The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

A summary of how I think the Redskin mess unfolded.

Drafting RG3 was a DS decision - good short term financial decision but may not be a good football decision.

Drafting KC was a MS decision - we wondered WHY after drafting RG3. Was MS not comfortable with RG3 becoming a pocket QB?

In addition to the Redskins opponents in 2012, MS was surprised at the success of the read/option even to the point of playing RG3 when he was hurt.

In support of RG3, MS continued to say he gave the team the best chance to win. Was this real or just the company line. We know you can’t believe all you hear.

In 2013, MS must have thought the best system for the Redskins was to have a mobile pocket QB. Herein, lies the problem. This is not a RG3 strong point.

The unknown is - who is making the starting QB decision? If DS, then it doesn’t matter who the coach is as he will not be allowed to do his job. IF MS, I look for him to return and the starting QB job will be determined prior to the start of next yr. With both QBs having the opportunity to prove their value as a mobile pocket QB. LET THE BEST MAN WIN.

I'll be your huckleberry

When Mike came in here it was with the clear understanding that he was basically in charge of all things to do with the players and coaching staff and that Dan Snyder would not interfere with any of that - that agreement does not preclude Dan from having a 'relationship' or meeting on occasion with any player or any coach

I think that they have both kept to that 'agreement'

most of what we're hearing these days is IMHO a fabrication

so I guess I'm saying that I really don't see much of anything factual in that post



I'm of the opinion that it might be time for Mike to leave and I'm kind of OK with that but
there really is a slight chance that he and Dan might decide to leave things the way they are for the last year of his contract …

In the next month or so - we need a better personnel guy to come in as a real GM and we do need some changes to the coaching staff

SkinsJock - My point was to try and understand the sequence of events to date based on a couple facts.
1. MS drafted KC after RG3, many on the board wondered why.
2. MS was/is trying to make RG3 a pocket QB.
Who knows the real story but I was making a rational summary based on what is known.

SKINS#1 wrote:A summary of how I think the Redskin mess unfolded.

Drafting RG3 was a DS decision - good short term financial decision but may not be a good football decision.

Drafting KC was a MS decision - we wondered WHY after drafting RG3. Was MS not comfortable with RG3 becoming a pocket QB?

No, I didn't wonder that. Shanahan drafted Cousins because he couldn't pass up the value he presented. Look at the players who were drafted right around the time Cousins was. Would we rather have our team without Cousins but with Omar Bolden, Nigel Bradham, or Philip Blake? Let's not act like we passed up on Luke Kuechly to get him.

That is the way I understood too Irn. If there is any truth to the rumor that Dan drafted Robert then that isn't good. I would have been disappointed had we not moved up to get him.

SKINS#1 wrote:A summary of how I think the Redskin mess unfolded.

I think this is an excellent summary of how the Shanahan camp wants you to think the current mess unfolded. Whether its true or not, I don't have the slightest idea.

I will say this new story about Snyder being the one who wanted to draft RGIII, I just don't buy at all. Snyder may have been the guy who said do whatever it takes to move up, give up two number one picks, but really we're supposed to believe Snyder told Shanahan which QB we're drafting? That particular story just strikes me as complete BS.

There is simply no way that the RG3 pick was anything other than a Shanahan pick. Snyder loved the pick for marketing reasons, but there is absolutely no way that the pick would have been made if RG3 wasn't a guy that Shanahan wanted.

For a more likely scenario of how this mess arose, I'd refer you to the decision to move to a 3-4 defence for which we still don't have the best personnel, the appointment of a weak coaching staff, Shanahan's misplaced faith in his own talent evaluation capabilities, desperately poor selections of offensive linemen in the draft (apart from Trent, of course), a failure to recognise that RG3 needed to be taken out of the game against Seattle, and some seemingly very poor man management of our franchise QB.

In mitigation, it is fair to cite the cap penalty although it also fair to assert that, whilst the penalty was grossly unfair, it was also the result of a gamble by Shanahan and Allen that did not pay off.

The Zorn mess was on Snyder and Cerrato. Schottenheimer and Spurrier were on Snyder.

But THIS mess is almost entirely on Shanahan.

UK Skins Fan wrote:There is simply no way that the RG3 pick was anything other than a Shanahan pick. Snyder loved the pick for marketing reasons, but there is absolutely no way that the pick would have been made if RG3 wasn't a guy that Shanahan wanted.

For a more likely scenario of how this mess arose, I'd refer you to the decision to move to a 3-4 defence for which we still don't have the best personnel, the appointment of a weak coaching staff, Shanahan's misplaced faith in his own talent evaluation capabilities, desperately poor selections of offensive linemen in the draft (apart from Trent, of course), a failure to recognise that RG3 needed to be taken out of the game against Seattle, and some seemingly very poor man management of our franchise QB.

In mitigation, it is fair to cite the cap penalty although it also fair to assert that, whilst the penalty was grossly unfair, it was also the result of a gamble by Shanahan and Allen that did not pay off.

The Zorn mess was on Snyder and Cerrato. Schottenheimer and Spurrier were on Snyder.

But THIS mess is almost entirely on Shanahan.

+1 Ahhh I see we are using logic. Good luck.

riggofan wrote:

SKINS#1 wrote:A summary of how I think the Redskin mess unfolded.

I think this is an excellent summary of how the Shanahan camp wants you to think the current mess unfolded. Whether its true or not, I don't have the slightest idea.

I will say this new story about Snyder being the one who wanted to draft RGIII, I just don't buy at all. Snyder may have been the guy who said do whatever it takes to move up, give up two number one picks, but really we're supposed to believe Snyder told Shanahan which QB we're drafting? That particular story just strikes me as complete BS.

+1

UK Skins Fan wrote:In mitigation, it is fair to cite the cap penalty although it also fair to assert that, whilst the penalty was grossly unfair, it was also the result of a gamble by Shanahan and Allen that did not pay off.

We were going to lose that cap space because of Haynesworth and D. Hall contracts either way. Its not like we only lost the cap space because of what Shanahan and Allen did. So no its not really fair or correct to say that it was Shanahan/Allen's fault that we didn't have cap space for free agents the past two years.

I agree with most of what you wrote otherwise!

The seeds of our destruction were planted at the beginning when Shanny spent huge time, energy, and money to switch to the 4-3, which we were not equipped to run, and consequently refused to develop the offensive line to an acceptable degree. Other bad decisions followed, and some bad luck, but the tone was set.

^^^ THIS.

crazyhorse1 wrote:The seeds of our destruction were planted at the beginning when Shanny spent huge time, energy, and money to switch to the 4-3, which we were not equipped to run, and consequently refused to develop the offensive line to an acceptable degree. Other bad decisions followed, and some bad luck, but the tone was set.

Plus 1. Switching the defense is the biggest screw up overall.

SKINS#1 wrote:SkinsJock - My point was to try and understand the sequence of events to date based on a couple facts.
1. MS drafted KC after RG3, many on the board wondered why.
2. MS was/is trying to make RG3 a pocket QB.
Who knows the real story but I was making a rational summary based on what is known.

I agree that nobody knows for sure but we were told by Mike at the time when there were MANY questioning why Mike would take another QB he said "we could not believe he was there - we were not planning on taking him but we could not pass him up - it was too good a player to pass on"

So there were no ulterior motives as far as we know

and then a short time later we all thought that maybe we could get a draft pick for him …

now, I think we keep him - getting a first round pick is not worth it IMHO

why risk taking a first round player when you have a good back up QB - I think we keep him

there are a lot of BS reports out there of Dan being involved with what happens on the field or that Dan and Mike are not getting along at all well

there's something happening here and it's not at all good but I do NOT believe its because of a rift or misunderstanding between Mike and Dan

Here's how this unfolded. Griffin was drafted by Shannahan with a push from Snyder, but ultimately, Shannahan pulled the trigger.

Griffin got hurt, and came back too early and spent too much time in the offseason doing commercials and documentaries. He got too big for his britches and the team started seeing him as an entitled diva. He rushed his recovery and came back in week one. Shannahan had "concerns" about him coming back which were never shared. Those concerns could have been the following A) he was concerned Robert was not 100% B) he was concerned that he could get hurt again C) he was concerned that he pushed his recovery based on sponsorship D) he was ultimately concerned that IF he was not ready to play, that Shannahan wouldn't be able to make a switch to Cousins because of mandates by Snyder.

As time went on, it became clear to the coaching staff that Griffin wasn't making decisions fast enough in the pocket. The only way they could stay competitive in games was to run the read option, which Griffins dad was saying no to. He was not reading defenses, while missing wide open receivers. The coaches were showing these plays on film day to show the team that they were not all at fault for giving up sacks, the offense not moving, and receivers not getting balls. Players took notice. Griffin requested that they not show the film because he was embarrassment. Garcon quietly told the truth about how Griffin was not the same. That the passing game sucked. Griffin started challenging Garcon to races and other BS, when, had he just looked in the mirror and dropped his ego, Griffin would have realized that he was in fact, not as good as last year. He never took accountability and the players took notice. Kyle was trying to get Griffin to realize that he was in fact accountable for the lack of the production and the relationship started to crack, and I wouldn't be surprised if Griffin blamed Kyle for his role in the teams failures by exposing his poor play to the team.

Time went on and losing compounded the problem and the relationship between Kyle and Griffin continued to break apart. I truly feel that Kyle wants to win and that's all he's concerned with. He's all business but that tough love attitude is counter to what Griffin needs. Griffin needs someone to stroke his ego and Kyle wasn't doing it. Then Mike stepped in and benched Griffin. Kirk comes in and runs the offense MUCH better. And now, I really think Shannahan is worried that he he has a MAJOR quarterback controversy brewing. He was playing this down in the presser, but if he wasn't worried about it, then he would be praising Kirk's performance. Mike always does that...downplays the things he is thinking about, and hypes up things that are not good. He's the master of the smokescreen. Reference John Beck and any injury that he's reported on over the last 4 years. Not only that, but I think the players support Mike more than they do Griffin. You hear that in comments made by guys like Moss who calls Griffin out for not being a leader. I think these players want Mike back, and that is a BIG problem. It's Mike and the players versus Griffin, Snyder and Griffins parents.

Now you hear Shannahan saying that he will return IF he can run the team his way. What does that really mean? I think Kyle is going to be allowed to interview with other teams. He's going to move on next year. Haslett may be replaced. I would put that at 50%. I think Wade Phillips will be brought in and I would love that. Kubiack will be hired as an OC and Rick Dennison will be brought in as O-Line coach. But ultimately, what did Shannahan mean when he said, I want to coach here if I can coach the team my way? I think that means that when all's said and done, the mandate will be to Snyder that he's going to play the best QB, no matter what and there will be absolutely NO contact between him and Griffin. Griffin needs to make it without the perceived relationship with Snyder. The players have to trust that Shannahan will play THE best player. And if Snyder is not on board with that, then he's going to have to fire him. Even Gruden alluded to it on Monday night football. He said that IF a new coach comes in here, that new coach may just pick Cousins to start over Griffin...careful for what you wish for...but we all know, as do the players, that the owner won't let that happen and will be a prerequisite for the next coach. Is that really in our best interest?

I think we have a QB situation brewing here. You're already hearing noise about how QB competition is healthy in Shannahan's presser yesterday. This is right after it was said that there is no QB controversy.... And competition is VERY healthy for Griffin and for this franchise. If worried about losing his job, I think it will do one of two things...expose him as an entitled kid, or push him to be a better player. And if he can't handle the competition, it wouldn't surprise me AT ALL, if Griffin is traded. And although his upside is better than almost anyone out there, his attitude is what I think is going to hold this kid back if it doesn't change. So it's for this reason, I made a call last week that I thought Mike is coming back next year, and I support it. He is going to get Snyder to back the hell out of the entire picture, and that's THE only way this franchise returns to greatness

We as fans all that we can do is speculate about what is going on. As said before, I think Sahanny & Co MUST leave, Kirk should stay, No Baylor coach should be hired.

In this season, now 2 things are new to me after +30 yrs of being a fan

a) bullying in the lockeroom
b) Parents callingg plays to be run for the best of his son

I must be getting old!!!!!!

HaiL,

crazyhorse1 wrote:The seeds of our destruction were planted at the beginning when Shanny spent huge time, energy, and money to switch to the 4-3, which we were not equipped to run, and consequently refused to develop the offensive line to an acceptable degree. Other bad decisions followed, and some bad luck, but the tone was set.

I think this is a completely fair argument. If Shanny had taken over any other team in the league, switching to the 4-3 may have been a perfectly reasonable idea. But it was too much of a project to take on with everything else that needed to be fixed with this team. With the other problems that popped up over the last few years (QBs not working out, cap penalty, etc;) having this atrocious 4-3 defense has hampered everything.

riggofan wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:The seeds of our destruction were planted at the beginning when Shanny spent huge time, energy, and money to switch to the 4-3, which we were not equipped to run, and consequently refused to develop the offensive line to an acceptable degree. Other bad decisions followed, and some bad luck, but the tone was set.

I think this is a completely fair argument. If Shanny had taken over any other team in the league, switching to the 4-3 may have been a perfectly reasonable idea. But it was too much of a project to take on with everything else that needed to be fixed with this team. With the other problems that popped up over the last few years (QBs not working out, cap penalty, etc;) having this atrocious 4-3 defense has hampered everything.

3-4 not 4-3.

I don't know we will learn definitively until Shanny leaves the Redskins and says Griffin was drafted over my objections. I don't think Griffin was a Shanny pick I think Snyder swung for the fence again and missed badly. I don't think Shanny would have banked his career and repetition on spending 3 first round and a 2nd round pricks on a college option quarterback, it is so risky because he is measured by wins and losses but from Snyder's point of view every game is a sellout so the only way to make more money is to spike merchandise sales and a megadeal for Griffin was a real bonanza in jersey sales. Griffin didn't have to do anything before Jersey sales went crazy fans just to get emotionally invested in him and a master marketer like Snyder could foresee a big play would yield big hype and astronomical jersey sales whether Griffin thrived on the field for 10 years or not.

OldSchool wrote:I don't think Griffin was a Shanny pick I think Snyder swung for the fence again and missed badly.

There's no chance of that being the case. I'm sure the Danny was on board with the decision, but there is no way Shanahan would trade that many picks if he wasn't 100% behind drafting RGIII. Cousins was a pure value pick, nothing more.

Deadskins wrote:3-4 not 4-3.

You know once is a typo. Twice in a day may be that I'm an idiot.

Deadskins wrote:

OldSchool wrote:I don't think Griffin was a Shanny pick I think Snyder swung for the fence again and missed badly.

There's no chance of that being the case. I'm sure the Danny was on board with the decision, but there is no way Shanahan would trade that many picks if he wasn't 100% behind drafting RGIII. Cousins was a pure value pick, nothing more.

Yeah I know some people seem to want to believe that story, but there is just no way that is true. The big deal when Shanahan signed here was about how he had this no meddling, totally autonomous contract. The idea that not only did Snyder foist this starting QB on him, but gave away two addditional first round picks in the process is ludicrous.

This is how JLC (no big fan of Dan Snyder) put it on CBS the other day:

And if Snyder was indeed meddling -- and violating Shanahan's contract by trying to force him to make trades and start certain players -- you can bet it would have taken well before Shanahan's 60th game at the helm before it starting trickling out from his buddies in the media. He would have been on the phone with his lawyer and collected his money and bolted out of town carrying the loot long ago.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jas ... -shanahans

Note the part about "violating" Shanahan's contract. There's just no way things happened that way.

chiefhog44 wrote:Here's how this unfolded. Griffin was drafted by Shannahan with a push from Snyder, but ultimately, Shannahan pulled the trigger.

Griffin got hurt, and came back too early and spent too much time in the offseason doing commercials and documentaries. He got too big for his britches and the team started seeing him as an entitled diva. He rushed his recovery and came back in week one. Shannahan had "concerns" about him coming back which were never shared. Those concerns could have been the following A) he was concerned Robert was not 100% B) he was concerned that he could get hurt again C) he was concerned that he pushed his recovery based on sponsorship D) he was ultimately concerned that IF he was not ready to play, that Shannahan wouldn't be able to make a switch to Cousins because of mandates by Snyder.

As time went on, it became clear to the coaching staff that Griffin wasn't making decisions fast enough in the pocket. The only way they could stay competitive in games was to run the read option, which Griffins dad was saying no to. He was not reading defenses, while missing wide open receivers. The coaches were showing these plays on film day to show the team that they were not all at fault for giving up sacks, the offense not moving, and receivers not getting balls. Players took notice. Griffin requested that they not show the film because he was embarrassment. Garcon quietly told the truth about how Griffin was not the same. That the passing game sucked. Griffin started challenging Garcon to races and other BS, when, had he just looked in the mirror and dropped his ego, Griffin would have realized that he was in fact, not as good as last year. He never took accountability and the players took notice. Kyle was trying to get Griffin to realize that he was in fact accountable for the lack of the production and the relationship started to crack, and I wouldn't be surprised if Griffin blamed Kyle for his role in the teams failures by exposing his poor play to the team.

Time went on and losing compounded the problem and the relationship between Kyle and Griffin continued to break apart. I truly feel that Kyle wants to win and that's all he's concerned with. He's all business but that tough love attitude is counter to what Griffin needs. Griffin needs someone to stroke his ego and Kyle wasn't doing it. Then Mike stepped in and benched Griffin. Kirk comes in and runs the offense MUCH better. And now, I really think Shannahan is worried that he he has a MAJOR quarterback controversy brewing. He was playing this down in the presser, but if he wasn't worried about it, then he would be praising Kirk's performance. Mike always does that...downplays the things he is thinking about, and hypes up things that are not good. He's the master of the smokescreen. Reference John Beck and any injury that he's reported on over the last 4 years. Not only that, but I think the players support Mike more than they do Griffin. You hear that in comments made by guys like Moss who calls Griffin out for not being a leader. I think these players want Mike back, and that is a BIG problem. It's Mike and the players versus Griffin, Snyder and Griffins parents.

Now you hear Shannahan saying that he will return IF he can run the team his way. What does that really mean? I think Kyle is going to be allowed to interview with other teams. He's going to move on next year. Haslett may be replaced. I would put that at 50%. I think Wade Phillips will be brought in and I would love that. Kubiack will be hired as an OC and Rick Dennison will be brought in as O-Line coach. But ultimately, what did Shannahan mean when he said, I want to coach here if I can coach the team my way? I think that means that when all's said and done, the mandate will be to Snyder that he's going to play the best QB, no matter what and there will be absolutely NO contact between him and Griffin. Griffin needs to make it without the perceived relationship with Snyder. The players have to trust that Shannahan will play THE best player. And if Snyder is not on board with that, then he's going to have to fire him. Even Gruden alluded to it on Monday night football. He said that IF a new coach comes in here, that new coach may just pick Cousins to start over Griffin...careful for what you wish for...but we all know, as do the players, that the owner won't let that happen and will be a prerequisite for the next coach. Is that really in our best interest?

I think we have a QB situation brewing here. You're already hearing noise about how QB competition is healthy in Shannahan's presser yesterday. This is right after it was said that there is no QB controversy.... And competition is VERY healthy for Griffin and for this franchise. If worried about losing his job, I think it will do one of two things...expose him as an entitled kid, or push him to be a better player. And if he can't handle the competition, it wouldn't surprise me AT ALL, if Griffin is traded. And although his upside is better than almost anyone out there, his attitude is what I think is going to hold this kid back if it doesn't change. So it's for this reason, I made a call last week that I thought Mike is coming back next year, and I support it. He is going to get Snyder to back the hell out of the entire picture, and that's THE only way this franchise returns to greatness

Well thought out post Chief. I'm sure some things happened differently but this is probably pretty accurate. I would also point out that I think MOST of the stuff that we're hearing from "sources" isn't the truth or hearsay.

Here's how things really went down since the 2012 draft
Griffin was drafted by the Redskins FO after Mike informed Dan that he was hoping to pull off a HUGE trade - Dan said "it's your decision and I support you"

After a great rookie season, Griffin got hurt and came back after the Dr cleared him to play again - UNFORTUNATELY he missed a lot of time not being able to work with the offense which was changing from what they ran the year before. Both Kyle and Mike were concerned about the learning curve but felt they should keep this to themselves - Robert was also concerned about the knee and the new offense that required him to play the game 'differently' than he was comfortable with - the knee felt like it was good to go but the "mental healing" was a bit of an issue - Robert also felt a HUGE responsibility to his coaches & to the offense to play better & help his team
Kyle and Mike gave Robert as much support as they could but it was obvious that it was not going to be a quick fix As time went on, it became clear to the coaching staff that Griffin wasn't making decisions fast enough in the pocket. He was missing open receivers and did not seem to be able to read what the defense was giving him
The transition to becoming more of a pocket passer was clearly hurt by Robert missing out on the offseason work and the pre season games. Pierre Garcon and some of the other players took Robert aside and tried to help him - the fact was - nobody was really in sync
Robert was having a difficult time adjusting and kept pressing to be a better player

Kyle and Mike were at odds over what was better - getting Robert in sync with the new offense or perhaps trying to run more of the old offense again

at this time the Redskins were having issues across the board - the Special Teams and defensive secondary were proving to be the worst in the NFL

Finally Mike decided he'd had enough - time to get ready for next season and he was not about to risk his best QB getting hurt when the opposing defenses were just trying to put him down on each and every play - he benched Robert and said - that's it, were going with Kirk for now - he will benefit from the game experience

Mike is hoping that he will be able to finish out his contract and have 1 more year with this incredible QB and Alfred Morris

Dan Snyder is hoping that he is not going to have to look for a new HC - he wants Mike to finish what he started

the media is salivating at being able to issue bogus reports and have the 2 guys they hate (Dan and Mike) not even offer any defense because neither is 'available'