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Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:29 pm
by StorminMormon86
I know there are other areas of concern for our team (defense, especially the secondary, o-line, better blocking TE's and RB's, special teams, etc.) but I was just curious who you all would personally like to see start these final three games?
IMO, I do not want to see Colt McCoy play another game in a Redskins uniform. In his first two starts, he started out slow and didn't actually get into a good rhythm until well into the 2nd half of both games. And in his last start, he looked pretty pathetic. There is no reason to play him, IMO. This guy is a career backup, and provides no "spark" on offense. The Dallas win was great, but then again our defense played probably it's best game of the season. McCoy did show some guts in that game, and he did deserve to start another...but now, knowing how he played in Cleveland, I've seen enough of him. There's no way in hell Gruden honestly thinks he can build a team around McCoy and think he's a "franchise" guy.
I don't think Gruden wants to see Griffin...at all. Said as much in his presser today. Someone asked about seeing more of Griffin on the field and his reply was, "we've seen a lot of him." What's the point in playing Griffin in three meaningless games? Not to mention, he has been on a downward spiral for 2 years straight and Gruden and McVay have tried everything they could in terms of trying to call plays fit to his style (I know some posters will disagree, but C00ley has said the same thing about Gruden/McVay "dummying" down the playbook to help him get into a rhythm) and he has failed in just about every start this year. For me, I don't see Griffin magically turning it around in 3 games.
That leaves Cousins. IMO, he should start. He has the least experience in terms of starting games among the three. And he has ran the offense the best this year by far. His INT's sucked, and his reaction to the turnovers was worse. But how do you expect the guy to gain any confidence while he's on the sideline dressed in sweat pants? If Gruden is concerned with the way Cousins responds to turnovers, play him the final three games and if he doesn't turn the ball over as much...great. If he does, that's also good because you know at that point what you have in Cousins. I think Cousins is the last hope this team has in terms of having a QB on the roster going into next year. It wouldn't hurt to see over these last three games if he's learned and if he's able to bounce back from some pretty crappy games.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:34 pm
by StorminMormon86
I should have prefaced this with the fact that I want to win these final three games. I don't think McCoy gives us a chance to win, IMO. With Griffin, he might show signs of improvement, but I don't think it would be enough to overcome the amount of points our defense is going to be giving up. That's another reason I chose Cousins. Our offense was on a roll with him for a stretch, and he's the QB that put up the most points out of the three.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:06 pm
by riggofan
Yeah I would probably start Cousins, but I don't feel any overwhelming conviction about it.
My only big concern with starting Cousins is that he has been especially bad vs. the Giants for some reason. Doesn't he have something like six INTs in two games against them?
I don't really have any problem with Gruden starting McCoy though either. You sort of pointed out the plus side of Colt from his performance in the Dallas game. He's not a guy who is going to lead the team to wins all on his own. But in a game where the defense played well and other guys on offense were making plays, he was adequate/capable. It wouldn't surprise me if he's part of that plan for next year. Just hold down the position while they address some of the other needs.
Gotta say RGIII has become the guy I think I'm completely done with. I feel terrible about that, because its such a huge failure and a huge setback.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:24 pm
by cowboykillerzRGiii
So crazy how in 2012 we had the ROY the year record setting qb AND the leagues Best ranked back up..
and now we have three hacks who cant play in the NFL? ... and our record setting RB is a pile?
I dont get it.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:15 pm
by markshark84
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:So crazy how in 2012 we had the ROY the year record setting qb AND the leagues Best ranked back up..
and now we have three hacks who cant play in the NFL? ... and our record setting RB is a pile?
I dont get it.
Well, a lot happens in 2 years....
The things I believe greatly contributed to his downfall:
1. The injury to RGIII was significant. He no longer has the quickness he once had. On top of that, he came back to quickly and doing so hurt his mental game. Both of these things are easily identifiable. Therefore, DEF coaches no longer fear his running ability and bring 2+ more rushers than they did in 2012.
2. Underestimating the intelligence of NFL coaching staffs and their ability to scheme and adjust to opposing personnel. The read option is no longer viable. RGIII now must rely on his ability as a pocket passer. As such, he is now required to do something he has little experience or talent doing: reading the entire field to identify open WRs.
3. Lack of commitment to fundamentals: RGIII never focused on passing fundamentals --- similiarly to Tebow. He relied on his extraordinary athletism.
Success came easy to RGIII in 2012 --- he took it for granted. He believed the RGIII hype and, in essence, underestimated the opposing talent of the NFL. He wasn't a student of the game. He became BFFs with the owner. His ego got big. He lost the respect of his locker room.
Somewhere from his rookie year to now, he forgot what it was to be a competitor. It appears he has now given up, kicking punts on the field by himself after practice...... True competitors are the guys that fight even when there appears to be no hope. Take Brady for example. During his rookie year, being a 6th round draft pick and behind a pro bowler, he approached Robert Kraft and said "I'm Tom Brady, and I'm the best decision your frachise has ever made." Reports go on to say that in 2000 he treated practices like games; some on the team thought he was mentally not all there based on the extreme amount of effort he gave in practice. Brady has an inner, unquenching desire to succeed. You won't find him punting to himself for 45 minutes after a practice. He knows his time is more valuable spent doing more constructive things.
As far as Cousins, he had a couple good games. We didn't know he was a mental trainwreck, where his play would spiral uncontrollably after he made one mental error.
Morris is still a stud. RBs, more than any other position, need support from the QB and OL. He has neither.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:34 pm
by tribeofjudah
insert a poll...
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:51 pm
by StorminMormon86
You know what you have in McCoy. 3 games means nothing in terms of evaluating him. How he wasn't benched after the Rams game is kind of a joke, IMO. The guy was brought in to be the #3, his leash should be the shortest of all.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:27 am
by fabe
StorminMormon86 wrote:You know what you have in McCoy. 3 games means nothing in terms of evaluating him. How he wasn't benched after the Rams game is kind of a joke, IMO. The guy was brought in to be the #3, his leash should be the shortest of all.
I think Gruden has a thing for him.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:28 am
by cowboykillerzRGiii
I think youre right on most all accounts there Markshark- I disagree about his ethics tho.. he tried hard and was working his tail off during the off season- but not necessarily on the right things. Where he progressed as a pocket passer he regresses in games due to falling to bad habits he gained from returning to soon from injury imo. I think he doesnt have the instincts right anymore and is shell shocked- panic mode I guess.
C0oley was way up on his improved mechanics before the games started.. So he did learn, but it isnt second nature.
The punting after practice to me is a man trying to fall back in love with the sport.. he got too big too fast, has crashed to earth, and was taking it back to its roots.. having fun, clearing his mind... hardly something I could bash the guy for regardless of why.
I vote play him. Make or break.. show us that your gonna fight for DC or die trying (not lliterally). Ive stood by this team through much worse, and since he fueled our last relevant year Im still loyal. PLUS I have AlMo in FF and he does MUCH better with Robert behind center!
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:03 am
by mastdark81
To me you play RG3 first. He simply havent played enough games in this offense. Practice is just practice. Then if not Rg3 you play Kirk. Both guys are young and still under contract next year.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:14 am
by StorminMormon86
Griffin is not playing again this year unless McCoy gets hurt during a game. Gruden took ANOTHER shot at Griffin yesterday in his presser and pretty much spelled it out that he is done with him. A reporter asked if he feels like he needs to see more of Robert in games and he said:
"He’s right here. I know where he’s at. He’s right here. We’ve seen a lot of him, and if he gets another opportunity to play, which could happen – could happen first quarter of this game, could happen next week – I don’t know. Right now, the decision is to go with Colt and see how he does, and the rest will take care of itself."
The "we've seen a lot of him" line reminded C00ley on the radio of when Shanahan had told him something similar when they wanted to start playing Logan Paulsen over him. C00ley thinks this is Gruden saying, "I've seen enough of Griffin".
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:48 am
by cowboykillerzRGiii
Colt McCoy is his boy- thats the highlight of his tenure here... and hes trying to rekindle that fuzzy feeling.
Pretty much any qb behind this line in this system w the plays Gruden has drawn up.. is gonna take a beating. Good luck Colt- youll need it!
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:04 pm
by SkinsJock
If I was making the decision, I'd start McCoy and I'd go with both Cousins or Griffin over the next 3 games if the guy playing is not doing well - the thing is, none of these guys is playing very well and none of them have the starting QB job locked down for next season
IMO Griffin still has the most upside but whether he can help himself or respond to the help is a huge question mark
Jay Gruden has to go through the same evaluation as everyone else and he just like Griffin has no place here unless he can show why he should be brought back
Part of the reason that Jay Gruden was brought in was to help Griffin and, I'm not the evaluator but I feel he should have handled the QB situation here better than he did - like his brother intimated, you're most important job as a HC is to have an effective QB and Gruden must have realized what he was dealing with in Griffin earlier and he should have done a better job than coming out and letting reports like he could not work with this QB come out - that was not good for this franchise - we all do not know what was really going on but if Griffin was not being cooperative then he should never have been put back in as the starter - that is the HC's job and Colt was coming off a victory over the pukes - Gruden decided to give Griffin a chance when he should have known that he was not ready to do that
Gruden was under a lot of pressure to start Griffin but that's his job - he made the wrong call and now we may have to cut Griffin
right now I'd play all 3 QBs - I agree that Colt should start this game and at the first hiccup, I'd go with Cousins and so on
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:12 pm
by riggofan
Your most important job as a HC is to win games.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:04 pm
by StorminMormon86
I get the decision to insert McCoy back into the game since Robert was sucking so bad, but McCoy should have had an even shorter leash than Robert...what the hell is Gruden seeing that I'm not seeing in McCoy? I don't care if he's having good practices...it needs to translate on the field.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:53 pm
by riggofan
StorminMormon86 wrote:I get the decision to insert McCoy back into the game since Robert was sucking so bad, but McCoy should have had an even shorter leash than Robert...what the hell is Gruden seeing that I'm not seeing in McCoy? I don't care if he's having good practices...it needs to translate on the field.
Tandler just posted this article "Which of the Three QBs Has Performed Best this Year". Thought it was a decent breakdown. None of them have been great. And I will say when considering McCoy v. Cousins that its been several weeks since I saw Cousins play so his bad performance isn't as fresh in my mind where I just saw McCoy last weekend.
Completion percentage
McCoy 71.9%
Griffin 69.9 %
Cousins 61.8%
The league average is 62.9 percent. Griffin and McCoy are close enough here to call it a coin toss between the two. Cousins lags behind.
Yards/pass attempt
Cousins 8.4
McCoy 8.4
Griffin 7.3
The league average here is 7.2 yards/attempt. So even though Cousins is less accurate than the other two in terms of completion percentage, he gets as much production out of each pass than McCoy does and significantly more than Griffin does. In fact, Cousins’ average of 13.6 yards per completions is among the best in the league. Of the Redskins’ eight longest pass plays this season, Cousins was the passer on six of them.
Net yards/pass attempt
Cousins 7.7
McCoy 6.5
Griffin 5.3
This metric accounts for yards lost to sacks. The league average is 6.4 new yards/attempt. Given that the three QB’s have been playing with mostly the same group of pass protectors (with the notable exception of Trent Williams missing all of the 49ers game and three quarters of the Bucs game, both games with Griffin behind center). Still, it shows that Cousins, who played almost all of his snaps with the since-benched Tyler Polumbus at right tackle, is more productive with each dropback than either of the other two. For the record, Cousins was sacked on 3.8 percent of his dropbacks, McCoy on 12.3 percent, and Griffin on 14.6 percent.
Interception percentage
Griffin 2.4%
McCoy 2.5%
Cousins 4.4%
This clearly is Cousins’ biggest issue, but it’s not like the other two are particularly good at protecting the ball. Both Griffin and McCoy are right around the NFL average of 2.5 percent of passes thrown being intercepted.
Touchdown pass percentage
Cousins 4.9%
McCoy 3.3%
Griffin 1.6%
The league average here is 4.7 percent so none of the three are truly lighting it up here.
Passer rating
McCoy 97.7
Cousins 86.4
Griffin 86.2
The NFL’s passer rating is 88.2 so Cousins and Griffin are about average while McCoy would rank in the top 10 in the league if he had enough pass attempts.
Average opponent passer rating rank
Griffin 16
Cousins 16
McCoy 18.2
This is just to give some perspective on their performances. Opponent passer rating is a better way to measure pass defense than raw yardage in part because it includes interceptions. It shows that Griffin and Cousins have faced average pass defenses overall when it comes to passer rating and McCoy has had it slightly easier.
Although this isn’t comprehensive or conclusive in any way, these numbers appear to point to Cousins as the one who has performed the best. However, the interceptions are a major drawback to his game.
Looking just at performance this year, it would be hard to justify putting Griffin in as the starter. He isn’t clearly superior to the other two in any of these statistical categories and he lags well behind Cousins and McCoy in the metrics that include yards per attempt.
Now, whether Griffin should play so that the organization can get another look at him before deciding his future during the offseason is a separate discussion altogether. But based on giving the team the best chance to win in 2014 it’s hard to make the case that he should be the one behind center.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:56 pm
by OldSchool
1. Griffin is worthless, he doesn't know what he is doing and should be trade or cut.
2. Mixed but unacceptable results with Cousins. I don't know why he throws so many picks if they can get him to improve they may have something but I'd sit him the rest of the year unless McCoy can't go.
3. Play McCoy if healthy.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:59 pm
by Irn-Bru
I'd say start McCoy if healthy and make RGIII the backup. Right now that combination probably gives us our best chance to win, however miserable those odds are.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:23 pm
by OldSchool
riggofan wrote:StorminMormon86 wrote:I get the decision to insert McCoy back into the game since Robert was sucking so bad, but McCoy should have had an even shorter leash than Robert...what the hell is Gruden seeing that I'm not seeing in McCoy? I don't care if he's having good practices...it needs to translate on the field.
Tandler just posted this article "Which of the Three QBs Has Performed Best this Year". Thought it was a decent breakdown. None of them have been great. And I will say when considering McCoy v. Cousins that its been several weeks since I saw Cousins play so his bad performance isn't as fresh in my mind where I just saw McCoy last weekend.
Completion percentage
McCoy 71.9%
Griffin 69.9 %
Cousins 61.8%
The league average is 62.9 percent. Griffin and McCoy are close enough here to call it a coin toss between the two. Cousins lags behind.
Yards/pass attempt
Cousins 8.4
McCoy 8.4
Griffin 7.3
The league average here is 7.2 yards/attempt. So even though Cousins is less accurate than the other two in terms of completion percentage, he gets as much production out of each pass than McCoy does and significantly more than Griffin does. In fact, Cousins’ average of 13.6 yards per completions is among the best in the league. Of the Redskins’ eight longest pass plays this season, Cousins was the passer on six of them.
Net yards/pass attempt
Cousins 7.7
McCoy 6.5
Griffin 5.3
This metric accounts for yards lost to sacks. The league average is 6.4 new yards/attempt. Given that the three QB’s have been playing with mostly the same group of pass protectors (with the notable exception of Trent Williams missing all of the 49ers game and three quarters of the Bucs game, both games with Griffin behind center). Still, it shows that Cousins, who played almost all of his snaps with the since-benched Tyler Polumbus at right tackle, is more productive with each dropback than either of the other two. For the record, Cousins was sacked on 3.8 percent of his dropbacks, McCoy on 12.3 percent, and Griffin on 14.6 percent.
Interception percentage
Griffin 2.4%
McCoy 2.5%
Cousins 4.4%
This clearly is Cousins’ biggest issue, but it’s not like the other two are particularly good at protecting the ball. Both Griffin and McCoy are right around the NFL average of 2.5 percent of passes thrown being intercepted.
Touchdown pass percentage
Cousins 4.9%
McCoy 3.3%
Griffin 1.6%
The league average here is 4.7 percent so none of the three are truly lighting it up here.
Passer rating
McCoy 97.7
Cousins 86.4
Griffin 86.2
The NFL’s passer rating is 88.2 so Cousins and Griffin are about average while McCoy would rank in the top 10 in the league if he had enough pass attempts.
Average opponent passer rating rank
Griffin 16
Cousins 16
McCoy 18.2
This is just to give some perspective on their performances. Opponent passer rating is a better way to measure pass defense than raw yardage in part because it includes interceptions. It shows that Griffin and Cousins have faced average pass defenses overall when it comes to passer rating and McCoy has had it slightly easier.
Although this isn’t comprehensive or conclusive in any way, these numbers appear to point to Cousins as the one who has performed the best. However, the interceptions are a major drawback to his game.
Looking just at performance this year, it would be hard to justify putting Griffin in as the starter. He isn’t clearly superior to the other two in any of these statistical categories and he lags well behind Cousins and McCoy in the metrics that include yards per attempt.
Now, whether Griffin should play so that the organization can get another look at him before deciding his future during the offseason is a separate discussion altogether. But based on giving the team the best chance to win in 2014 it’s hard to make the case that he should be the one behind center.
Interesting analysis. Cousins showed potential so I'm not surprised his stats are better. It looked like he was trying to carry the team not just manage the game and do his part. I don't know why he threw twice as many picks as the others If Gruden can help Cousins reduce his picks by half he might have a starter next year but I'd like to see McCoy get a chance to show us more.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:39 am
by SkinsJock
The giants have a QB that throws tons of interceptions and he's won 2 Super Bowls - interceptions aren't a big deal
give me a break
Right now I really think that Jay is just trying to win - he does not really care who the QB is despite what some stupid fans think
Gruden would put Griffin in there in a heartbeat, if he thought he'd help the offense play better
2015 - IMO Kirk Cousins will be the #1 QB in the Spring - IF Griffin is still here it's only because he has worked very hard to become the type of QB that Gruden wants ... no matter what, he's got a lot harder road ahead of him to be the starting QB here again
it's stupid to say that any of them would be starting QBs 'if they only played better' - that's as pathetic as my holding out hope for RG3
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:34 am
by StorminMormon86
Gruden is making the case to fire him much more convincing. How the hell do you not have all 3 QB's active when your "starter" has neck issues and the backup also has had injuries in the past?
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:27 pm
by SkinsJock
OK - I agree with starting McCoy but if the reason we did not dress 3 QBs was because the medical staff felt that there was no reason to based on the fact that McCoy was so fit we would not need a 3rd QB - then, those medical guys that told the HC that, should not be here - they should have been fired on Sunday night
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:36 pm
by riggofan
SkinsJock wrote:OK - I agree with starting McCoy but if the reason we did not dress 3 QBs was because the medical staff felt that there was no reason to based on the fact that McCoy was so fit we would not need a 3rd QB - then, those medical guys that told the HC that, should not be here - they should have been fired on Sunday night
I'm really surprised by the bad medical advice. Our medical staff has such an excellent history.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:40 pm
by Bdot
RG3 is your best QB, and it's not really even that close. QBs generally perform much better and more efficiently when they have the confidence and support of the coaching staff. Gruden does not like RG3, he has a man crush on Colt McCoy. Unless Gruden changes his tune and stops being an idiot, RG3 will have to find his way without the support of the coaching staff.
Re: Who Would You Start @ QB?
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:11 pm
by oj
I'd say start Cousins. Whatever is going on in Colts neck needs to heal, that is dangerous territory to have things go wonky and there isn't any reason he needs to risk it. Gruden needs to pick the guy soonest so's he can get ready, its a short week and a critical game. Cousins has best chance to actually win.