The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

In the second half of yesterday's game the Redskins ran the triple option out of the Pistol formation from their second possession until they went no huddle in the fourth quarter. They lined up RGIII, Morris and Banks - that's the slowest running back on the roster teamed with two of the fastest guys in the NFL.

The Redskins basically ran this scheme and went from 14 down to a tie game.

There isn't a coach in the NFL that hasn't seen the triple option, but not many have seen it run out of the pistol formation and I'm pretty sure even less have seen it since joining the NFL. Marvin Lewis is know as a defensive guy and he couldn't adjust to it until the game was tied.

The Redskins have the players and the speed to make it a part of their offense but there is a reason it isn't run in the NFL... it comes with a high rate of turnovers, and the QB will be hit on almost every play weather he has the ball or not.

As we all saw yesterday RGIII and Banks in the same backfield causes defenses headaches.

Here's my question.

Should the Redskins use this part of the playbook like Rex Ryan said was the reason for trading for Tebow (he forces defensive coordinators to prepare for the possibility he may play)? Meaning they show it every now and then, not as part of playing catch up or as the many formation and scheme.

I like it. If they're going to take the QB out every time, gives us a first down every time we use it. So how about run it on VERY important posessions

chiefhog44 wrote:I like it. If they're going to take the QB out every time, gives us a first down every time we use it. So how about run it on VERY important posessions

In the triple option the QB is treated like a runner and loses all the protections that a QB would normally have under league rules.

1niksder wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:I like it. If they're going to take the QB out every time, gives us a first down every time we use it. So how about run it on VERY important posessions

In the triple option the QB is treated like a runner and loses all the protections that a QB would normally have under league rules.

I know. If the RG knows they're going to take him out each play, makes for an easy read to pitch it to Banks for a 1st down. If the CB comes upto make the play before Banks crosses the LOS, Banks pulls up for the pass. Either way, makes for an easy 1st down

chiefhog44 wrote:

1niksder wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:I like it. If they're going to take the QB out every time, gives us a first down every time we use it. So how about run it on VERY important posessions

In the triple option the QB is treated like a runner and loses all the protections that a QB would normally have under league rules.

I know. If the RG knows they're going to take him out each play, makes for an easy read to pitch it to Banks for a 1st down. If the CB comes upto make the play before Banks crosses the LOS, Banks pulls up for the pass. Either way, makes for an easy 1st down

Work for the whole 3rd qtr yesterday...

If it works, you have to use it --- especially with our OL. I would, however, like to see some passing plays come out of it so we can keep defenses honest.

I don't like how it takes it toll on RGIII, though, so you have to limit it. I don't want the hits RGIII takes this year to result in an injury riddled career (sort of like Vick) -- so we need to limit it.

Maybe we could use Rex and then we don't care what happens ..... just kidding

well, just a little

SkinsJock wrote:Maybe we could use Rex and then we don't care what happens ..... just kidding

well, just a little

Keep using it, and Rex will be our starting QB by mid-season, which is why it cannot be the crutch it was relied on Sunday.

We ran it WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to often. A few plays per game, tops.

We had too much trickeration in general. Tricks take time and our pass pro is not good enough. When RGIII started the 2nd half just dropping back and firing he looked terrific.

DarthMonk

Maybe the team can develop a serious offensive game plan with a reliable OL which can make us NFL worthy and not only NCAA worthy.

We are playing like a University team in the NFL. You will fool a few some of the time but you will not fool everyone all of the time.

RGIII is our strongest asset. If he gets hurt we are down and out. Just run it a couple of selected times and play like an NFL team the rest of the game.

Redskin in Canada wrote: RGIII is our strongest asset. If he gets hurt we are down and out.

I was just thinking... maybe Kyle Shanahan with a Franchise Quarterback is like Vince Young with a mutimilliondollar rookie contract...

markshark84 wrote:If it works, you have to use it --- especially with our OL. I would, however, like to see some passing plays come out of it so we can keep defenses honest.

I don't like how it takes it toll on RGIII, though, so you have to limit it. I don't want the hits RGIII takes this year to result in an injury riddled career (sort of like Vick) -- so we need to limit it.

No. It's fine to keep all plays available for situational use to keep defenses game planning for everything and keep them guessing. But that triple option leaves your QB open to huge hits, and should not become a staple of your offense like it was used Sunday.

Show it, and then run similar formations that will cause LBs and Safeties to key on that movement, and pull up and hit crossing patterns run to those vacated areas .. run reverses, etc. But do not keep exposing RG3 to free shots from charging linebackers ... and a big double no to having him run by design 10 times per game, like he's averaging now.

The Redskin coaches are so mishandling the situation ... the big deal about RG3 right from the get go was that he had the ability to run, but was a pass first QB with a strong arm and excellent accuracy, and not a run first Michael Vick type .... so what do they do? They want to make him into a Michael Vick type run first QB. It's craziness, and crazy is not a sound strategy.

If there are pass pro problems, keep a blocking TE and keep the RB in to help protect. RG3 can escape a pass rush and extend plays easily ... just slow down the rush. If the o-line cannot even put up minimal resistance, then we need to fire the guys that put them out there, and not sacrifice our franchise superstar QB to mask their incompetence.

I know it can work a few times. However I dont like that we are putting our QB in harms way. Yes he plays in the NFL but we are putting him more at risk then a normal QB. RG3 goes down and we bearly stand a shot a winning a game. As it stands RG3 is whats keeping us in games.

While it looks good at times I say get rid of it.

More of the spread shotgun single back formations run at no huddle pace. RG3 has proven in his college career that he can run a no huddle spread formation. So why not use more of that?

Why I like a spread formation vs a triple option? Well with the spread you make the defense play more honest or get burnt. They have to decide whether to play enough coverage leaving RG3 to run free. They may opt to have a spy on RG3 but that will leave one receiver free to roam or one on one situations.

Either way when Garcon gets back the offense will be that much more potent. Anyways our offense is not the problem in the first place. Moving on!

Stop using it. The play / formation causes RG3 to be hit too often.

This play is fine for high school and college, where often one team so far out-classes the other that there is no struggle, and where the QB is not as important.

If Shanahan wants to use it, then sign a big, hard-running option QB who doesn't throw much. Paul Hornung was a QB like that, and so was Brian Mitchell. Given college football today, there are plenty of option QB's. Use them (up).

Otherwise, save RG3 until the Redskins have a good enough line that they can play an NFL offense. This is a crazy play.

For me its the 2nd option.. use enough that teams will be on notice.

RayNAustin wrote:

markshark84 wrote:If it works, you have to use it --- especially with our OL. I would, however, like to see some passing plays come out of it so we can keep defenses honest.

I don't like how it takes it toll on RGIII, though, so you have to limit it. I don't want the hits RGIII takes this year to result in an injury riddled career (sort of like Vick) -- so we need to limit it.

No. It's fine to keep all plays available for situational use to keep defenses game planning for everything and keep them guessing. But that triple option leaves your QB open to huge hits, and should not become a staple of your offense like it was used Sunday.

Show it, and then run similar formations that will cause LBs and Safeties to key on that movement, and pull up and hit crossing patterns run to those vacated areas .. run reverses, etc. But do not keep exposing RG3 to free shots from charging linebackers ... and a big double no to having him run by design 10 times per game, like he's averaging now.

The Redskin coaches are so mishandling the situation ... the big deal about RG3 right from the get go was that he had the ability to run, but was a pass first QB with a strong arm and excellent accuracy, and not a run first Michael Vick type .... so what do they do? They want to make him into a Michael Vick type run first QB. It's craziness, and crazy is not a sound strategy.

If there are pass pro problems, keep a blocking TE and keep the RB in to help protect. RG3 can escape a pass rush and extend plays easily ... just slow down the rush. If the o-line cannot even put up minimal resistance, then we need to fire the guys that put them out there, and not sacrifice our franchise superstar QB to mask their incompetence.

As far as your first 2 paragraphs, that is basically exactly what I am saying (so not sure about the "No" beginning). The only difference is that while you want the defense to key on movement (although LBs and DBs tend to follow assignments), you can't run a reverse because the OLBs and DBs will have an angle with little blocking on the opposite side of the field. Also, the OL movement on the triple option will have to be a bit different for a pass play -- in order to provide adequate pass protection.

That said, I do think crossing patterns could pay dividends, but they need to be quick routes and unfortuntely have to be run in the same direction as the OL and QB are moving.

As far as exposing RGIII to big hits, that is a by-product of the formation where it is a certain run play. As you said, the majority of the D personnel will key on movement and the formation forces the D to protect themselves against a draw. If the D does this and RGIII and Banks fan out, it will inevitably create a 1 on 2 situation against the OLB. The WR should have the CB sealed off. The OLB can either decide to hit the QB regardless or play the ball. Against CINCY the OLBs zeroed in on RGIII every time (and I wouldn't expect that to change). Now, if our TE/WR/OL fans out (on the snap) to protect RGIII against the OLB, the D will immediately key on that which results in the other (and faster) LBs and DBs meeting RGIII and Banks before they even get to the line of scrimmage (not to mention exposing the DE off the line). In order for it succeed, you have at least fake a draw in order to keep their DL and LBs in the middle of the field --- creating that 1 on 2 situation. The play cannot succeed otherwise. As such, I think that it should be limited as much as possible.

As far as pass protection in a converted passing play out of the Triple option, we couldn't have Banks in on the play as a pass protector (assuming a fake draw to Morris initiated the play; which is a must to force the LBs to the line). Now, if they used Helu instead of Banks, it could definetely work, but they haven't showed the formation that way yet. If they changed it now, it would be obvious what they are planning. I agree that you could throw in a TE to protect but this will result in having a limited amount of eligible recievers, seeing that Morris would be on the ground from the fake handoff. If you have 11 guys -- 5 OL, 1 QB, 1RB, 1 RB/Banks, 2WR, and 1 blocking TE -- only the 2 WRs (or 1 WR and Davis, which I would prefer) will be potential receivers and you'll need to line them both up on the other side of the play. I'm not sure it could work if the D was playing some sort of cover/zone.

If you were just saying RGIII doesn't have adequate pass pro in general (and not in the triple option) and to hang an extra TE or RB on pure passing plays -- then yes I agree totally.

With all this being said, I do agree with you that the Shanahans are using him WAY too often to run the ball and it will most likely not end well. I'm not sure they want to use him as a run first QB per se, but more in set running situations. In Vick's early years, the strategy was for him to read his first or first two options -- and if they weren't there he should run. I don't think that is what they are doing with RGIII. These are set run plays where they are using him as an RB. I agree with you that these need to be grossly limited. It is nice to have them up your sleeve, but the number one priority should be to protect RGIII.

im worried about banks flubbing the ball all over the place.

#2 and #4 are basically the same thing.

Defenses r already keying in on hitting rgiii on every available opportunity regardless of the option, designated run, or pass. Rgiii was a bit slow getting up after some of the hits on sun....i was at the game and saw, after one nasty hit (legal, on a pass play) he remained down for a few seconds......many in the stands thought he may have been injured. He hopped up shortly after, but defenses r trying to wear him out, as without him their chances of winning increase. And....at least in the bengal game.....i did not see a lot of after the whistle hits that should have been flagged but were not. The bengals played tough d, and made our oline look like swiss cheese.

While we need to keep the threat of the rgiii run in the minds of d coordinators, we prob do not need to rely on that as our bread and butter. Rgiii is not a tebow or newton clone Our coaches need to figure out better schemes that will keep rgiii's uniform clean. They know our personnel, and the old excuse of executing the offense properly doesn't fly as the only one getting executed is our qb.

Don't think we can underestimate the loss of garcon for our offense. He has already shown himself to be a playmaker.....while some of our other wr corps do not seem to be rising to the occasion like garcon. Garcon is a player that dc's have to gameplan for.....in addition to rgiii, morris....and maybe davis.

Bottom line for me is that, regardless of how tough rgiii is, he will be on the sidelines watching the action before long if he keeps getting abused like this past weekend.....

Countertrey wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote: RGIII is our strongest asset. If he gets hurt we are down and out.

I was just thinking... maybe Kyle Shanahan with a Franchise Quarterback is like Vince Young with a mutimilliondollar rookie contract...

Joey T. (in 79) and Eddie LeBaron (in 1955) are tied for rushing touchdowns in a single season for Redskins QBs... after the next two RGIII scores, Joe and Eddie will be tied for 2nd and it's only week four


FTR: Cliff Battles had 6 back in the 1930s but he was also a HB so he wasn't included.

Use it 3 or 4 times a game. Just enough to force another team to prepare for it. If it doesn't work once or twice, drop it. If it works early, ride it until the defense finds an adjustment.

The adjustment I would make is to tell RGIII if he sees the defensive end is keyed on him immediately, then just pitch it ASAP. Yeah, the pitch man (probably Banks) will probably get smoked for a loss, but you'll save some kill shots by not having RGIII trying to complete the play properly.

Smithian wrote:Use it 3 or 4 times a game. Just enough to force another team to prepare for it. If it doesn't work once or twice, drop it. If it works early, ride it until the defense finds an adjustment.

The adjustment I would make is to tell RGIII if he sees the defensive end is keyed on him immediately, then just pitch it ASAP. Yeah, the pitch man (probably Banks) will probably get smoked for a loss, but you'll save some kill shots by not having RGIII trying to complete the play properly.

If there is no threat of RGIII actually running the ball instead of pitching it, then the play is useless. He might just as well pitch it from behind center.

Those who've mentioned passing out of that formation, basically making it a super-playfake, are right on. If you run it for some critical down/distance situations in each game and occasionally hit a big passing play out of it, that seems the ideal balance.

die cowboys die wrote:Those who've mentioned passing out of that formation, basically making it a super-playfake, are right on. If you run it for some critical down/distance situations in each game and occasionally hit a big passing play out of it, that seems the ideal balance.

Let's not forget, the other option guy back there has a perfect career qb rating

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:

die cowboys die wrote:Those who've mentioned passing out of that formation, basically making it a super-playfake, are right on. If you run it for some critical down/distance situations in each game and occasionally hit a big passing play out of it, that seems the ideal balance.

Let's not forget, the other option guy back there has a perfect career qb rating

an excellent point! if you get that play set up right it's a sure TD! and then once you've shown that along with RG3 passing out of it as well, it becomes a "Quintuple Option" and i have no idea how a defense could possibly go about covering all those options.