousins side is quick to point out that Kirk has squandered every opportunity he's ever had in a total of 9 games. But Griffin, who has looked a lot worse than Cousins since 2012, continues the Jason Campbell treatment. I'm actually amazed that there aren't more, "best man wins open competition" fans.

I don't believe there is an anti-Cousins side. There may be Pro-Griffin people, but they aren't anti-Cousins. And "the Jason Campbell treatment" thing is just totally laughable. Campbell never did anything to warrant his continued opportunities. RGIII has 2012. He is also much more accurate than Campbell ever dreamed of being. Talk to me in four years, when RGIII is still getting chances after showing no improvement.

you're right JSPB - there's guys that are pro both QBs but not too many (if any) of the pro Griffin fans are actually anti Cousins...

there are some that don't think Cousins is more than a back-up but they're not actually 'anti' like some fans here are against RG3

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:23 am**

Deadskins wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:the anti-Cousins side is quick to point out that Kirk has squandered every opportunity he's ever had in a total of 9 games. But Griffin, who has looked a lot worse than Cousins since 2012, continues the Jason Campbell treatment. I'm actually amazed that there aren't more, "best man wins open competition" fans.

I don't believe there is an anti-Cousins side. There may be Pro-Griffin people, but they aren't anti-Cousins. And "the Jason Campbell treatment" thing is just totally laughable. Campbell never did anything to warrant his continued opportunities. RGIII has 2012. He is also much more accurate than Campbell ever dreamed of being. Talk to me in four years, when RGIII is still getting chances after showing no improvement.

Totally agree with this. There may be fans who don't believe in Cousins, but I don't think there is an equivalent to the kind of dislike some people show Griffin currently. I'm not even blaming that completely on the fans. For one thing, Cousins hasn't put himself out there and marketed himself the way Griffin has, so he's not that kind of target. Cousins hasn't had the type of hype that Griffin has that warrants a backlash. And most importantly, the franchise didn't trade four picks for Cousins. Its not surprising that some fans resent that he hasn't been worth that price.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:35 pm**

^^ true dat - haters are gonna hate ... :roll:

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:49 pm**

So let me get this right…If you think Cousins is the better option at QB, you’re a Griffin hater or prejudice. But if you think Griffin the better choice you’re not those things?? What does one have to do with the other…it just can’t be that some think Cousins is the better QB??

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:20 pm**

DEHog wrote:So let me get this right…If you think Cousins is the better option at QB, you’re a Griffin hater or prejudice. But if you think Griffin the better choice you’re not those things?? What does one have to do with the other…it just can’t be that some think Cousins is the better QB??

Nobody has remotely said that, don't be so sensitive.

I personally think Cousins is probably the better option at QB, but I don't consider myself a Griffin hater. You won't find me on here posting epic diatribes about how Griffin will never amount to jack squat, will never learn to pass from the pocket, couldn't read a defense to save his life, is a diva, is 100% going to get injured next week and should be cut tomorrow. Get the difference? You won't have to look that hard on this message board or anywhere else to find posts like that about RGIII.

The worst you'll find written about Cousins is that he's thrown too many interceptions.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:21 pm**

SkinsJock wrote:It's really simple - some Cousins' fans are just prejudiced against RG3 - we don't see many Griffin fans that are prejudiced against Cousins

I'm biased I guess, but only because I think Griffin has the higher ceiling not because I don't like Cousins - I do

but, I'm not prejudiced .... try convincing the anti Griffin crowd ...

Hhhmmmmmmm..... So is your opinion is "some" Cousins fan are prejudiced against RGIII regardless of reason, but absolutely no RGIII fans are prejudiced against Cousins for any reason....... Or are you merely saying that some Cousins fans are prejudiced against RGIII and some RGIII fans are prejudiced against Cousins...... the "some" attached to the Cousins statement and the "some" attached to the RGIII statement make it hard to determine what you are really saying....... or you are merely crafting your language so you can, once again, flip flop your statement based on the response........

Then you say that you personally like both QBs, but you are biased towards RGIII....... So you like them both, just one more than the other...... That is like telling your children that you love them all, but you love Billy more than the others....... Oh but wait ---- you said RGIII fans aren't prejudiced against Cousins..........

Things are getting confusing....... errrr should I say hypocritical.....

What about the Cousins fans that just want to win and think he is the best person to accomplish that? Is that being prejudiced towards RGIII???

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:37 pm**

markshark84 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:It's really simple - some Cousins' fans are just prejudiced against RG3 - we don't see many Griffin fans that are prejudiced against Cousins

I'm biased I guess, but only because I think Griffin has the higher ceiling not because I don't like Cousins - I do

but, I'm not prejudiced .... try convincing the anti Griffin crowd ...

Hhhmmmmmmm..... So is your opinion is "some" Cousins fan are prejudiced against RGIII regardless of reason, but absolutely no RGIII fans are prejudiced against Cousins for any reason....... Or are you merely saying that some Cousins fans are prejudiced against RGIII and some RGIII fans are prejudiced against Cousins...... the "some" attached to the Cousins statement and the "some" attached to the RGIII statement make it hard to determine what you are really saying....... or you are merely crafting your language so you can, once again, flip flop your statement based on the response........

Then you say that you personally like both QBs, but you are biased towards RGIII....... So you like them both, just one more than the other...... That is like telling your children that you love them all, but you love Billy more than the others....... Oh but wait ---- you said RGIII fans aren't prejudiced against Cousins..........

Things are getting confusing....... errrr should I say hypocritical.....

What about the Cousins fans that just want to win and think he is the best person to accomplish that? Is that being prejudiced towards RGIII???

Nobody has remotely said that, don't be so sensitive.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:14 pm**

When RGIII went down last year and Cousins became the starting QB it was then that Cousins had the chance to take over the job outright in my opinion. Cousins did not get the job done so this is why RGIII shoud be the starting QB this coming year. I like Cousins and I was really rooting for him to prove he could get the job done. I think at this point in time it would be in the best interest of the team to deal Cousins before pre season gets here and to let everyone know that this is Robert's team and that he is the man.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:10 pm**

I have been biased against Griffin from the very beginning as soon as I heard about the ludicrous use of 3 first round and 1 second round picks for a QB. Then the RGIII mania made me feel foolish to be a fan of the team it was so over the top but the clincher was watching him play. They had to use a high school option offense for him to be able to do anything in 2012, I'm 63 years old I've known for decades running QBs last as long as fruit flys so sure enough Griffin got busted. Then I watch Cousins come in and eviscerate the Browns, wow now there is a nice young QB. Knowing that there was a quality Shanahan pick on the bench while Snyder's megabust shredded 2013 by stinking up the field and getting the coaches fired got me angry so at that point I wasn't only negative from a skill set point of view I'd come to dislike his behavior.

I am biased against option QBs these dual threat types have been failing for decades so I saw the folly of the Griffin thing from the beginning and the results thus far are proving me right. As for the bias against Cousins there have been a lot posters on this board who were absolutely convinced Cousins could be nothing more than a useful back up for the franchise.

Unfortunately the critics of both may be right and neither one of them will turn out to be a quality starter. As for who is better and has a higher ceiling it appears to me that would be Cousins. He understands the offenses and defenses well enough to execute at a high level for extended periods of time before imploding with a rash of interceptions. I've seen theories floated he has done that because he has tells the defenses have learned and they have fooled him post snap by feinting one defense at first before shifting to another. I haven't a coach who studied his film say that but these things sound plausible. If the Skins can help him reduce the interceptions he might be good enough if not really good. His problems look fixable to me and he's never been the guy they were focused on preparing preseason if he was could the fix him? Since he's only had 10 starts I think they should be able to improve him enough.

As for Griffin, he just doesn't seem to understand things fast enough to be a real NFL QB. He didn't seem to understand better in 2014 than he did in 2012 or 2013 despite being the focus of the preseason training efforts for 3 years. Supporters make a lot of excuses for him but I don't see progress.

If Griffin was playing like Cousins, showing some promise but crashing and burning, I'd still be complaining since they paid a kings ransome for him but his supporters would have a case that he looked like he was nearly there. I know I dispute it but they would have a much better case than now, Griffin seems clueless to me. I don't think there would even be a debate if they both were 4th round picks, everyone here would be saying Griffin sucks and unless Cousins reduces the interceptions by about 40% he sucks also.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:12 pm**

When I think back a few years, I realize how pathetic we have become... There was once a time when our QB controversy was about which quarterback with a history of winning should be starting.

I follow the Redskins, and I like Sonny!

what say you, Welch?

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:46 pm**

Skins Fan in Indy wrote:When RGIII went down last year and Cousins became the starting QB it was then that Cousins had the chance to take over the job outright in my opinion. Cousins did not get the job done so this is why RGIII shoud be the starting QB this coming year. I like Cousins and I was really rooting for him to prove he could get the job done. I think at this point in time it would be in the best interest of the team to deal Cousins before pre season gets here and to let everyone know that this is Robert's team and that he is the man.

So Griffin who played even worse than Cousins should be made the starter so everyone will know he's the man? Do you think there is a guy in on the team that hasn't known Griifin has been the man since 2012? I fail to see how that builds confidence and unity in the locker room.

I agree with you Cousins didn't run away with the job when he had the chance but neither did McCoy or Griffin. By my lights Griffin looked the worst of the 3.

Posted: **Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:50 pm**

I agree with much of what oldschool just had to say however I give Griffin a lot more credit in year one than oldschool does. I would not refer to what they were doing as a high school option offense. I think it was something specifically created by Kyle for Griffin. He was amazing in all facets until he got hurt. I think once he truly got hurt he became gun shy. It took over a year for him to get back to normal and he was looking amazing against the Jaguars and then once again he got hurt. I fear he is doomed to continually being injured. Some will say I have no basis for the following opinion but it is my opinion and I do have a basis for it regardless of anyone's opinion of that: Robert Griffin is injury prone. I have outlined my theory regarding his prone-ness to injury in earlier posts and won't bother again here.

To me what would clearly be best for the team and for all parties involved would be running an open quarterback competition. I believe if we did that Kirk Cousins would win. If we actually had such a competition and Robert Griffin won it fair and square then he would be playing at a high level and I would like that.

The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.

Re: The Griffin vs Cousins debate.