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Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:13 pm
by DarthMonk
I am concerned about Bruce Allen being in charge of player acquisition. At this point, he seems to be the default. Here's something I dug up from a Tampa newpaper from 2010.
TAMPA — Bucs co-chairman Joel Glazer is right.
Whether you agree with his approach or not, it's hard to deny his basic premise that the team has drafted so poorly in recent years, it has had very few — if any — players worth re-signing to large contracts.
Take a look at the numbers.
The only player remaining from the 2004 draft is WR Michael Clayton, the Bucs' first-round pick whose career has gone south since his rookie year. The Bucs did re-sign Clayton last year to a five-year, $24 million contract with $10 million guaranteed. He rewarded them with 16 receptions.
The 2004 draft was the first under then-general manager Bruce Allen. The 2005 draft wasn't much better, netting only two starters from 13 picks — RB Cadillac Williams and LB Barrett Ruud — and no backups. Two of those picks are with other teams, and nine are out of the NFL.
Guards Davin Joseph and Jeremy Trueblood are the only starters remaining from the 2006 draft. From 11 draft choices, one other is a Bucs backup (WR Maurice Stovall), one is with another team, and seven are out of the league.
The 2007 draft was the Gaines Adams draft. Three starters remain: S Tanard Jackson, LB Quincy Black and S Sabby Piscitelli. Of the 10 picks, four are no longer in the NFL. The 2008 draft netted CB Aqib Talib in the first round. But it produced WR Dexter Jackson as a second-round pick. He was cut in training camp in August.
Without calling them out by name, Glazer placed the blame at the feet of Allen and ex-coach Jon Gruden, who controlled the draft from 2004 to 2008.
"We endured a lot of criticism many years ago in that journey to get (to the Super Bowl in the 2002 season)," Glazer said. "That's fine. We'll do what's best. A lot of people can't handle criticism. A lot of people react to the press. We're used to it, and sometimes that's leadership, to be able to take it on, fight through it and lead."
To be fair, college scouting director Dennis Hickey still is with the club, as are many of the scouts who helped produce those below-average drafts.
Do we want Allen in charge of our draft and our free agent decisions or do we want him to hire someone else to do that? I think I want the latter and I don't want that person to be the head coach too.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:41 pm
by riggofan
I guess we could be concerned, but I just took a look at the Bucs drafts since 2008. Not sure they immediately started hitting it out of the park once Allen and Gruden left. In fact, I think the Bucs first round pick after those guys were fired was Josh Freeman.
The Redskins drafts have been pretty good since he's been here. Does Allen get any credit for that? Did he have more authority over Gruden? I don't really know those answers myself.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:47 pm
by UK Skins Fan
In his press conference this week, Allen practically told the world that Shanahan had not paid any attention to the advice of Morocco Brown when it came to drat time. The man would have to be an idiot to allow himself to be portrayed as guilty of exactly the same fault some time in the future. Brown appears to be respected around the league, so he's the guy who should have the loudest voice in the room.
Of course, it remains to be seen whether Allen is an idiot or not!
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:06 pm
by Irn-Bru
So does he get any credit for some good drafts in DC, or not?
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:31 pm
by SkinsJock
Irn-Bru wrote:So does he get any credit for some good drafts in DC, or not?
I'd like to get someone in that is more of a real GM/personnel guy but ... it is what it is
Bruce Allen is in charge + a bunch of other guys (the FO, HC, OC, DC, & scouting staff) that are going to have input here - I think these guys will do well for us
I think that the Bruce Allen we have should be given a little more credit than he has recently
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:00 pm
by welch
I think Allen knows what he is doing, and I believe he knows his limitations.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:53 pm
by Redskin in Canada
welch wrote:I think Allen knows what he is doing, and I believe he knows his limitations.
May we remind ourselves that Bruce Allen was fired from Tampa?
May we recall that his main contributions have been as a capologist?
I am convinced that, on a political level, he is a very smart operator. Bringing somebody else in that role at an executive level would take away much of his current power and control. It ain't happening. He will sink or swim listening to hopefully good advice from Brown and Campbell.
The current structure of the FO leaves much to be desired and, most importantly, fails to fix the most important problem since 1999: Dan Snyder and his remaining power to become the final decider and ongoing desire to intervene at various levels of the team decisions and dynamics.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:18 pm
by cowboykillerzRGiii
Sounds like we have draft by committe and that's the way it should be. One guy might make the final.call but as long as multiple people are looking at different options and presenting their case in the war room.I could care less who "pulls" the trigger.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:44 pm
by Countertrey
Redskin in Canada wrote:welch wrote:I think Allen knows what he is doing, and I believe he knows his limitations.
May we remind ourselves that Bruce Allen was fired from Tampa?
May we recall that his main contributions have been as a capologist?
I am convinced that, on a political level, he is a very smart operator. Bringing somebody else in that role at an executive level would take away much of his current power and control. It ain't happening. He will sink or swim listening to hopefully good advice from Brown and Campbell.
The current structure of the FO leaves much to be desired and, most importantly, fails to fix the most important problem since 1999: Dan Snyder and his remaining power to become the final decider and ongoing desire to intervene at various levels of the team decisions and dynamics.
I just don't get this... As long as Allen is aware of his weaknesses, and ensures that he has sound advisors, that's really all that can be asked of any football exec. Brown is extremely well respected in the business... there's every reason to believe that the Scouting department is now a strength...
And, you can't do a damned thing about the owner. Other than the reported relationship with Bob, there is really no indication that Snyder has interfered since the arrival of Shanahan. Why would you continue to wring your hands over this? If he is out of the football business, that's great... but if not, just what the hell are you going to do about it? Stomp your feet? Pout? Burn your McNabb jersey?
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:04 pm
by Kilmer72
Countertrey wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:welch wrote:I think Allen knows what he is doing, and I believe he knows his limitations.
May we remind ourselves that Bruce Allen was fired from Tampa?
May we recall that his main contributions have been as a capologist?
I am convinced that, on a political level, he is a very smart operator. Bringing somebody else in that role at an executive level would take away much of his current power and control. It ain't happening. He will sink or swim listening to hopefully good advice from Brown and Campbell.
The current structure of the FO leaves much to be desired and, most importantly, fails to fix the most important problem since 1999: Dan Snyder and his remaining power to become the final decider and ongoing desire to intervene at various levels of the team decisions and dynamics.
I just don't get this... As long as Allen is aware of his weaknesses, and ensures that he has sound advisors, that's really all that can be asked of any football exec. Brown is extremely well respected in the business... there's every reason to believe that the Scouting department is now a strength...
And, you can't do a damned thing about the owner. Other than the reported relationship with Bob, there is really no indication that Snyder has interfered since the arrival of Shanahan. Why would you continue to wring your hands over this? If he is out of the football business, that's great... but if not, just what the hell are you going to do about it? Stomp your feet? Pout? Burn your McNabb jersey?
Exactly my thoughts. We may never win another game again. Snyder might burn down the childrens home and pray to Satan. Until this doesn't work out I have to go with it. I think leaning on his scouts where he falls short is what he should do. I wish we had the guru of GMs out there but it is what it is. Until we fail he hasn't earned my scorn yet. Bruce can do things that Mike couldn't. For example and I can't find the article to link it but Josh Wilson was a Mike hire that the scouts and JH said NO!!! What did he do? He hired him anyway. Our scouts are going to hit and miss but it will be done by comity rather than by dictatorship.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:31 pm
by Neo
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:Sounds like we have draft by committe and that's the way it should be. One guy might make the final.call but as long as multiple people are looking at different options and presenting their case in the war room.I could care less who "pulls" the trigger.
Nailed it brother!
Plus wasn't it Brown, or perhaps someone else, the guy we hired to help us with last year's draft? Seems to me that Allen knows his limitations (as Welch said), and there's evidence of that based on the guy they brought in last year to help.
Shanahan ignoring advice doesn't surprise me, and now I'm really pointing the finger at him for our failure.
Anyway, finger pointing isn't what I'm getting at here; just that Allen seems to bring in guys around him to make GM decisions collectively. I'd take this any day over one guy making decisions for all (assuming the right team of minds are in the mix).
A board of GMs if you will...
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:41 pm
by Neo
Countertrey wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:welch wrote:I think Allen knows what he is doing, and I believe he knows his limitations.
May we remind ourselves that Bruce Allen was fired from Tampa?
May we recall that his main contributions have been as a capologist?
I am convinced that, on a political level, he is a very smart operator. Bringing somebody else in that role at an executive level would take away much of his current power and control. It ain't happening. He will sink or swim listening to hopefully good advice from Brown and Campbell.
The current structure of the FO leaves much to be desired and, most importantly, fails to fix the most important problem since 1999: Dan Snyder and his remaining power to become the final decider and ongoing desire to intervene at various levels of the team decisions and dynamics.
I just don't get this... As long as Allen is aware of his weaknesses, and ensures that he has sound advisors, that's really all that can be asked of any football exec. Brown is extremely well respected in the business... there's every reason to believe that the Scouting department is now a strength...
And, you can't do a damned thing about the owner. Other than the reported relationship with Bob, there is really no indication that Snyder has interfered since the arrival of Shanahan. Why would you continue to wring your hands over this? If he is out of the football business, that's great... but if not, just what the hell are you going to do about it? Stomp your feet? Pout? Burn your McNabb jersey?
No disrespect intended towards RIC or anyone else, but I don't get many of the fans frustration about Snyder in his current state. There isn't any evidence of meddling. Having a man crush on RG3 doesn't bother me. In fact, it might be a good thing if the story about RG3 thinking Shanny didn't like him was true; at least he knows someone in charge likes him and he feels welcomed.
With all that's been said about Snyder, he's even resisted the temptation to barge in on press conferences to clear his name...that's consistent with someone who made a decision to stay out and it sticking to that decision.
On the GM topic, I think most of us are just having trouble with Allen's "title". We don't want him gone because of his cap genius, but many don't feel he's a true "GM". As I said in my last post (and others have said before me), as long as Allen is aware of his weaknesses and is bringing in "teammates" who are strong where he is weak, its all good.
Relax good people. We've obviously been living under the Shanny dictatorship for the past 4yrs...HE was being more Dan Snyder than Dan Snyder
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:02 pm
by frankcal20
Correct. Some have stated that Allen here as basically a guy who handles the contracts & structuring the cap. Morrocco Brown and I believe the other guy's name is Scott Campbell, along with regional scouts will be the ones in charge of making a draft board. I'm sure like all teams, coaches will have input on who they draft, area's of need, etc but based on what has been said, Allen is going to trust the guys who know what they're doing when it comes to evaluating talent and that's Brown & Campbell.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:57 am
by UK Skins Fan
welch wrote:I think Allen knows what he is doing, and I believe he knows his limitations.
There's the key part right there. Following on from that, does he defer to those who have greater expertise in those areas where he is weaker? We shall see - I'm hopeful, but the last 20 years have taught me not to be expectant.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:01 am
by UK Skins Fan
Irn-Bru wrote:So does he get any credit for some good drafts in DC, or not?
There are two questions there:
1) Have there been any good drafts in DC in the last four years?
2) If there have, does Allen receive any credit?
On the first question, I don't know yet. But I'd describe the drafting as patchy, at best. Some notable major successes such as Trent Williams and Alfred Morris. Some dreadful failures with regard to offensive linemen, or so it would seem.
On the second question, why would he get any credit if it was Shanahan running the entire show?
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:45 am
by Redskin in Canada
UK Skins Fan wrote:On the second question, why would he get any credit if it was Shanahan running the entire show?
The theory goes that
1) Mike Shanahan receives ALL the blame for his failure and the collective failure of staff around him to bring a disaster during the last season; and
2) Bruce Allen gets ALL the credit for the good Draft choices and Free Agent signings since day one of BOTH their arrival in Washington.
My goodness, I am not an apologist for Mike Shanahan, he trusted and BROUGHT the RIGHT man to manage the cap, his original job, but BROUGHT the WRONG power hungry politician to Washington, his most important failure. However, Mike has ALWAYS been given credit throughout his career for at least ONE THING:
Drafting good RBs and creating one-cut zone run schemes which allow them to flourish. Alfred Morris was a Mike Shanahan hire.
The rest of you can stop this nonsense of Bruce Allen being given credit as a good personnel guy. He never was and he is not now.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:01 am
by Redskin in Canada
Countertrey wrote:I just don't get this... As long as Allen is aware of his weaknesses, and ensures that he has sound advisors, that's really all that can be asked of any football exec. Brown is extremely well respected in the business... there's every reason to believe that the Scouting department is now a strength...
In fact, it has been an improvement from the days of Vinny and Dan, yes. But this same scouting department was working under Mike Shanahan the hated failure and scapegoat of this disaster.
Read on:
Bruce Allen takes control of Redskins with the slickness, and qualifications, of a politicianCountertrey wrote:And, you can't do a damned thing about the owner. Other than the reported relationship with Bob, there is really no indication that Snyder has interfered since the arrival of Shanahan. Why would you continue to wring your hands over this? If he is out of the football business, that's great... but if not, just what the hell are you going to do about it? Stomp your feet? Pout? Burn your McNabb jersey?
What to do? Me?
Well, for one, I will develop REALISTIC expectations about another cycle of announcements, expectations and then reality check with failure and new firings. That is all.
What might or will other fans do? I do not know but imagine the signs back in the stadium, complains in all forms of free media not controlled by Dan, and several other creative ways. Most will vote with their feet and stop buying tickets and merchandise. Some might even walk away from football for a while.
Others will regard these actions as unworthy of true fans. Hope is eternal and they feel that the job of a fan is cheer NO MATTER WHAT ... and since nobody can assure exactly what the future will bring, they will argue, you do not know until you know ... OVER and OVER and OVER again.
Milking the unending loyalty of a historic NFL franchise is a GREAT business. In fact, there is no motivation to sell ... until the cow runs out of milk.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:14 pm
by UK Skins Fan
Redskin in Canada wrote:UK Skins Fan wrote:On the second question, why would he get any credit if it was Shanahan running the entire show?
The theory goes that
1) Mike Shanahan receives ALL the blame for his failure and the collective failure of staff around him to bring a disaster during the last season; and
2) Bruce Allen gets ALL the credit for the good Draft choices and Free Agent signings since day one of BOTH their arrival in Washington.
It's a good theory, except that nobody believes it! We might all WANT to believe that the boil has been lanced by the removal of Shanahan, but I don't think there's anybody sane here who is willing to give Allen or Snyder a stamp of approval. I think Shanahan's getting a fair share of blame, but he certainly isn't getting all of it. Not from me, anyway.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:23 pm
by Jeremy81
so if morocco brown is so respected around the league, and he's in charge of making the draft board. and if bruce allen knows his limitations...then why don't you give brown the final say on who we draft and sign and leave it to bruce to sign these guys?
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:43 pm
by UK Skins Fan
Jeremy81 wrote:so if morocco brown is so respected around the league, and he's in charge of making the draft board. and if bruce allen knows his limitations...then why don't you give brown the final say on who we draft and sign and leave it to bruce to sign these guys?
Given that Brown is our supposed draft expert, and Campbell is the free agent man, I guess there has to be one single authority that pulls it all together. You can't have two separate strands of the player personnel function operating independently.
I'd rather we had one single "proper" GM making all the decisions, rather than this slightly bizarre three headed monster, but the Redskins seem to quite deliberately choose to do things differently to everybody else.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:11 pm
by Jeremy81
UK Skins Fan wrote:Jeremy81 wrote:so if morocco brown is so respected around the league, and he's in charge of making the draft board. and if bruce allen knows his limitations...then why don't you give brown the final say on who we draft and sign and leave it to bruce to sign these guys?
Given that Brown is our supposed draft expert, and Campbell is the free agent man, I guess there has to be one single authority that pulls it all together. You can't have two separate strands of the player personnel function operating independently.
I'd rather we had one single "proper" GM making all the decisions, rather than this slightly bizarre three headed monster, but the Redskins seem to quite deliberately choose to do things differently to everybody else.
well I guess that makes sense if brown and Campbell have the same input in their respective "expertise". if Campbell is the free agent guy and brown is the draft guy then I guess it makes sense that allen makes the final call for both. but I agree with you completely. get a real gm who has NO "limitations" to make the final say. but whatever, this is better then it has been
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:50 pm
by rskin72
Well, I do not think Allen's main job will be as drafter. As others have mentioned, think the bulk of input will be provided by Brown, Campbell, other scouts, and the HC. Think Allen will be invovled more in cap moves, overall Redskin name brand revival and fan experiences at FEDEX.
There are a lot of ways to crack the "winning franchise" nut in the NFL. This one may work out just fine...especially considering all the NFL contacts that Allen has.
And, at the end of the day...what are fans like us going to do? Band together and buy the team? I will say that so far I am pleased with what has happened after the release of Mike. I do not see a repeat of the Zorn experience by Allen. Whether or not his pick for HC works out is another issue, but all he can do is perform due diligence and get the best HC that he feels can move out team forward over the next several seasons.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:10 pm
by Countertrey
Jeremy81 wrote:UK Skins Fan wrote:Jeremy81 wrote:so if morocco brown is so respected around the league, and he's in charge of making the draft board. and if bruce allen knows his limitations...then why don't you give brown the final say on who we draft and sign and leave it to bruce to sign these guys?
Given that Brown is our supposed draft expert, and Campbell is the free agent man, I guess there has to be one single authority that pulls it all together. You can't have two separate strands of the player personnel function operating independently.
I'd rather we had one single "proper" GM making all the decisions, rather than this slightly bizarre three headed monster, but the Redskins seem to quite deliberately choose to do things differently to everybody else.
well I guess that makes sense if brown and Campbell have the same input in their respective "expertise". if Campbell is the free agent guy and brown is the draft guy then I guess it makes sense that allen makes the final call for both. but I agree with you completely.
get a real gm who has NO "limitations" to make the final say. but whatever, this is better then it has been
Ummm... ALL GM's have limitations. Problems occur when you have a GM who doesn't acknowledge his. I'm fine with what appears to be the current trend at Redskins Park.
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:26 pm
by Jeremy81
Ummm... ALL GM's have limitations. Problems occur when you have a GM who doesn't acknowledge his. I'm fine with what appears to be the current trend at Redskins Park.[/quote]
ummm...ok, all GM's have limitations. but I don't want my GM's major limitation to be on player personnel. like I said, I like the situation better the way it is now than it has been, but I believe it could be better...just my opinion
Re: Bruce Allen as a Drafter
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:46 pm
by Countertrey
Jeremy81 wrote:Countertrey wrote:Ummm... ALL GM's have limitations. Problems occur when you have a GM who doesn't acknowledge his. I'm fine with what appears to be the current trend at Redskins Park.
ummm...ok, all GM's have limitations. but I don't want my GM's major limitation to be on player personnel. like I said, I like the situation better the way it is now than it has been, but I believe it could be better...just my opinion
I'm sure "the Danny" will consider your concerns...