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Kyle Shanahan
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:44 pm
by Kilmer72
Pretty cool article showing that Kyle is confusing defenses.
http://www.csnwashington.com/football-w ... s-confused
On the sideline, the Vikings’ Jared Allen discussed making an adjustment. “If we get that [three-back] look in the backfield again, I’m going straight pass. Every time they’re doing play action . . . I’m going straight up the field.”
But the Redskins anticipated the Vikings’ adjustment. They ran on 10 of their next 12 plays. When they ran out of the three-back alignment Allen did go straight up the field a couple of times and the Redskins ran past him or away from him.
For those that think he sucks; maybe Kyle isn't so bad after all.
Re: Kyle Shanahan
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:59 pm
by 1niksder
Kilmer72 wrote:Pretty cool article showing that Kyle is confusing defenses.
http://www.csnwashington.com/football-w ... s-confusedOn the sideline, the Vikings’ Jared Allen discussed making an adjustment. “If we get that [three-back] look in the backfield again, I’m going straight pass. Every time they’re doing play action . . . I’m going straight up the field.”
But the Redskins anticipated the Vikings’ adjustment. They ran on 10 of their next 12 plays. When they ran out of the three-back alignment Allen did go straight up the field a couple of times and the Redskins ran past him or away from him.
For those that think he sucks; maybe Kyle isn't so bad after all.
You can see Allen say this on NFL Turning Point, Williams was just lost (and said so)... Allen had the wrong plan but he had a plan.
Re: Kyle Shanahan
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:31 pm
by Kilmer72
Nice video clip. Personally I think we have been moving the ball since Kyle has been here. We could not get that monkey off our backs (scoring in red zone) and we couldn't find a way to win. Now that we have upgraded our receivers and running backs (Morris) things look brighter, and QB of course. Kyle has been slammed again and again. It was always there but we didn't have the players. He might get a little respect now but I would guess they will say it is all Robert instead.
Re: Kyle Shanahan
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:32 pm
by Countertrey
Kilmer72 wrote:Nice video clip. Personally I think we have been moving the ball since Kyle has been here. We could not get that monkey off our backs (scoring in red zone) and we couldn't find a way to win. Now that we have upgraded our receivers and running backs (Morris) things look brighter, and QB of course. Kyle has been slammed again and again. It was always there but we didn't have the players. He might get a little respect now but I would guess they will say it is all Robert instead.
It would not be wrong... many of these are live reads... frequently, RGIII and Morris don't know if it's run or pass until Bob decides whether to stick the ball in Morris' gut or pull it out and extend... either to pass or keep it himself... It's a very rare talent who can pull this off consistently, as it requires not only the physical tools and skills, but the football intelligence to read what the defense is doing instantly... Kyle has designed the plays... but they don't work without Bob... I can't imagine trying to defend this stuff... Stay home... you're wrong. Go upfield... you're wrong. Blitz a corner and an extra LB... you're wrong. Stack the box... you're wrong...
Just gotta love it.
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 pm
by RayNAustin
I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:23 pm
by ACW
Amazing what a QB can do
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:10 pm
by tribeofjudah
RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:02 am
by rskin72
tribeofjudah wrote:RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
Yea, well where did that system get us last season with the other rgiii? We are now arguing which comes first, the smart coach or the gifted qb......same questions as asked about walsh and montana, belichik and brady, shanny and elway....on and on. Think the correct answer is u need both smart coaches, and talented/motivated players, to consistently win in the nfl.
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:47 am
by SkinsJock
Kyle needs to prepare and call plays that suit the players he has
RG3 is going to make the coaches and players around him look really good
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:04 am
by chiefhog44
rskin72 wrote:tribeofjudah wrote:RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
Yea, well where did that system get us last season with the other rgiii? We are now arguing which comes first, the smart coach or the gifted qb......same questions as asked about walsh and montana, belichik and brady, shanny and elway....on and on. Think the correct answer is u need both smart coaches, and talented/motivated players, to consistently win in the nfl.
Please, the system won super bowls with the broncos, the system now has the Texans sitting atop the NFL. The system was run here with an immobile turnover machine last year. Now the East Coast Offense has evolved from this. The Shannahan created a whole new offense based on this kids skills. As I've said in the past...you need a top level QB and a top level coach to win in this league. Now we have both
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:19 am
by riggofan
chiefhog44 wrote:rskin72 wrote:tribeofjudah wrote:RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
Yea, well where did that system get us last season with the other rgiii? We are now arguing which comes first, the smart coach or the gifted qb......same questions as asked about walsh and montana, belichik and brady, shanny and elway....on and on. Think the correct answer is u need both smart coaches, and talented/motivated players, to consistently win in the nfl.
Please, the system won super bowls with the broncos, the system now has the Texans sitting atop the NFL. The system was run here with an immobile turnover machine last year. Now the East Coast Offense has evolved from this. The Shannahan created a whole new offense based on this kids skills. As I've said in the past...you need a top level QB and a top level coach to win in this league. Now we have both
Well said.
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:53 am
by SkinsJock
I don't think that Kyle or Jim 'suck' as co-ordinators - actually they're not doing a bad job, all things considered ...
we just need great play calling on both sides of the ball, against this team, this week ...
AND
EVERY week
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:18 pm
by RayNAustin
chiefhog44 wrote:rskin72 wrote:tribeofjudah wrote:RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
Yea, well where did that system get us last season with the other rgiii? We are now arguing which comes first, the smart coach or the gifted qb......same questions as asked about walsh and montana, belichik and brady, shanny and elway....on and on. Think the correct answer is u need both smart coaches, and talented/motivated players, to consistently win in the nfl.
Please, the system won super bowls with the broncos, the system now has the Texans sitting atop the NFL. The system was run here with an immobile turnover machine last year. Now the East Coast Offense has evolved from this. The Shannahan created a whole new offense based on this kids skills. As I've said in the past...you need a top level QB and a top level coach to win in this league. Now we have both
Mike Shanahan's last Super Bowl was in 1998 ... that's a long time ago. And since then, his record is 105 and 98, just 7 games above 500 over 14 years. That is not "greatness" ... that is post Elway perpetual mediocrity, which includes a couple of pretty decent QBs in Jake the Snake and Cutler.
What's even more disturbing is Shanahan has had 1 winning season in the last 6 years since 2005, and is 14-24 to date with the Skins. That is dismally horrific.
If one should be totally honest in the assessment of the last 6 games, and the sensational production that RG3 has contributed from his own skill and play making ability, which includes monster runs, red zone proficiency, throwing accuracy and a remarkable level of football intelligence, plus leadership skills that no one could actually expect from a rookie QB, that is by any reasonable calculation the ONLY reason we're sitting at 3-3 right now .... instead of 1-5 or 0-6 had Sexy Rexy been handling the rock.
Honestly, I can find not a trace of greatness from these results we've seen from this coaching staff in it's third season. Our defense is worse than it's been for several years ... and until this sensational kid arrived, Kyle's offense needed a seeing eye dog to find the endzone, using three different QBs in the span of 2 seasons.
Hey, it's all good to be a homer .. and optimism is a good thing when you have solid reasons for it ... but think about it ... without RG3, this team would likely be 0-6 right now, and people would be debating which tree at Redskin Park should be used to hang Kyle, Mike and Has., and wondering, as we enter the tough stretch of the schedule, where we're going to find 2 or 3 wins and escape being the 0-16 detroit lions.
Look, it doesn't require genius to teach a kid how to swim when he comes in almost walking on water, but it does require an extreme level of delusion to attribute greatness to a guy who calls a pitchout on a critical third and 1 with the game in the balance ... particularly given the well demonstrated ability of the RB to grind out hard yards inside.
Of course that's just one example, but the point I'm making here, or at least it is my contention that RG3 would make any offense function, because some of his best production has come when his helmet speaker has gone on the blink, or he's manufacturing TD's with his legs.
Personally, I don't think the offense is actually utilizing the proper balance RG3's skills brings to the table ... with just 5 TD passes over 6 games from a kid with a great arm and accuracy, tells me that the offense is relying far too much on his legs, and too little on his arm.
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:13 pm
by chiefhog44
RayNAustin wrote:chiefhog44 wrote:rskin72 wrote:tribeofjudah wrote:RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
Yea, well where did that system get us last season with the other rgiii? We are now arguing which comes first, the smart coach or the gifted qb......same questions as asked about walsh and montana, belichik and brady, shanny and elway....on and on. Think the correct answer is u need both smart coaches, and talented/motivated players, to consistently win in the nfl.
Please, the system won super bowls with the broncos, the system now has the Texans sitting atop the NFL. The system was run here with an immobile turnover machine last year. Now the East Coast Offense has evolved from this. The Shannahan created a whole new offense based on this kids skills. As I've said in the past...you need a top level QB and a top level coach to win in this league. Now we have both
Mike Shanahan's last Super Bowl was in 1998 ... that's a long time ago. And since then, his record is 105 and 98, just 7 games above 500 over 14 years. That is not "greatness" ... that is post Elway perpetual mediocrity, which includes a couple of pretty decent QBs in Jake the Snake and Cutler.
What's even more disturbing is Shanahan has had 1 winning season in the last 6 years since 2005, and is 14-24 to date with the Skins. That is dismally horrific.
If one should be totally honest in the assessment of the last 6 games, and the sensational production that RG3 has contributed from his own skill and play making ability, which includes monster runs, red zone proficiency, throwing accuracy and a remarkable level of football intelligence, plus leadership skills that no one could actually expect from a rookie QB, that is by any reasonable calculation the ONLY reason we're sitting at 3-3 right now .... instead of 1-5 or 0-6 had Sexy Rexy been handling the rock.
Honestly, I can find not a trace of greatness from these results we've seen from this coaching staff in it's third season. Our defense is worse than it's been for several years ... and until this sensational kid arrived, Kyle's offense needed a seeing eye dog to find the endzone, using three different QBs in the span of 2 seasons.
Hey, it's all good to be a homer .. and optimism is a good thing when you have solid reasons for it ... but think about it ... without RG3, this team would likely be 0-6 right now, and people would be debating which tree at Redskin Park should be used to hang Kyle, Mike and Has., and wondering, as we enter the tough stretch of the schedule, where we're going to find 2 or 3 wins and escape being the 0-16 detroit lions.
Look, it doesn't require genius to teach a kid how to swim when he comes in almost walking on water, but it does require an extreme level of delusion to attribute greatness to a guy who calls a pitchout on a critical third and 1 with the game in the balance ... particularly given the well demonstrated ability of the RB to grind out hard yards inside.
Of course that's just one example, but the point I'm making here, or at least it is my contention that RG3 would make any offense function, because some of his best production has come when his helmet speaker has gone on the blink, or he's manufacturing TD's with his legs.
Personally, I don't think the offense is actually utilizing the proper balance RG3's skills brings to the table ... with just 5 TD passes over 6 games from a kid with a great arm and accuracy, tells me that the offense is relying far too much on his legs, and too little on his arm.
Got it. RG3 is probably the factor behind the Texans being on top as well
. My point is that the system is successful, whether it's now with the Texans or 20 years ago with the Broncos. I believe you said the system was not successful, and you are wrong. Dead wrong, but we'll never hear that from you, will we Ray?
Ray, I agree that over time he would make any offense work, but there are a lot of OC's that may not use him correctly...meaning many would not take the chance and stick him in a non-conventional offense. What I think these coaches have done, is to think outside the box and build an offense catered to his talents. I just dont think he would have reached his potential with very many NFL coaches. Successful in other offenses, yes, full potential, I just don't see it, and if you can't give them credit for that, I think you're off, but as I always say, what do I know.
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:05 pm
by Kilmer72
Thanks chiefhog44. Ray is very insightful. He has a hatred towards the Shans and I understand it. Hell, I didn't want Mike I wanted Gruden to tell you the truth.
Mike is doing ok though. The thing that got Mike in trouble was his desire to keep his Def coach in Denver. Just like it may be his downfall here. Haslett does ok but he can't make second half adjustments. Kyle gets a bad rap because he is his dads son. From what I have seen, Kyle has always been moving the ball way better than previous coaches. The whole thread is supposed to be about giving Kyle some credit. Most will say as I predicted, that it is all Robert. I understand that Robert is the key, but look how even last year we lost thanks to TO but still managed yards. We were moving the ball. Those that call him 3 and out don't get it. It was Rex's interceptions and fumbles that did us in. Other wise he was ok and moving the ball. Most of that credit should fall on Kyle and I am talking about the good. He can't throw it or catch it.
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:16 pm
by Irn-Bru
The hand wringing over Shanahan's success or alleged lack of success since Elway is ridiculous. I'd like to see a list of bad head coaches without a very good quarterback who could go 11-5, 8-8, 9-7, 10-6, 10-6, and 13-3, and 9-7 in a seven year stretch. Please provide such a list, Ray.
And while you're at it, please explain how that counts as "perpetual mediocrity." I'm all ears.
Or are we supposed to believe he "didn't win anything" just because he didn't win a Super Bowl? I guess getting to the playoffs or conference championship isn't good enough? You probably think the Ravens have been a mediocre team these past 10 years, too, I suppose.
I know context won't make a dent in the skull of this boneheaded argument, and I know it won't be going away any time soon. But I'll never cease to be amazed that otherwise intelligent fans can buy this garbage.
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:44 pm
by Countertrey
tribeofjudah wrote:RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
I get that... but... the thing is, it's a job which apparently only one man in football is qualified for... and his name is Bob.
No Bob... no system... at least, not this one...
Without RGIII, we would be doing things very differently... and, much more conventionally...
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:44 pm
by Countertrey
tribeofjudah wrote:RayNAustin wrote:I'd give the lion's share of the credit to "Bob" and the rest to Alfred .... Kyle would be 0-6 right now, without Bob & Alfred
It's a SYSTEM dawg........ everyone: do your job
I get that... but... the thing is, it's a job which apparently only one man in football is qualified for... and his name is Bob.
No Bob... no system... at least, not this one...
Without RGIII, we would be doing things very differently... and, much more conventionally...
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:24 pm
by The Hogster
Shanahan is a good coach. The only knock on him by a few players was that they didn't always trust him. But, I think his record speaks for itself. Aside from the Great Joe Gibbs, there are not many Championship coaches who won multilple rings without a franchise QB. The Elway knock is ridiculous. Don't people remember the many Superbowls Elway lost before Shanahan? Including one to the Skins??!
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:27 pm
by Kilmer72
The Hogster wrote:Shanahan is a good coach. The only knock on him by a few players was that they didn't always trust him. But, I think his record speaks for itself. Aside from the Great Joe Gibbs, there are not many Championship coaches who won multilple rings without a franchise QB. The Elway knock is ridiculous. Don't people remember the many Superbowls Elway lost before Shanahan? Including one to the Skins??!
I remember Hogster. I also remember wining 3 super bowls with 3 different QBs.... I am elated to have Robert. I have been a fan since 1974 but remember 1972 barely. QB is important today but not yesterday. Look at the 9ners today.
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:29 am
by RayNAustin
Irn-Bru wrote:The hand wringing over Shanahan's success or alleged lack of success since Elway is ridiculous. I'd like to see a list of bad head coaches without a very good quarterback who could go 11-5, 8-8, 9-7, 10-6, 10-6, and 13-3, and 9-7 in a seven year stretch. Please provide such a list, Ray.
Really? So, you're saying that after Elway, Cutler, Plummer, and Griese, who, by the way, all three made the pro bowl as Broncos QBs were just not good? Methinks you're being very picky about what constitutes a good QB, and I think the pro bowl qualifies as good.
So, the better question would be for you to give me a list of great coaches with a worse record, while having 3 different QB's make the pro bowl.
Irn-Bru wrote:And while you're at it, please explain how that counts as "perpetual mediocrity." I'm all ears.
Or are we supposed to believe he "didn't win anything" just because he didn't win a Super Bowl? I guess getting to the playoffs or conference championship isn't good enough? You probably think the Ravens have been a mediocre team these past 10 years, too, I suppose.
Well, what did he win? I'll tell you ... he won 1 playoff game in 12 years after Elway. ONE. He won his division TWICE in 12 years. After Elway, it took him 7 years before wining his division again. 7 years!!!
You take away Elway and the two Super Bowls, and what does Shanahan really have to hang a hat on? Not very much.
(By the way ... Andy Reid, in the same time period won 7 division titles, and won 10 playoff games with the same QB Mike benched in favor of Rex Grossman. Just sayin'
Irn-Bru wrote:I know context won't make a dent in the skull of this boneheaded argument, and I know it won't be going away any time soon. But I'll never cease to be amazed that otherwise intelligent fans can buy this garbage.
Well you ain't gonna make much of a dent with a pillow full of chicken feathers as a hammer.
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:58 am
by RayNAustin
The Hogster wrote:Shanahan is a good coach. The only knock on him by a few players was that they didn't always trust him. But, I think his record speaks for itself. Aside from the Great Joe Gibbs, there are not many Championship coaches who won multilple rings without a franchise QB. The Elway knock is ridiculous. Don't people remember the many Superbowls Elway lost before Shanahan? Including one to the Skins??!
Now this is a new Orwellian twist on history ... now you want to make the insinuation that it was Shanahan who made Elway successful and not the other way round ? Jesus. It's getting deep in here.
Aside from the fact that after Elway retired, the following year, Shanahan's Broncos went 6-10 ... and aside from the fact that it would take 7 years before he won another division title or a playoff game .... none of which I find overly remarkable, the NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" kinda place ... and lately ... as in the last 5 seasons .... 3 with Denver and the past 2 with Washington .... Shanny is 10 games below 500, which unfortunately all occurred here (he was 500 during his final 3 seasons in Denver). So he's been riding a reputation that is very old now.
That's not great ... it's not good ... and it isn't even mediocre ... it's actually horrible. To put things into perspective, the Redskins would have to win the next 10 straight games just for Shanny to reach 500 in his three seasons here ... which would match his 500 record with Denver over his last three seasons there. Do you think we're going to finish 13-3?
Now I'm not saying that Shanahan can't win here ... I'm saying that with RG3, if he doesn't win, he'll have run out of excuses, and he won't be coasting much longer on that old reputation.
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:33 pm
by Irn-Bru
As I suspected. No list of coaches, and no explanation of how that record could be seen as mediocre.
RayNAustin wrote:Really? So, you're saying that after Elway, Cutler, Plummer, and Griese, who, by the way, all three made the pro bowl as Broncos QBs were just not good?
They were good. They were not very good. Plummer in particular, with whom Shanahan had the most time, was only decent and only had one Pro Bowl worthy season — and even then only made it as part of a ridiculously deep bench of alternates (one-quarter of the conference's quarterbacks were ahead of him).
I was careful with my words. These players were solid starters, good, but he never had a very good QB, and in this league it takes a very good QB to win consistently unless your name is Joe Gibbs or one of a handful of other legendary coaches.
Well, what did he win? I'll tell you ... he won 1 playoff game in 12 years after Elway. ONE. He won his division TWICE in 12 years. After Elway, it took him 7 years before wining his division again. 7 years!!!
Exclamation points may make you sound more hysterical, but they do not bolster your argument. The record I quoted above is not something you will see a mediocre coach produce. Belichick couldn't have won much more with the QBs Shanahan had.
You take away Elway and the two Super Bowls, and what does Shanahan really have to hang a hat on? Not very much.
The old "if you take away . . ." argument.
Not just the most overused, but the most badly used in all football discussions.
(By the way ... Andy Reid, in the same time period won 7 division titles, and won 10 playoff games with the same QB Mike benched in favor of Rex Grossman.
Definitely
not the same QB.
And did you just say McNabb was not a very good quarterback in his time at Philly?
I dislike the guy as much as anyone, but come on, let's be real.
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:38 pm
by Irn-Bru
RayNAustin wrote:That's not great ... it's not good ... and it isn't even mediocre ... it's actually horrible.
You have become a parody of yourself. Shanahan's Broncos after Elway:
Code: Select all
2008 NFL Denver Broncos 8 8
2007 NFL Denver Broncos 7 9
2006 NFL Denver Broncos 9 7
2005 NFL Denver Broncos 13 3
2004 NFL Denver Broncos 10 6
2003 NFL Denver Broncos 10 6
2002 NFL Denver Broncos 9 7
2001 NFL Denver Broncos 8 8
2000 NFL Denver Broncos 11 5
1999 NFL Denver Broncos 6 10
Don't believe what your eyes tell you, Redskins fans. It might look like a 76% winning record, but in fact that's actually a "horrible" record as coach. Putrid. Unacceptable. And clear evidence that Shanahan without Elway couldn't win "anything."
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:00 pm
by The Hogster
Irn-Bru wrote:RayNAustin wrote:That's not great ... it's not good ... and it isn't even mediocre ... it's actually horrible.
You have become a parody of yourself. Shanahan's Broncos after Elway:
Code: Select all
2008 NFL Denver Broncos 8 8
2007 NFL Denver Broncos 7 9
2006 NFL Denver Broncos 9 7
2005 NFL Denver Broncos 13 3
2004 NFL Denver Broncos 10 6
2003 NFL Denver Broncos 10 6
2002 NFL Denver Broncos 9 7
2001 NFL Denver Broncos 8 8
2000 NFL Denver Broncos 11 5
1999 NFL Denver Broncos 6 10
Don't believe what your eyes tell you, Redskins fans. It might look like a 76% winning record, but in fact that's actually a "horrible" record as coach. Putrid. Unacceptable. And clear evidence that Shanahan without Elway couldn't win "anything."
+1
There you go bringing up facts again!