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Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:19 am
by cowboykillerzRGiii
I posted this long winded post in the game day thread but figured it was worthy of debate elsewhere. We are all trying to grasp how ineffective we have been all year- so what gives? As others have aluded to, Gruden is stoic and even broken looking on the sideline. As a manager I get my troops rallied up daybin day out to meet their goals, so I can meet MINE. He did zero rallying of his troops just like the score HIS offense put up. Rant->
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:^ when your offence scores zero... with pro bowl wide out te and rb talent.. yes. Scheme. I dont think this line is built for his passing attack style of offensive scheme. We lack size due to shannys zone blocking build of line- which he used lighter linemen to be more athletic to get to the next level- hence Alfreds better run output. Now we are over matched on the line, despite your crazy notion that they are "good enough", and getting blown up in the backfield! Defensive tackles are nearly taking the handoff from McCoy!!
Alfred Morris was second only to Ap in yards after last year- he had ONE YARD at half time. You tell me whats to blame if not the new offence and coach?
Coach is being stubborn, and refuses to humble himself and accept that he currently doesnt have the pieces to run "HIS" offense. We cant block for a five step drop. He is pointing the finger, about people being professionals, but needs to accept that his system isnt working- and find out why. Robert cant be the scapegoat when he is on the bench!
He is trying to plug square pegs into round holes imo, instead of scheming to the strength of what his players have to offer. Like having a pretty decent 4-3 and trying to plug them into 3-4 just because you like that system.. well news flash you dont have the 3-4 pieces!
Im not advocating we pursue Harbough, but wouldn't be surprised if we do. Gruden has been lack luster not just in what hes fielded all year but has handled some things unfavorably. His biggest knock is to me is ruining Alfreds record setting start (in terms of redskins rbs) with a horrible under performance this year. He deserves more then that.
Its not surprising 3 qbs, 2 of which regarded as pretty goog to possibly hella good, are failing behind this ragged oline. Im not a rocket science major, but I purposed many ways to "help" our piss poor blocking weeks ago- and not much is being done. Just when I think they are using our best blocking back in D young more he disappears for the rest of the game. Our double tight end sets should be one extra lineman and one te... but nope, qb pressure dacks hits ints fumbles is what we get every week
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:00 am
by StorminMormon86
Horrible QB play, below average line blocking, etc. contributed to our games were we got blown out. Our offense did move the ball pretty well in the opening drive, up until McCoy threw that interception in Rams territory. I wonder if he had a meltdown game a la Cousins against the Giants. I think the more likely scenario is that McCoy is NOT a starting QB, never will be, and it was proven yesterday.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:08 am
by DarthMonk
I also posted these in another thread but they are a better fit here:
I actually think Gruden is a pretty good designer of plays and a good play caller. The WAAAAAAY bigger problem is our lack of urgency. This points to Gruden as HEAD COACH.
We walk to the line after lolly gagging up to then and all of a sudden we are under 10 secs on the play clock and THE DEFENSE DICTATES TO US.
Meanwhile, the Colts essentially run no huddle the entire game and have 25 to 40 seconds to DICTATE TO OUR DEFENSE.
So their D eats our O alive cuz they never have to worry about showing us what they're gonna do while they make us show every time since they create the luxury of false snap counts by either not using a huddle or getting in and out of it VERY QUICKLY.
The fact that we actually get guys open on offense and leave all kinds of huge plays out there is a testament to excellent play design and play calling in the face of this slow-motion-between-snaps sleepwalking which puts us at an extreme disadvantage.
The defense is simply exposed by an offense with any kind of efficiency.
We cannot afford to play this way if we are only average on the line and at QB. I'm not sure any team has enough talent to play so lackadaisically.
My guess is we are like this all week and the games are just showing what we practice.
and
I'd put a lot of our sacks on our slow-motion attitude. We get to the line with less than 10 seconds on the play clock and have no chance to do anything but say hut, hut, hut ... or call a time out.
Other offenses hustle and have a chance to undress our defense with one or more false snap counts.
I watched Oregon last night. They got to the line of scrimmage within 10 seconds after being tackled consistently. We don't even do that in 2-minute drill. WTF? SMMFH
Thus, my answer to the question implicitly asked in the title of the thread is ... Gruden - as head coach - not his scheme or the o-line.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:17 am
by brad7686
You are absolutely right, this is a zone blocking line trying to play in a pass-first offense, and right now they can't run block because teams are stacking the box with little fear of repercussion. You have to block SOMEWHERE to give the qb a chance to escape. It looks like we're having a kegger in the pocket on every play.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:57 am
by SkinsJock
some good observations here - I was really disappointed in our team's effort yesterday and this is on Gruden
he's in charge here and he's not doing his job as well as he's capable
he actually looked a little lost on the sideline during the game
I wonder what is going to happen at Redskins Park today & tomorrow - totally BAD effort from the HC, assistant coaches and the players
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:33 pm
by riggofan
Offensive scheme. lol. Give me a freaking break. His scheme seemed to work well enough for the Bengals.
We are seriously a fan base of imbeciles.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:37 pm
by oj
I think Gruden is a horrible playcaller, a fake punt? you kiddin me? did they even practice it?, and terrible coaching because there is some kind of a 'tell' when Alfred is getting the ball and where he is going with it. Teams have figured it out, there is something the offense is doing that a defensive coordinator has picked up on and they are waiting on him.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:39 pm
by EA7649
Apparently there are great practices according to CSNWashington but the players can't play well in tho game. I have no idea what Snyder is going to do and I'm glad I'm not making the decision. Change has to be made again...
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:41 pm
by riggofan
I think the comments about the o-line still being mostly a ZBS line are pretty fair (and pretty obvious). We're just going to have to take our lumps with it while the line is rebuilt. Again.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:41 pm
by riggofan
oj wrote:I think Gruden is a horrible playcaller, a fake punt? you kiddin me? did they even practice it?, and terrible coaching because there is some kind of a 'tell' when Alfred is getting the ball and where he is going with it. Teams have figured it out, there is something the offense is doing that a defensive coordinator has picked up on and they are waiting on him.
Oh yeah. nailed it.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:36 pm
by StorminMormon86
I had no problems with that fake punt call. Our offense sucked. Needed SOMETHING to happen that could have provided a spark. Not to mention we were 3-9, season was over anyway.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:41 pm
by riggofan
StorminMormon86 wrote:I had no problems with that fake punt call. Our offense sucked. Needed SOMETHING to happen that could have provided a spark. Not to mention we were 3-9, season was over anyway.
right? Who cares?? Why bother complaining about it at this point?
I'm tired of everybody looking for somebody to blame. At this point, they need to figure out what guys need to stay - players, coaches, GMs all included - and get those guys some help in the offseason. We're not going to "fix" anything complaining that Gruden called a fake punt.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:45 pm
by StorminMormon86
Someone on the radio claimed to have heard from someone at the game that on at least 2 sacks Trent Williams basically let the rusher by to get the sack. Don't know how true that is.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:45 pm
by oneman56
I think it's a little bit of everything. We kept our run game and blocking schemes the same but the problem is we've learned we're not a good running team. Our run game two years ago thrived on putting the defense in hesitation with the read option, that read option no longer exists with or without Griffin. Without that hesitation this line just doesn't create running lanes so now defenses make us one dimensional and our O-line is now relegated to what they do even worse than run blocking and that's pass pro. Gruden gets some blame IMO because we have an identity crisis, he's a coach that loves the passing game and the quick timing routes but without a running game and without competent QB play and weak pass pro this quick timing WC offense can't work. Everything is a mess, we need quality O-line help this offseason. They better address O-line this offseason in the form of 3 new starters at least.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:47 pm
by StorminMormon86
Why doesn't McVay get any blame in any of this?
And according to the CSN post game show, the same mistakes being made in the games were being made in practices all week. WTF is going on?
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:28 pm
by DarthMonk
oj wrote:I think Gruden is a horrible playcaller, a fake punt? you kiddin me? did they even practice it?, and terrible coaching because there is some kind of a 'tell' when Alfred is getting the ball and where he is going with it. Teams have figured it out, there is something the offense is doing that a defensive coordinator has picked up on and they are waiting on him.
Some might call this nit picking but the distinction is huge.
The HEAD COACHING DECISION was fake punt. The PLAY CALL came from the SPECIAL TEAMS COACH.
That play has nothing to do with Gruden as an OC or play caller. It has everything to do with him as a Head Coach.
I maintain that he generally calls good plays for the various downs and distances. My evidence is how open guys are, both immediately and in later parts of the progression.
The last part of the quoted post above I explain by us not being able to do anything to undress a defense and maybe get out of some bad plays because we are so late getting to the line. They wait on us cuz they can. If we were more disciplined and hustled more then we could get to the line with 20+ seconds, use a fake snap count (LIKE EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE DOES) undress the defense, and then block the right guys to help make our play successful or get into a better play.
The play calls themselves are fine. That's why guys get open. It's actually amazing that they do. What sucks is our lack of urgency that undermines the best laid plans. I blame Gruden for that lack of urgency. I can't believe we are sharp in practice then loaf only on Sunday.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:45 pm
by yupchagee
oneman56 wrote:I think it's a little bit of everything. We kept our run game and blocking schemes the same but the problem is we've learned we're not a good running team. Our run game two years ago thrived on putting the defense in hesitation with the read option, that read option no longer exists with or without Griffin. Without that hesitation this line just doesn't create running lanes so now defenses make us one dimensional and our O-line is now relegated to what they do even worse than run blocking and that's pass pro. Gruden gets some blame IMO because we have an identity crisis, he's a coach that loves the passing game and the quick timing routes but without a running game and without competent QB play and weak pass pro this quick timing WC offense can't work. Everything is a mess, we need quality O-line help this offseason. They better address O-line this offseason in the form of 3 new starters at least.
Morris's best games this year came with RGIII at QB. He is simply a better ball handler than Cousins or McCoy.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:23 pm
by OldSchool
1. I agree the other poster the scheme is fine based on the success of the Bengals.
2. Gruden may not work out as a head coach but he's a good OC
3. The OL is a problem. They were questionable last year with Shanny's scheme also. The OL has trouble sustaining a running game without a read option and providing pass protection against good defensive lines. Kirk Cousins got the ball out fast enough to avoid sacks but some of his excessive picks might have been because he was operating too fast. Griffin and now McCoy have had trouble with sacks behind the line. I discount the Griffin sacks because he doesn't know what he is suppose to do but McCoy took a beating Sunday also, the OL is a problem.
4. QB play has been a problem. Cousins moved the team and scored but too many interceptions. Griffin doesn't understand the field and was inept. McCoy has produced mixed results and needs more opportunities to earn the job.
5. The defense is too weak to hold up its end particularly the defensive backfield.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:26 pm
by SkinsJock
IMO - Gruden is having a huge learning experience and will, like many of his players, come out of this year better prepared for all he's got to handle and manage as the HC next season
Gruden knows what he's got with the 3 QBs and it is V obvious that his job would be a lot easier if Griffin can get some help this off season and become the QB he can be - Kirk and Colt are good back up QBs - that's what they are
Gruden also needs to get some help from above, as it were - this franchise needs a real GM that can pull it all together and bring in the personnel (coaches & players) that will make Gruden's job a little easier - how great would it be to find some more O line help to go along with the young guys we already have and maybe pick up that Alabama safety with the 6th pick
helping Griffin become a good starting QB is a huge step in the right direction .. just letting Griffin go is a mistake
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:58 am
by CanesSkins26
riggofan wrote:Offensive scheme. lol. Give me a freaking break. His scheme seemed to work well enough for the Bengals.
We are seriously a fan base of imbeciles.
+1
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:37 pm
by cowboykillerzRGiii
riggofan wrote:Offensive scheme. lol. Give me a freaking break. His scheme seemed to work well enough for the Bengals.
We are seriously a fan base of imbeciles.
Really? Im an imbecile for starting a discussion on why our crappy team put up a goose egg?
Good contribution.
Then you acknowledged that the zbs lineman shanny left us is probably hurting us... so to my point. I never said Grudens system is crap, I said it isnt working to the strengths of what he has. Like the 3-4 switch when we had 4-3 players... not gonna happen.
Maybe if we had some diesel lineman and an AJ Green to go up and get it we wouldnt have to nit pick why we are one of the worst teams in the league.
Right now we are seeing a poor offense, and Morris fade from top three conversations- even top ten. What kind of imbecile lets THAT happen?!
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:56 pm
by riggofan
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:riggofan wrote:Offensive scheme. lol. Give me a freaking break. His scheme seemed to work well enough for the Bengals.
We are seriously a fan base of imbeciles.
Really? Im an imbecile for starting a discussion on why our crappy team put up a goose egg?
Good contribution.
You'll notice I wrote WE in that sentence, so I wouldn't take any personal offense. I sadly count myself among the idiot fans at this point.
As far as the scheme thing, you'll just have to forgive my impatience on that one. We've found something/somebody new to blame every week since the Giants game, so why not give the offense scheme a go?
We have a talent issue, not a scheme issue. Coaches can only scheme their way around talent issues for so long. Ask Kyle Shanahan.
I do agree that the guys left over from the ZBS are hurting us at times, but we're basically talking about one or two players. I highly doubt there is some schematic fix that Gruden has been too dumb to recognize. We need a couple bigger offensive linemen who can play. It is what it is.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:01 pm
by cowboykillerzRGiii
I hear ya.n the SCHEME is great.. if the qb has time. But since he doesnt we need to use a blocking te instead of Reed as a wr or have Young in the backfield (who can also catch) to pick up a blitz.. extra lineman? Im just not seeing any adjustment from Gruden to make his vision fit what he has to work with.
When teams are losing, and badly, the finger gets ppinted. Blame has to fall somewhere in this business- its just the way of the NFL.
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:12 pm
by riggofan
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I hear ya.n the SCHEME is great.. if the qb has time. But since he doesnt we need to use a blocking te instead of Reed as a wr or have Young in the backfield (who can also catch) to pick up a blitz.. extra lineman? Im just not seeing any adjustment from Gruden to make his vision fit what he has to work with.
There's a great example. When Gruden HAS adjusted like you're suggesting, how many times has freaking Logan Paulsen missed a key block or jumped offside? That's a talent issue not a scheme issue.
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:When teams are losing, and badly, the finger gets ppinted. Blame has to fall somewhere in this business- its just the way of the NFL.
So that validates misplaced blame?
Re: Offensive scheme, Gruden, or oline
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:22 pm
by cowboykillerzRGiii
Right. . And as soon as I see D young I get excited. .. then he disappears for two weeks.
Who do you blame for Gruden NOT running D Young on short and goal situations??? He didnt get the fn memo???
Misplaced? Na. I know our players short comings as do you.. seems that Gruden might not know what us armchair coaches do is whats troubling. AlAfred should be a BIG part of our game plan. They couldnt stop AP when they knew he was getting it.. cant stop Demarco.. hes not inly screwing over HIS offense with our undersized line he is essentially killing the run game that they were built for as well.
Id point to mcvay but I dont know what he actually does on game day.. I almost think Gruden wasnt ready for the step up to HC... and mightve been better as an OC for linger or even HC in NCAA first.
Looking lost is sad to see.. this team craves confidence and someone who can have swagger even when facing adversity