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North Korea

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:26 am
by Redskin in Canada
Some of you might be interested to learn more about it beyond the publicity stunts by Kim Jung Un shown by CNN or the BBC:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html

http://www.stratfor.com/

http://csis.org/

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en.aspx

It is a BLUFF, people. It is a BLUFF.

a BLUFF with an internal domestic agenda and blackmail intentions towards the outside written all over it.

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:49 am
by tribeofjudah
Hey RIC, please explain the "bluff" in layman's terms....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:49 pm
by Redskin in Canada
tribeofjudah wrote:Hey RIC, please explain the "bluff" in layman's terms....


Easy links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluff

a deception for intimidation purposes

If you have played poker, you already know:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluff_(poker)

a threat that cannot be executed

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:11 pm
by HTTRRG3ALMO
Corner a dog & the barking is replaced with biting.

Don't mistake me for a war junkie, but enough is enough. I hope there is a joint effort to take this guy out and somehow unite Korea. Don't want to see the US do it (alone) as this will only hurt us more in the international community.

Trying to reason with someone out of their mind is the same as trying to reason with an intoxicated drunk. It isn't going anyway good and nothing is going to sink in.

Threatening nuclear war should be taken just as seriously as a nuclear bomb that's already hit a nation.

Re: North Korea

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:14 am
by Countertrey
Redskin in Canada wrote:Some of you might be interested to learn more about it beyond the publicity stunts by Kim Jung Un shown by CNN or the BBC:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html

http://www.stratfor.com/

http://csis.org/

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en.aspx

It is a BLUFF, people. It is a BLUFF.

a BLUFF with an internal domestic agenda and blackmail intentions towards the outside written all over it.


Not sure what your point is, RiC... but the world repeatedly falls for the tantruming, and gives the PRK what it wants... It needs to be completely ignored. China is responsible for the recurrences of this, and for the continued poverty of the North Korean people because they refuse to impose truly effective actions to force appropriate international behavior by the tyrants in charge of the PRK.

It will not end until the PRK is forced to collapse. Period.

Re: North Korea

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:29 am
by Deadskins
Countertrey wrote:China is responsible for the recurrences of this

+1

Re: North Korea

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:31 pm
by UK Skins Fan
Deadskins wrote:
Countertrey wrote:China is responsible for the recurrences of this

+1

Thank god. So this one isn't OUR fault?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:52 pm
by Deadskins
UnKnown Skins Fan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Countertrey wrote:China is responsible for the recurrences of this

+1

Thank god. So this one isn't OUR fault?

The French? Only partially.

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:17 pm
by Countertrey
Deadskins wrote:
UnKnown Skins Fan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Countertrey wrote:China is responsible for the recurrences of this

+1

Thank god. So this one isn't OUR fault?

The French? Only partially.
Isn't that a given?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:43 am
by UK Skins Fan
Deadskins wrote:
UnKnown Skins Fan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Countertrey wrote:China is responsible for the recurrences of this

+1

Thank god. So this one isn't OUR fault?

The French? Only partially.

Up yours Fritz.

Re: North Korea

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:02 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Countertrey wrote:Not sure what your point is, RiC... but the world repeatedly falls for the tantruming, and gives the PRK what it wants... It needs to be completely ignored.

It is not as simple as that. I wish it was.

China is responsible for the recurrences of this, and for the continued poverty of the North Korean people because they refuse to impose truly effective actions to force appropriate international behavior by the tyrants in charge of the PRK.

The regime was not created by PRC. It was created by the Soviet military. PRC benefits from the distraction but if you are under the impression that they truly control N kore, you would be mistaken. They are an important tempering force in that regime, perhaps the only one but they are no the "deciders" in Pyongyang.

N Korea is a great source of natural resources and business to PRC. They do not want US troops next to its borders in a unified Korea. But EVEN for them, these tantrums are more than a bit too much.

THEIR explanation is that this is a maneuver designed to consolidate a domestic agenda of power and control for a man-child truly managed by the top elite of the N Korea military. Remember, this is the 3rd son, from a mistress actually, to his father. The other two are a drunk/gambler in Macau and a gay guy both kept very far away from public display in N Korea.

It will not end until the PRK is forced to collapse. Period.

So far, all of these are threats envisaged to force the West to negotiate from a position of strength induced by blackmail and to consolidate power from within.

HOWEVER, if and when the N korea regime feels that it is not viable or sustainable economically, there is an ACTUAL risk that they will commit something stupid as a suicide action taking others with them.

To me the REAL threshold is whether they move ahead with their nuclear program or not. Not very different than Iran, by the way. :roll:

Interestingly, both the nuclear programs in Iran and N Korea were fostered from information and knowledge from the Pakistan program, not PRC, by the way.

So, stay tuned. We are leaving a far more complex and dangerous World to our children than the one we inherited from our parents. :explode:

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:31 pm
by Countertrey
RiC, please do not assume I am uninformed. While you and I do not always agree regarding the direction the world should take, I am fully aware of the etiology of the nuclear problem that North Korea currently presents, and of the role played by the duplicitous Pakistanis. Through 32 years in the US military, I always kept an ear towards Korea...

You and I both know, that the bottom line is, without China, the DPRK whithers and dies. The Chinese have obstructed real progress for decades for their own (unusually) short sighted purposes.

The Chinese prop them... and do so primarily because,
1: the provide a foil that has no direct connection to China, but on which China can rely on to irritate and annoy the ROK, Japan, The United States, and, to a lesser extent, the Taiwan. China gets plausible deniability... but we know...
2. They need the government of the DPRK to continue to function to avoid a flood of North Korean refugees from streaming across the Yalu.
3. The PDRK forms a buffer against the ROK, which is an industrial powerhouse, and has a very potent military capability in it's own right. They would prefer not to have a highly successful, capitalist and truly democratic nation, which is, OBTW, militarily very competent, on it's northeastern border.

If Peking tells P'yongyang to knock the crap off... it will stop.

I agree that the question of nuclear weapons complicates this further... for that, I blame Bush, Clinton, and Bush 2. There were opportunities to turn the screws back then... but, nobody wanted to either piss of China, nor assume the risk that they might be blamed for a humanitarian disaster occurring in North Korea... After the first time Kim the second reniged on a deal without cause, everyone except Foggy Bottom and it's White House master knew that there was no agreement that Kim would abide once getting his treat.

Better to bite the bullet NOW than to continue to play this game until Korea actually has the ability to Nuke the ROK into oblivion and do real damage to US Cities.

Your threshold ("whether they move ahead with their nuclear program or not"), btw, has been crossed multiple times, now. At what point do we stop playing this game? When do we draw a line and actually enforce it? After mushroom clouds appear over Taejon, Pusan, Taegu? After he has 50 reliable ICBM's aimed at cities in the US and Canada? What does the blackmail look like then?

Regarding your last...
We are leaving a far more complex and dangerous World to our children than the one we inherited from our parents

Yes, it's pretty messy... on the other hand, NATO and the WARSAW Pact are no longer looking at each other down the sights of long guns and held back only by "mutually assured destruction"... Have you forgotten what that was like?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:40 pm
by SkinsJock
I understand this idiot has nuclear weapons - do they have the capability to put a nuclear warhead on a missile that is capable of reaching the continental US?

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:39 pm
by Irn-Bru
If anyone here hasn't watched the documentary "Crossing the Line," please check it out. It's fascinating.

(Edit. Found a link. Not great quality, but anyway here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okeL5Xk1qz4)

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:44 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Countertrey wrote:RiC, please do not assume I am uninformed. While you and I do not always agree regarding the direction the world should take, I am fully aware of the etiology of the nuclear problem that North Korea currently presents, and of the role played by the duplicitous Pakistanis. Through 32 years in the US military, I always kept an ear towards Korea...

When I post in this public forum, I am aware that my posts can be read by people with a wide range of backgrounds. Some might be old enough to have been veterans of the war or young enough to have obtained an academic specialization on this topic. Others may not be able to find North Korea on a map or know what the forgotten war was about. Most are somewhere in between both ends of the spectrum.

You and I both know, that the bottom line is, without China, the DPRK whithers and dies. The Chinese have obstructed real progress for decades for their own (unusually) short sighted purposes.

A complete statement would include a reference to the fact that PRC did not "create" DPRK. That "creation" is due to one of the most backward members of the Soviet military who never had anything but a very rudimentary set of Stalinist ideas about nation building.

DPRK is useful to PRC, no doubt. But one must be very careful to blame the Chinese government for "obstructing real progress". That is where i definitely disagree and argue that this is a far more complex case than the single blame scenario proposed in that one-liner.

The Chinese prop them... and do so primarily because,
1: the provide a foil that has no direct connection to China, but on which China can rely on to irritate and annoy the ROK, Japan, The United States, and, to a lesser extent, the Taiwan. China gets plausible deniability... but we know...

The above statement assumes that PRC has a great deal of control over DPRK policies and decisions.You would be wrong, in my view. While the "usefulness" of the scenario proposed is undeniable, the cause and effect link is simply not true.

2. They need the government of the DPRK to continue to function to avoid a flood of North Korean refugees from streaming across the Yalu.

Another very secondary element in the PRC's calculations. I would argue that a strange mix of tension, peace and stability is essential to their cause. PRC does not want an armed conflict anymore than RK, Japan or the USA. While the strength of the North Korean military lies mainly on conventional weapons, EVERYBODY I know in the region affirms that they would have no qualms whatsoever to use their chemical and biological weapons soon after the conflict starts. Yes, such use would be suicide but we are not talking with a rational State.

3. The PDRK forms a buffer against the ROK, which is an industrial powerhouse, and has a very potent military capability in it's own right. They would prefer not to have a highly successful, capitalist and truly democratic nation, which is, OBTW, militarily very competent, on it's northeastern border.

It is not a unified South Korean military that concerns PRC. Trust me, the capability of the South Korean forces is no match to the power of the Chinese ever growing and increasingly sophisticated defence forces. It is the presence of US forces immediately next to their border that creates a great deal of concern to them.

If Peking tells P'yongyang to knock the crap off... it will stop.
Actually, this is NOT true. I wil not argue. I know for a fact the anger and discomfort in Beijing about their recent behaviour. DPRK and PRC have communicated and the exchanges have been difficult recently.

I agree that the question of nuclear weapons complicates this further... for that, I blame Bush, Clinton, and Bush 2. There were opportunities to turn the screws back then... but, nobody wanted to either piss of China, nor assume the risk that they might be blamed for a humanitarian disaster occurring in North Korea... After the first time Kim the second reniged on a deal without cause, everyone except Foggy Bottom and it's White House master knew that there was no agreement that Kim would abide once getting his treat.
The famine of the 90's was responsible for the starvation of over a million North Koreans. The regime survived. I do not think that you should blame your politicians that bad, even if they deserve it. Remember that North Korea is an afterthought and almost a headache for them. Their focus was the middle-east, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Pakistan and Afghanistan. You can over-extend the capabilities of US armed forces only so much. Not to mention the economic and human cost of fighting too many fronts at the same time.

Better to bite the bullet NOW than to continue to play this game until Korea actually has the ability to Nuke the ROK into oblivion and do real damage to US Cities.
Cost versus benefit. I would argue that there might be peaceful means which may still lend positive results rather than to pay the enormous cost of another war.

Yes, war may happen and we must and will be ready when it is unavoidable. But there are still powerful options available to us to control the situation. Are they sure to work? No. But they have a good chance.

Your threshold ("whether they move ahead with their nuclear program or not"), btw, has been crossed multiple times, now. At what point do we stop playing this game? When do we draw a line and actually enforce it? After mushroom clouds appear over Taejon, Pusan, Taegu? After he has 50 reliable ICBM's aimed at cities in the US and Canada? What does the blackmail look like then?

There are ways to know.

Regarding your last...
We are leaving a far more complex and dangerous World to our children than the one we inherited from our parents

Yes, it's pretty messy... on the other hand, NATO and the WARSAW Pact are no longer looking at each other down the sights of long guns and held back only by "mutually assured destruction"... Have you forgotten what that was like?

I have absolutely no doubt that the situation is worse NOW. During the Cold War you had rational people in charge of pressing the buttons. The Cuban crisis was a great example of that. All conflicts fought by forces by either side were conducted with conventional weapons during that period.

Today, you have fanatics with the capability of WMD in Iran and North Korea with dreams of martyrdom in defence of their causes. Both regions are equally unstable now, in my view.

I recently gave my views on disputes in Asia in an international conference of experts on this field in your country. It was well received. :wink:

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:17 pm
by Deadskins
Redskin in Canada wrote:Today, you have fanatics with the capability of WMD in Iran and North Korea with dreams of martyrdom in defence of their causes. Both regions are equally unstable now, in my view.

I recently gave my views on disputes in Asia in an international conference of experts on this field in your country. It was well received. :wink:

I don't think that report should be well recieved. :shock:

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:18 pm
by HTTRRG3ALMO
SkinsJock wrote:I understand this idiot has nuclear weapons - do they have the capability to put a nuclear warhead on a missile that is capable of reaching the continental US?


Obama doesn't believe they do...look into that any way you wish; I personally don't like the word "believe". In other words why doesn't our country's leadership know for sure?

However, its also irrelevant whether or not N. Korea has the ability to do so; they're obviously attempting it.

What has me scratching my head is why are we waiting for them to fully have this capacity? I'm all about a peaceful world; sometimes there needs to be conflict to reach that goal because some people cannot be reasoned with and only want to destroy the world.

Now there's a major threat that could affect many countries. I really wish there would be a multi-nation surgical removal of the N. Korean government. Yes, it will be a messy and very drawn out/time consuming process, but if we wait till this guy nukes cities, we all will be in a far worse position.

Let's say NK does nuke a country, then that country nukes NK. The more "nuking" that happens, the more desensitized the world will become to it; eventually making it an "acceptable" means of warfare as opposed to a last resort emergency survival weapon.

What I'm getting at is the more we're exposed to something, the less "disgusting" it will become.

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:22 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Deadskins wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:Today, you have fanatics with the capability of WMD in Iran and North Korea with dreams of martyrdom in defence of their causes. Both regions are equally unstable now, in my view.

I recently gave my views on disputes in Asia in an international conference of experts on this field in your country. It was well received. :wink:

I don't think that report should be well recieved. :shock:

You should inform them. :lol:

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:09 pm
by Countertrey
... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:46 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before hell breaks out.

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:33 am
by HTTRRG3ALMO
Redskin in Canada wrote:
Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before @#!*% breaks out.


With all respect, peaceful options never solved this problem over the past several years. N. Korea's leadership is getting crazier and crazier with each successor.

If a leader is threatening nuclear warfare simply to bolster his own power/international manipulation, he's a threat to the international community and all countries should see him as such.

If we allow this guy to threaten nuclear warfare the way he is and just give him food as appeasement, what message is that sending to the world? "Its ok to act crazy and threaten to destroy countries to get your way." This is serious!! Someone is going to cry wolf so many times that we're going to eventually become unalarmed by such threats.

I don't want to see the US go in there alone. Not that we couldn't handle it, but because I'd like for us to lose the "world police" image.

Its painful to write this, but if you look at history, power hungry people who don't care about the world around them can never be talked into sanity. War has been the only thing that has brought peace when dealing with leaderships like N. Korea. I don't like this, but history is written in ink.

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:42 am
by Countertrey
Redskin in Canada wrote:
Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before hell breaks out.


RiC... it appears to me that the only "peaceful" option truly in play here is appeasement... again, and again... It is a pathetic excuse for action, and we all know where that leads.

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:06 am
by Redskin in Canada
Countertrey wrote:RiC... it appears to me that the only "peaceful" option truly in play here is appeasement... again, and again... It is a pathetic excuse for action, and we all know where that leads.

Again, I do not think most of the public is capable to discuss the complexity and danger surrounding this issue not only on itself but particularly in the context of other regional disputes.

First, I am not sure that most readers would know how painful and deadly this conflict would become, not only to the armed forces involved, but to the general Korean civilian population north and south.

Second, most readers are not aware of the extremely complex choices that States in the region might need to make in the context of other regional disputes where their "allies" might become foes or their foes might become allies.

Third, the war-now logic not only fails to address the above two points. It also fails to explain some of the most important political and economic transformations of our time: the fall of the Soviet Union and the political transformation of Russia; and the transformation of the PRC economic system from being one of the most backward and fanatical cultural revolution to what amounts to a market system producing one of the largest GDP and sustained growth rates in the world over the last decade.

So, before you ask your government to pull the trigger, remember: the people in charge have a lot more information and elements than those which can be explained to the public in a few minutes interview in CNN for general public consumption. I share your frustration. I just do not feel that you have all the elements to make te call accurately or correctly.

However, for what it is worth and the initial point of this thread: It is perfectly clear to all that these recent events are nothing but a bluff with the purpose to extract advantages at a negotiation table. The true important or even realistic issue is not whether military action might be taken but how those negotiations are conducted. And relating to that point, the strongest response should be: no food, no lifting of sanctions, no relief of any kind, no reward of any kind for criminal behaviour.

This response is stronger than anything else.

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:02 pm
by HTTRRG3ALMO
Countertrey wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before @#!*% breaks out.


RiC... it appears to me that the only "peaceful" option truly in play here is appeasement... again, and again... It is a pathetic excuse for action, and we all know where that leads.


Exactly, and this "appeasement" is merely demonstrating that the US is now willing to negotiate with terrorists...be prepared for more of this from other nations/groups if we continue to allow this with N. Korea.

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:30 pm
by Countertrey
Redskin in Canada wrote:
However, for what it is worth and the initial point of this thread: It is perfectly clear to all that these recent events are nothing but a bluff with the purpose to extract advantages at a negotiation table. The true important or even realistic issue is not whether military action might be taken but how those negotiations are conducted. And relating to that point, the strongest response should be: no food, no lifting of sanctions, no relief of any kind, no reward of any kind for criminal behaviour.

This response is stronger than anything else.


Frankly our government has already suggested that they are willing to talk... I have a problem with that... In fact, I have a problem with providing them ANY assistance... period. Their repetitive history of extortion, then reniging... must result, finally, in the same consequence suffered by the "boy who cried wolf". Never let a thug dictate the terms. Yet... we never learn. I have every confidence that this administration will appease, just as in the past... and it will come back, with an even higher cost, once the thug has a true nuclear arsenal.

At that point, it will be... woulda, coulda, shoulda... and the cost then will be truly severe. "uhhh... maybe we should have done something BEFORE they blew up Tokyo, and Honolulu... " It will come to that... as you note... this is NOT a stable leadership...

BTW... please stop suggesting that we are too ignorant to "understand"... we understand that there are complexities... there were similar considerations in 1938... how effective was appeasement of the madman then? Shouldn't we learn from history?