The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I know, I know.........It's gonna be a LONG & BORING Offseason. So I'm just trying to be creative with some discussion.

How would you rate ALL our QBs from #1 to #20...? This can be Objective and Subjective and may include: Stats, accomplishments, athletic ability, likeability...etc..COMBINED, just during their time with the Redskins. Let's not go overboard here.



NO...this is not scientific research

I'll try a stab at it:

1. Sonny Jurgensen
2. Sammy Baugh
3. Joe Theismann
4. RGIII
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Mark Rypien
7. Doug Williams
8. Mark Brunell
9. Norm Snead
10. Jason Campbell
11. Rex Grossman
12. Gus Frerotte
13. Patrick Ramsey
14. Trent Green
15. Donovan McNabb

BUT WHAT DO I KNOW..... come on Old Timers, chime in.

Wait, has this THREAD already been done before (if so, my bad)

1. Sonny Jurgensen
2. RGIII
3. Joe Theismann
4. Sammy Baugh
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Mark Rypien
7. Doug Williams
8. Brad Johnson
9. Trent Green
10. Norm Snead
11. Gus Frerotte
12. Todd Collins
13. Jason Campbell
14. Mark Brunnell
15. Rex Grossman
16. Patrick Ramsey
17. Donovan McNabb
18. Tony Banks
19. Danny Woeful
20. Heath Shuler

tribeofjudah wrote:I know, I know.........It's gonna be a LONG & BORING Offseason. So I'm just trying to be creative with some discussion.

How would you rate ALL our QBs from #1 to #20...? This can be Objective and Subjective and may include: Stats, accomplishments, athletic ability, likeability...etc..COMBINED.

NO...this is not scientific research

I'll try a stab at it:

1. Sonny Jurgensen
2. Sammy Baugh
3. Joe Theismann
4. RGIII
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Mark Rypien
7. Doug Williams
8. Mark Brunell
9. Norm Snead
10. Jason Campbell
11. Rex Grossman
12. Gus Frerotte
13. Patrick Ramsey
14. Trent Green
15. Donovan McNabb

BUT WHAT DO I KNOW..... come on Old Timers, chime in.

Wait, has this THREAD already been done before (if so, my bad)

Are you talking stats-wise strictly as a Redskin or are you talking their whole career? I don't mean strictly stats either....

For example: Rex took the Bears to the Super Bowl so do I take that into consideration and all of McNabb's stats and accomplishments with the Iggles...

^^^^ just during their time with the Redskins. Let's not go overboard here.

The Hogster wrote:1. Sonny Jurgensen
2. RGIII
3. Joe Theismann
4. Sammy Baugh
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Mark Rypien
7. Doug Williams
8. Brad Johnson
9. Trent Green
10. Norm Snead
11. Gus Frerotte
12. Todd Collins
13. Jason Campbell
14. Mark Brunnell
15. Rex Grossman
16. Patrick Ramsey
17. Donovan McNabb
18. Tony Banks
19. Danny Woeful
20. Heath Shuler

Looks like you got this down pat. RGIII at #2....I like but he's still has LOTS TO PROVE. No playoff game won and no SuperBowl

1: Sonny
2: Joe Theismann
3: RGIII
4: Sammy Baugh
5: Mark Rypien
6: Billy Kilmer
7: Doug Williams
8: Norm Snead
9: Brad Johnson
10: Mark Brunell(He would prolly be down further if not for that Cowboys game )
11: Trent Green
12: Gus Ferotte
13: Jason Campbell
14: Todd Collins
15: Rex Grossman
16: Patrick Ramsey
17: Donovan McNuggets
18: Tony Banks
19: Danny Wuerfell(spelling??)
20: Tim Hasselbeck
21: Congressman Shuler

tribeofjudah wrote:

The Hogster wrote:1. Sonny Jurgensen
2. RGIII
3. Joe Theismann
4. Sammy Baugh
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Mark Rypien
7. Doug Williams
8. Brad Johnson
9. Trent Green
10. Norm Snead
11. Gus Frerotte
12. Todd Collins
13. Jason Campbell
14. Mark Brunnell
15. Rex Grossman
16. Patrick Ramsey
17. Donovan McNabb
18. Tony Banks
19. Danny Woeful
20. Heath Shuler

Looks like you got this down pat. RGIII at #2....I like but he's still has LOTS TO PROVE. No playoff game won and no SuperBowl

Gotta go with RGIII just because he's shown that ability to be a perrenial Pro Bowler. He's a legend in the making. The game was so different back in the day, that it's hard for me to put a QB above him that threw for 1400 yards in a season.

The Hogster wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

The Hogster wrote:1. Sonny Jurgensen
2. RGIII
3. Joe Theismann
4. Sammy Baugh
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Mark Rypien
7. Doug Williams
8. Brad Johnson
9. Trent Green
10. Norm Snead
11. Gus Frerotte
12. Todd Collins
13. Jason Campbell
14. Mark Brunnell
15. Rex Grossman
16. Patrick Ramsey
17. Donovan McNabb
18. Tony Banks
19. Danny Woeful
20. Heath Shuler

Looks like you got this down pat. RGIII at #2....I like but he's still has LOTS TO PROVE. No playoff game won and no SuperBowl

Gotta go with RGIII just because he's shown that ability to be a perrenial Pro Bowler. He's a legend in the making. The game was so different back in the day, that it's hard for me to put a QB above him that threw for 1400 yards in a season.

Agreed....even though he hasn't won a playoff or Super Bowl yet; he led us to one of the most electrifying and most exciting season that I can remember in a long time. He led us to 7 victories in a row(except obviously the Browns game and the end of the Ratbirds) and got us IN the playoffs during his rookie year. Hopefully when it's all said and done he will be undoubtedly #1 on da list hands down.

- Slingin Sammy and Sonny at the top. Baugh was before my time, but he practically invented the forward pass, so he has an edge.

- Sonny was the best passer in modern football. A grade higher than his contemporaries Unitas, Starr, and Brodie. Of that era you you can imagine a league higher than the NFL, a league in which Jim Brown was the FB and Sonny the QB. They were that much better than anyone else.

- Eddie LeBaron has to be up there

- It's best to ignore the failures, like Shuler and Frerotte and Wuerffel: otherwise, you'd have to include George Izo, Harry Theofiledes, Ralph Guglielmi, Al Dorrow, Dick Shiner, Stan Humphries

- Jay Shroeder had a good season and a half. Strange story, that one, and the Redskins traded him for Jim Lachey...a great LT (who stopped the other LT)

- Griffin has more talent than anybody since Sonny.

Dick Shiner was a terrible QB for the Redskins? No wonder he bought the Giants and imposed those cap penalties...


Sorry, the offseason is getting to me already.

Sammy.

Sonny.

Done

Im sorry but I find it hard to put Sunny even in the top 3.. While he may be in the HOF and known as a great passer during his time I feel you have to also lead the team to the playoffs/ championships during your time to be considered among the best.. If you look at the bulk of his work as our undisputed starter 1964 through 1970 the Redskins had exactly 0 playoff appearances and he only had a couple seasons in which you could say his numbers were truly good.. therefor my top 5 goes in this order..

1 - Sammy Baugh ( set nearly every passing record in his day )
2- Joe Theismann
3- Mark Rypien
4- Doug Williams
5- Sonny/ Kilmer

everydayAskinsday wrote:Im sorry but I find it hard to put Sunny even in the top 3.. While he may be in the HOF and known as a great passer during his time I feel you have to also lead the team to the playoffs/ championships during your time to be considered among the best.. If you look at the bulk of his work as our undisputed starter 1964 through 1970 the Redskins had exactly 0 playoff appearances and he only had a couple seasons in which you could say his numbers were truly good.. therefor my top 5 goes in this order..

1 - Sammy Baugh ( set nearly every passing record in his day )
2- Joe Theismann
3- Mark Rypien
4- Doug Williams
5- Sonny/ Kilmer

Did you see Sonny play? We can remedy that. Otto "Toot" Graham believed that fans can to see passing, and he never bothered with defense or a running game. That's why the '60s Redskins typicall were a 7 - 9 team.

Sonny had perfect touch: no receiver got hung out to be hit; no receiver ever complained that Sonny threw too hard (a problem with Norm Sneed). Sonny was 2 for three throwing left-handed. He completed passes behind his back. He was the original quick-release QB.

Sonny called his own plays -- terrified George Allen -- but he mixed everything up. Defenses were always off balance. Lombardi came to the Redskins and mentioned that his Packers would never have lost a game with Sonny at QB.

Watch a little of Sonny at work in this:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-pre ... Sonny-play

Watch for number 42 (Charley Taylor) and 49 (Bobby Mitchell) and 87 (Jerry Smith).

Then watch this one, about the three great receiver: Mitchell, Taylor, and Borwn...who went 1, 2, and 4 in receptions one year. Watch Sonny throwing.

When defenders went more to the zone defense in the '70s, it just made Sonny more effective. He was always playing/thinking about 50% faster than everyone else, and he loved throwing against the zone. Allen has the team by then, and Allen's game strategy was to run Larry Brown thrre times and then punt deep into he opposition territory. Sonny made him nervous, which is why he retired Sonny after the '74 season.

During '74, Sonny led a late Q4 drive against the SB champion Dolphins, who knew that Sonny would pass but couldn't stop him.

Later that season, when Sonny was hobbling on a sore ankle, he took over when Billy Kilmer was injured, and the Redskins down by at least 13 points. The Giants new Sonny would pass...they blitz and dropped back into a zone. Sonny completed about 13 consecutive passes to give the Redskins the lead. Mike Bass sealed the win with an interception (off Doug Simms?).

Greatest thing about Sonny was that nothing bothered him. The Skins were down by 10 or 13 points to he Champion Cowboys in the first meeting in '72. Sonny walked into the huddle, called his play, hitched up his pants, and completed a pass to Larry Brown. Next play was a quick down and out for about 20 yards to Jerry Smith.

On he playoffs: Sonny snapped his achilles tendon in the first Giants game of '72. After SB 7, with two interceptions of Kilmer passes in the endzone, Don Shula told Sonny "It would have been a different game with yiu at QB."

Sonny was so much better than his contemporaries -- Unitas, Starr, and Brodie -- the he belonged in a different league. Sonny and Jim Brown we a whole grade above he rest of he NFL.

everydayAskinsday wrote:Im sorry but I find it hard to put Sunny even in the top 3.. While he may be in the HOF and known as a great passer during his time I feel you have to also lead the team to the playoffs/ championships during your time to be considered among the best.. If you look at the bulk of his work as our undisputed starter 1964 through 1970 the Redskins had exactly 0 playoff appearances and he only had a couple seasons in which you could say his numbers were truly good.. therefor my top 5 goes in this order..

1 - Sammy Baugh ( set nearly every passing record in his day )
2- Joe Theismann
3- Mark Rypien
4- Doug Williams
5- Sonny/ Kilmer

Did you see Sonny play? We can remedy that. Otto "Toot" Graham believed that fans can to see passing, and he never bothered with defense or a running game. That's why the '60s Redskins typicall were a 7 - 9 team.

Sonny had perfect touch: no receiver got hung out to be hit; no receiver ever complained that Sonny threw too hard (a problem with Norm Sneed). Sonny was 2 for three throwing left-handed. He completed passes behind his back. He was the original quick-release QB.

Sonny called his own plays -- terrified George Allen -- but he mixed everything up. Defenses were always off balance. Lombardi came to the Redskins and mentioned that his Packers would never have lost a game with Sonny at QB.

Watch a little of Sonny at work in this:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-pre ... Sonny-play

Watch for number 42 (Charley Taylor) and 49 (Bobby Mitchell) and 87 (Jerry Smith).

Then watch this one, about the three great receiver: Mitchell, Taylor, and Borwn...who went 1, 2, and 4 in receptions one year. Watch Sonny throwing.

When defenders went more to the zone defense in the '70s, it just made Sonny more effective. He was always playing/thinking about 50% faster than everyone else, and he loved throwing against the zone. Allen has the team by then, and Allen's game strategy was to run Larry Brown thrre times and then punt deep into he opposition territory. Sonny made him nervous, which is why he retired Sonny after the '74 season.

During '74, Sonny led a late Q4 drive against the SB champion Dolphins, who knew that Sonny would pass but couldn't stop him.

Later that season, when Sonny was hobbling on a sore ankle, he took over when Billy Kilmer was injured, and the Redskins down by at least 13 points. The Giants new Sonny would pass...they blitz and dropped back into a zone. Sonny completed about 13 consecutive passes to give the Redskins the lead. Mike Bass sealed the win with an interception (off Doug Simms?).

Greatest thing about Sonny was that nothing bothered him. The Skins were down by 10 or 13 points to the Champion Cowboys in the first meeting in '72. Sonny walked into the huddle, called his play, hitched up his pants, and completed a pass to Larry Brown. Next play was a quick down and out for about 20 yards to Jerry Smith.

On he playoffs: Sonny snapped his achilles tendon in the first Giants game of '72. After SB 7, with two interceptions of Kilmer passes in the endzone, Don Shula told Sonny "It would have been a different game with you at QB."

Sonny was so much better than his contemporaries -- Unitas, Starr, and Brodie -- the he belonged in a different league. Sonny and Jim Brown we a whole grade above he rest of he NFL.

@Welch

Im not saying Sonny wasn't a great passer in his day and I am sure he was highly regarded among his peers but the question was to rate the top 20 Redskins QB's in our own opinion (I personally choose to go only as high as 5) and for me I think that playoff appearances and Super Bowls are important.. I am not trying to bash Sonny I just cant put him ahead of the guys who brought home championships but that is just my ... I can see that you feel strongly for Sonny to be considered the best so we will just have to agree to disagree

You have to have a defense in order to get to the playoffs.

Sam

Sonny.

Done.

Labaron get honorable mention.

Theisman is NOT in the conversation. He and Ryp, were the product of the mind of Gibbs.

Off the top of my head:

1. Sammy Baugh
2. Sonny Jurgensen
3. Joe Theismann
4. Mark Rypien
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Norm Snead
7. Doug Williams
8. Jay Schroeder
9. Mark Brunell
10. Brad Johnson
11. Robert Griffin III
12. Gus Frerotte
13. Eddie Lebaron
14. Todd Collins
15. Trent Green
16. Jason Campbell
17. Patrick Ramsey
18. Tony Banks
19. Kirk Cousins
20. Donovan McNabb

Griffin should NOT be in the top ten...not just yet anyway. There's no doubt he will be there eventually.

Countertrey wrote:You have to have a defense in order to get to the playoffs.

Sam

Sonny.

Done.

Labaron get honorable mention.

Theisman is NOT in the conversation. He and Ryp, were the product of the mind of Gibbs.

not to go off into a whole other debate but a great QB can overcome a poor defense.. look at the Patriots for instance, they have had Defenses routinely ranked in the bottom if not last in the league and they practically make the Super Bowl each year and are a playoff team because of Brady. The Redskins made the playoffs just this past year with a very suspect D but Great QB

but my point was that IMO I think playoffs/ Superbowls are important hence the reason I ranked Sonny lower than all you.

Personally, I only think there are 5 (well 6) worth mentioning at this point:

1. Sammy Baugh
2. Joe Theismann
3. Sonny
4. Mark Rypien
5 (Tie). Kilmer & Williams

Personally, I give greater weight when a QB wins a SB. That's why #7 is above Sonny and #17 (as someone that only played 12 games as a skin) is even on the list.

I was tempted to put Mark Rypien above Sonny --- since he was the QB of arguably our greatest offensive season in history and had the best QB season in a SB year. However, Sonny was just too consistent and here for so long. It also doesn't hurt that he is still a huge part of the franchise even today as an announcer.

Kilmer was a solid QB, but not one of those "all time greats" that you talk about. Williams had an incredible SB run, but couldn't follow it up.

All in all, those are really the only skins QBs worth mentioning at this point (at least on an "all time" list). RGIII has the potential to top this list, but he needs to win a COUPLE SBs to do so.

Sammy - only QB to win multiple titles - next best athlete to RG3
Sonny
Joey T
Rypien
RG3
LeBaron
Kilmer
Brunel
Frerotte
Williams

Won't go any further, too sad!

StorminMormon86 wrote:Off the top of my head:

1. Sammy Baugh
2. Sonny Jurgensen
3. Joe Theismann
4. Mark Rypien
5. Billy Kilmer
6. Norm Snead
7. Doug Williams
8. Jay Schroeder
9. Mark Brunell
10. Brad Johnson
11. Robert Griffin III
12. Gus Frerotte
13. Eddie Lebaron
14. Todd Collins
15. Trent Green
16. Jason Campbell
17. Patrick Ramsey
18. Tony Banks
19. Kirk Cousins
20. Donovan McNabb

Griffin should NOT be in the top ten...not just yet anyway. There's no doubt he will be there eventually.

I understand your logic based on his experience level. But, Mark Brunnell? Jay Schroeder? Even with more experience, they had less than stellar careers with the Redskins. Unless you're going off of body of work.

Gus will be the greatest Redskin QB EVER!!!.. He was so good that THN gave him his own Emoticon --->

The Hogster wrote:I understand your logic based on his experience level. But, Mark Brunnell? Jay Schroeder? Even with more experience, they had less than stellar careers with the Redskins. Unless you're going off of body of work.

Mark Brunell helped orchestrate one of the best comeback games in recent history...and it was against the cowpukes. He also led the team to a playoff victory, the last qb on this team to do so. Schroeder led the team back in 86 to a 12-4 record, then won the majority of the games for us next year which led us to a Superbowl victory.

Mark Brunell helped orchestrate one of the best comeback games in recent history...and it was against the cowpukes.

This is true. I was a witness. But, keep in mind, in order to have a great comeback, you have to first be losing! Don't get me wrong, that was a great comeback win. But, we were inept on offense for all 56 minutes of that game--much like we were all year.

He also led the team to a playoff victory, the last qb on this team to do so.

A win is a win. But, to my last point, that win against Tampa Bay set an NFL record for futility. We were the only team in history to win a game with such a low total of yards. The Redskins only gained 120 total yards that game. But, those were the days when Gregg Williams was dialing up Top 5 defenses year in and out.

Schroeder led the team back in 86 to a 12-4 record, then won the majority of the games for us next year which led us to a Superbowl victory.

I'll give you this one without much argument. This was a better year than RGIII had, but I simply gave RGIII a bump because I weighed their ability in addition to the stats. If it were a ranking of the best seasons by a QB, I'd go with this one over RGIII. But, when ranking the best QB, I'll put RGIII ahead of him.

I didn't want to put Griffin in the top ten just yet, but from what he's shown this year it will only be a matter of time before he is.