The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

fabe wrote:

OldSchool wrote:I believe if the Skins decided to let Cousins compete with Griffin for the job running Gruden's offense Kirk would win it decisively. If the Skins want to continue starting Griffin they better let him take his chances running because he is not an NFL caliber pocket quarterback.

I agree with everything here. It's going to be difficult or even impossible to break him from running, and change him into a true pocket QB. That's just not who he is. We knew this when we got him. It is kind of a shame that there isn't a QB competition. I understand that the media would have a field day if we sit Rob (look at last year), but I just want Gruden to choose whichever QB gives us the best chance to win, even if it's Colt McCoy.

Btw, when did we get new avatars? Gonna rock this Orakpo one!

I also actually agree with most of this but for one caveat: I do not think this is something we knew about Griff when we got him. In college, Griff was actually a quarterback who could run ... not a running quarterback. I think the pistol/Kyle offense turned him into someone who thinks about running first when something starts to go wrong. Hindsight is certainly 50-50.

Having said that I am not overly disappointed in his performance tonight. He was 5-8 for 20 yards. The only "bad" decision he made was not throwing the ball away instead of running out of bounds for a 5 yard loss.

It appears our defensive line is better than our offensive line. The first two games against the Texans and the Jaguars will tell us a lot.

Had the Reed pass and run counted... and had we punched it in on first and goal peeps probably be singing a different tune. It was a defensive battle and im glad our boys were up to the challenge- save that two minute drill burn. Still breathing lifebinto drives for the other team w costly penalties kn third down.
im eafer to see it cleaned up, and the play book opened vs the Texans. Its turning into a must win w the Rome is burning Cousins is god crowd at arms... smdh

I think any football coach just reviewing the body of work this season would pick Cousins over Griffin. I thnk if it was really Gruden's option he'd bench Griffin and play Cousins, but I don't think Gruden is free to make that decision. When Griffin starts in Houston over Cousins it will not be because Gruden thinks Griffin runs his offense better or offers the Skins a better chance of winning in Houston because Cousins is performing significantly better now, it's not close. Griffin will start in Houston because the Redskins ownership is not ready to let the Griffin dream die yet.

At this point choosing Griffin over Cousins require willfully refusing to see the obvious because the glittering RGIII dream is so intoxicating they refuse to put down the 2012 Griffin crack pipe. I don't know if Kirk Cousins is a potential upper tier franchise QB but I am convinced Robert Griffin will not become one. I think if he was going to pick up the pocket game an excel we'd see more evidence of it by now. At best Griffin can still run well enough to be a Michael Vick type player. I haven't seen him cut loose and run yet this year so I don't know how much of his speed and agility remains.

If Gruden wants to start Griffin or has to start Griffin in Houston that he gives him chances to run and get some momentum from using his legs, assuming he still can run. Griffin could take big hits in the pocket also because it takes him too long to figure out what to do so let him run if he still can run.

@OP: Perhaps you're right when you say that the Pistol offense changed his playstyle, where he thinks about running way more than he should. However, as I said, it will be difficult or even impossible to change him [in this context] BACK into a pocket QB [who can run]. I think Jay Gruden could be a good coach to make this turnaround, but we can't say just yet. I think we should wait until November before we start condemning Rob, given that he doesn't show improvement by that point.

I also stand by what I said, that I want Gruden to just pick who he thinks is the best QB to win games, Dan Snyder and media frenzy be damned. They don't know anything about winning football games. I don't care about superstars, satisfying fans or making the media happy. I care about Ws!

So with all that aside, here's a good question: what kind of offense are we? I know the playcalling in preseason is pretty vanilla, and it would be hard to pick up on what Gruden & McVay like to call, but what do you guys think? Are we ground-n-pound, pass-heavy, read option/pistol? Do we like to be under center or play more in the shotgun?

OldSchool wrote:I think any football coach just reviewing the body of work this season would pick Cousins over Griffin. I thnk if it was really Gruden's option he'd bench Griffin and play Cousins, but I don't think Gruden is free to make that decision. When Griffin starts in Houston over Cousins it will not be because Gruden thinks Griffin runs his offense better or offers the Skins a better chance of winning in Houston because Cousins is performing significantly better now, it's not close. Griffin will start in Houston because the Redskins ownership is not ready to let the Griffin dream die yet.

At this point choosing Griffin over Cousins require willfully refusing to see the obvious because the glittering RGIII dream is so intoxicating they refuse to put down the 2012 Griffin crack pipe.

I kind of agree with what wrote here. Everything you wrote following this, I repeat, give him until November before we start crucifying the kid.

I say I almost agree because there's really no way to know if Gruden actually prefers Griffin to run his offense. Yes, Cousins has looked better, but we're judging his performance on 3 meaningless preseason games, with no must-win pressure put on his shoulders, and all of this playing against back-up defenses. I don't keep up with practices, but maybe Griffin outperforms Cousins there. However, I will absolutely agree that if Gruden does in fact want Cousins to be his starter, then Griffin will be the starter regardless. So either way, we're getting Griffin for week 1. It's not fair, but that's Dan Snyder for you.

Its a good thing I enjoy the defense. There was some terrific plays made, Riley surprised me being where I just didn't expect him to be. Theres a #46 I've been watching, he has great instincts but I didn't see him out there last night.
The corners got the asses handed to them by the Smiths, I think the corners have been helped by the pass rush and need to recognize that they have to do thier part too.
Santana Moss looks great.
The Skins have some very very talented players, the best I've seen in 30years and it is going to be tough to cut any of them loose.
That defensive line might be the best we've ever had.

I found it interesting that our game plan was to run in the middle against a line where Haloti Ngata was not the biggest person, and throw long passes when Tyler Polumbus was matched up with Elvis Dumervil. Not that Dumervil is great, but Polumbus is garbage. Screens and short passes anyone? Maybe a stretch play?

I'd also like to add that Kirk Cousins DID have a chance to seize the starting job and failed. It was only like 8 months ago. He was actually playing against first teamers. Bad first teamers, at that.

Also, our interior pass blocking is still pathetic against good defenses. Which is bad, because then you can't elude the outside rushers. On the other hand, our inside pass rush has improved and we are seeing the benefits. Orakpo and Kerrigan and Murphy will see the benefits too.

It's easy to put a lot of this on RG3, he did not play well. But that conveniently ignores the fact that we still have a large contingent of our O-line from last year starting, which is one of the worst pass blocking lines I've ever seen. Spencer Long and some other guys should be given serious starting consideration because I fail to see how they could do much worse.

Some posters reference the last three games last year that Cousins got to play in as evidence Kirk can't play whereas I say the opposite, he proved he could play behind the line. Cousins was not sacked because he understood the playing field and made the correct decisions. Remember also the team fumbled 5 times against Atlanta, if his teammates held onto the ball the Skins win. Didn't win the job in Shanahan was still the coach and free to choose Cousins would be his starter. Our problem is Gruden isn't free to choose Snyder hired him to turn Griffin into a QB so barring an injury 2014 is going to be somewhat like 2013.

With all the receivers the Skins have now I think it is fair to they have assembled an Indy car for their QB to drive. Tremendous power is available for someone with mental skills to use but unfortunately Griffin has only got Beltway driving skills, Cousins is our Indy driver.

Our only hope is Snyder deciding he could sell hundreds of thousands of Cousins jerseys if he gave him the keys and turned him loose. Otherwise I'll probably play golf on a lot Sundays like I did last year.

They(Snyder and Allen) have invested and traded-away so much for Griffin that now they have to use Griffin even when it's not the most practical choice. This was my fear from the start. They invest so much in retreads and untested gimmicks that it always makes for frustration in the end.

I will stick to my Griffin prediction. I see it as plain as day. He will continue to frustrate, disappoint and struggle. There will be endless excuses. He will FINALLY be traded and will languish on other teams' benches. I saw his gimmick from the start. RG3 is/was a really good college-level run-option QB. His success in 2012 was the pinnacle of his NFL career. Personally, I don't believe the run-option scheme will last much longer in the NFL on any distinct level. It's a beatable scheme and you can figure it out eventually and undermine it. The lasting NFL quarterback is the Brady, Brees, Manning type. RUn-option QB's are like glorified running backs. Unless you can develop into the more traditional NFL role of a QB, your days are numbered. I just hope they don't cling to Griffin out of pride and stubbornness too long. I was amazed when the guy won the Heisman and shocked when Washington gave up all they did to get this guy. I dunno if they ever had a chance at Andrew Luck, but they made a huge mistake, long-term, signing Griffin.

brad7686 wrote:I found it interesting that our game plan was to run in the middle against a line where Haloti Ngata was not the biggest person, and throw long passes when Tyler Polumbus was matched up with Elvis Dumervil. Not that Dumervil is great, but Polumbus is garbage. Screens and short passes anyone? Maybe a stretch play?

I'd also like to add that Kirk Cousins DID have a chance to seize the starting job and failed. It was only like 8 months ago. He was actually playing against first teamers. Bad first teamers, at that.

Also, our interior pass blocking is still pathetic against good defenses. Which is bad, because then you can't elude the outside rushers. On the other hand, our inside pass rush has improved and we are seeing the benefits. Orakpo and Kerrigan and Murphy will see the benefits too.

It's easy to put a lot of this on RG3, he did not play well. But that conveniently ignores the fact that we still have a large contingent of our O-line from last year starting, which is one of the worst pass blocking lines I've ever seen. Spencer Long and some other guys should be given serious starting consideration because I fail to see how they could do much worse.

Thankfully it's early and both Gruden and Griffin sound like it's not as bad as some are making it out to be

I am concerned about the O line - there are many here who are very confident the O line will not be a big issue - we shall see

brad7686 wrote:I found it interesting that our game plan was to run in the middle against a line where Haloti Ngata was not the biggest person, and throw long passes when Tyler Polumbus was matched up with Elvis Dumervil. Not that Dumervil is great, but Polumbus is garbage. Screens and short passes anyone? Maybe a stretch play?

I'd also like to add that Kirk Cousins DID have a chance to seize the starting job and failed. It was only like 8 months ago. He was actually playing against first teamers. Bad first teamers, at that.

Also, our interior pass blocking is still pathetic against good defenses. Which is bad, because then you can't elude the outside rushers. On the other hand, our inside pass rush has improved and we are seeing the benefits. Orakpo and Kerrigan and Murphy will see the benefits too.

It's easy to put a lot of this on RG3, he did not play well. But that conveniently ignores the fact that we still have a large contingent of our O-line from last year starting, which is one of the worst pass blocking lines I've ever seen. Spencer Long and some other guys should be given serious starting consideration because I fail to see how they could do much worse.

I can't figure out why we didn't run to the right to at least keep the defense honest.


People have short memories when it comes to Cousins. He does have a quicker release but he also threw the ball behind receivers because of that porous line. Give him a stout offensive line and he does way better but then again so would Robert who has a way higher ceiling.

I think our Oline has improved but only slightly. It still isn't up to par. It will take big bucks to get that together and this is what I have been harping about in the off season Oline Oline Oline! There wasn't anything we could do about it, so we have to grow our own. It will take years and some #1 picks to make that happen, unless we get really lucky. The 49ners reached to build their Oline with first round draft picks and look what they have now.

Kilmer72 wrote:I think our Oline has improved but only slightly. It still isn't up to par. It will take big bucks to get that together and this is what I have been harping about in the off season Oline Oline Oline! There wasn't anything we could do about it, so we have to grow our own. It will take years and some #1 picks to make that happen, unless we get really lucky. The 49ners reached to build their Oline with first round draft picks and look what they have now.

I agree with that, O-line seems like the one position we just aren't willing to splurge, at least on a consistent basis. And it shows. Mark Rypien was such a mediocre QB, but he could hold a tea party in the backfield. Any NFL QB will shred a D if they have no fear and enough time. Gibbs got it, and used his chips for O-line. We seem to want to use all our chips on everything else and get by with what's left. The one exception on the line is the time we did do a serious investment in the line, and that was Trent.

be interesting to get input from those that have been posting that the O line doesn't matter because RG3 is going to have so many weapons and we're not only a top 10 offense, we're most likely top 5

After the way the O line played last season some of us knew we needed to replace everyone except Trent Williams - this takes time

I'm still hopeful that this group will find a way to play better together and to win 9 games

saw a poll today that 4000 fans voted that cousins should start opening day ... 1000 fans voted RG should start

I would go with Cousins myself as he looks much more ready to lead this team

RG looks like a trainwreck right now.

HogHeaven1983 wrote:saw a poll today that 4000 fans voted that cousins should start opening day ... 1000 fans voted RG should start

I would go with Cousins myself as he looks much more ready to lead this team

RG looks like a trainwreck right now.

Not surprised.

We really need to remember who the 2 QBs were going up against. Griff pretty much had instant pressure in has face repeatedly. The one time Kirk saw that kind of pressure he threw a Rex ball into a defender's hands that should've been picked. He also missed at least 2 wide open guys from close range while under no duress - simply horrible throws. He does make quick decisions but his arm is average (so was Joe Montana's) and his accuracy is pretty darn spotty.

I'm glad he's a 'Skin but I still haven't seen enough to say he should be our starter.

It is all frustrating. There is just too much drama around this team all the time. Sick of the drama. Robert is better than Cousins - no doubt. But, I fear neither is all that good.

Clearly... the sky is falling.

Considering the fact that if you watch the game really closely and realize that they are showing NONE of the playbook, I think a lot of people are going to be really surprised in a couple of weeks.

FLWSkin wrote:Considering the fact that if you watch the game really closely and realize that they are showing NONE of the playbook, I think a lot of people are going to be really surprised in a couple of weeks.

I think its funny actually..a lot of people calling for Roberts head will be right back on his tip when he shows up, thats the world we live in tho.

It almost looked to me like they were calling plays we arent as successful with... run up the middle, using Al instead of Young on the goal line runs, keeping Al in on a passing down and throwing to him (the int)...

Im more concerned with Mosses then I am about our qb. Is he ok?! Is Orakpo ok?

Hatcher is going to make this already powerful D line even better!
Who got burned om the 2 minute drill td- was it Chase minnifiel? Maybe that was the td later

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:Im more concerned with Mosses then I am about our qb. Is he ok?! Is Orakpo ok?

Moses sprained his MCL, and right now we're unsure if he's going to have an MRI done on it. We'll have to wait another day or so before we hear more on it. I hope it's just a sprain and nothing more. Orakpo's ankle injury is minor, and he should suit up for week one in Houston.

Countertrey wrote:Clearly... the sky is falling.

and the ground is shaking ...

c'mon people - we won 3 games last season and we've got some new guys in charge sorting things out

let's give it a little time before we start thinking we're not heading in the right direction ...

Geez, can some of you guys on here just wait until we play a REGULAR SEASON game or two before all of the assesments are made. No coach in his right mind shows all of his cards in the preseason. I think the offense might stumble out of the blocks for a few weeks, but we will be rewarded down the line when things start to click. RGIII is the guy to lead this team.

hanburgerheel wrote:They(Snyder and Allen) have invested and traded-away so much for Griffin that now they have to use Griffin even when it's not the most practical choice. This was my fear from the start. They invest so much in retreads and untested gimmicks that it always makes for frustration in the end.

You know, this is one excuse I don't think the Redskins should use. We did give up a lot to get RGIII, but we drafted two QBs that year. If Cousins really is the better QB then so be it. Pretend those three picks were for KC that year and Griffin was the fourth round guy. Who cares? If that's what it took to find your franchise QB it was worth every single one of those picks. Teams take QBs in the first round every single year and every single year most of them turn out to be Blaine Gabbert.

The Cousins talk is completely unsurprising in this town. Every preseason, the guy playing in the third and fourth quarters against the scrubs is the best QB on our team. Joe Theisman of all people should know better. I understand the frustration about Griffin though. I just want to see something from him that gives me some confidence he's going to deliver this season.

I had one small change of heart regarding Cousins. Our defense has actually looked... halfway decent so far. Like surprisingly better. Cousins didn't win any games in his starts last year, but I think playing on a team where he wasn't being asked to carry the entire team on his back he would do a good job.

Either way, for now I'm going to trust that Gruden knows which of those QBs is the best option for week one.

I love how when Campbell had to learn a new system every year, it was, "Give him time, it's a new system" and he still showed NOTHING his entire career. RGIII leads us to the playoffs, plays hurt and without practice and is learning a new system and people want to get rid of him after a few quarters of preseason. I won't blame him one bit when he leaves as a free agent.