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Trent Williams & Kory Lichtensteiger Better Than You Think?

Kory Lichtensteiger only played five games last year, but in week two against the Cardinals, Kory managed the fourth highest graded game of any left guard in 2011. Here's what Pro Football Focus had to say:

Going head-to-head with a talent like Calais Campbell often isn’t easy. Here, Lichtensteiger gave up just one pressure to the $55 million man while picking up three positive blocks in the run game against Campbell. Throw in some good work in the screen game, and this is exactly the kind of performance Shanahan wants from his interior linemen.

This earned him a +4.5 grade for the game, only 0.3 of a grade off second place.

Then we had Trent Williams week 12 performance against Seattle. He was graded with the fourth best single game performance by any left tackle in the league in this game with a +5.2 rating. Here's their analysis on Trent's performance.

Williams didn’t give up a single pressure or penalty, while grading positively five times in the run game. It was a near-flawless display and with Chris Clemons going up against you, that’s not often heard.

Interesting then that despite all the injuries and suspensions, two of our offensive lineman still managed to put up some of the best performances of the year. Lets hope these two are back and can consistently put together these kind of performances, for Robert Griffin III's sake. Does this make you feel any more comfortable with our offensive line?

Are we better off than we think?

I think so....

My feedback is this:

DEPTH!

I think the Redskins starting group IS better than it's given credit for. But the depth behind that starting group is what was exposed last year. We need LeRibeus and/or Gettis to provide help inside, and an improvement at tackle too. Losing Locklear doesn't hurt us at all, but I'd like to see better than we had on the bench last year.

UK Skins Fan wrote:My feedback is this:

DEPTH!

I think the Redskins starting group IS better than it's given credit for. But the depth behind that starting group is what was exposed last year. We need LeRibeus and/or Gettis to provide help inside, and an improvement at tackle too. Losing Locklear doesn't hurt us at all, but I'd like to see better than we had on the bench last year.

That's was Shanny said!

Shanahan said that adding depth to the offensive line was a major priority with Kory Lichtensteiger fighting back from a season-ending knee injury.

“You never have enough depth in the offensive line,” Shanahan said. “That’s why I think it was big for us to get three offensive linemen that we were hoping we were going to get before the draft started. And we weren’t really sure when they were going to go, but we were counting on signing three after the injuries last year.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... nfl-draft/

People don't wanna hear stuff like this, they'd rather be uninformed and complain.

Read this the other day, good stuff. Not sure what it says about Lichtensteiger though coming off the injury. We'll kind of have to wait and see on that one.

We are better than what we think but NOT good enough to match up with COLE,BABIN,JENKINS, WARE, RATLIFF, OSI, PIERREPAUL, TUCK...twice a season. Until we can match up against the lines fairly then we will always be at the bottom. Outside of Trent Williams we dont have any one thats in the top 15 at their position on the oline...we have seen the games...those stats dont say nothing to me BC we were ineffective running the ball in those games Kory played

1niksder wrote:Trent Williams & Kory Lichtensteiger Better Than You Think?


Are we better off than we think?

I think so....

um..no. it's one of the worst offensive lines in the sport. there's more than 2 players on an offensive line, the 3 other spots are garbage. and those 2 "bright spots" are just one joint and one blow to the knee away from their careers being in jeopardy.

I don't even think pass blocking is their problem. their ok at pass blocking, probably middle of the road. it's run blocking where this line is , at least to me, perhaps the worst line in the entire sport.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/4 ... kings?pg=3

dftt

mastdark81 wrote:We are better than what we think but NOT good enough to match up with COLE,BABIN,JENKINS, WARE, RATLIFF, OSI, PIERREPAUL, TUCK...twice a season. Until we can match up against the lines fairly then we will always be at the bottom. Outside of Trent Williams we dont have any one thats in the top 15 at their position on the oline...we have seen the games...those stats dont say nothing to me BC we were ineffective running the ball in those games Kory played

Maybe they can match up against them if they had a competent QB behind them.

Did Indy's OL just all of a sudden go from top tier to worst in the league? No. There was a drop in QB talent. We've never dropped cus we haven't gotten high up enough. We'll see just how good/bad/promising our line is with RGIII.

This issue is not talent, not sure it ever has been a real talent issue over the years. It's consistency.

Be it injuries or otherwise, without consistency, one or two great games doesn't mean a damn thing in getting to the ultimate goal of lifting the Lombardi Trophy again. Consistency, consistency, consistency. Slow and steady and pound them into the ground until exhausted submission. That was the the mantra of the hogs of years past, and no reason to get away from it, even in a Zone Blocking Scheme.

Double post - ignore

Chris Luva Luva wrote:People don't wanna hear stuff like this, they'd rather be uninformed and complain.

As a general comment, I agree Chris. BUT, to be fair, this specific piece of analysis hardly substantiates any claim that our offensive line is close to elite, or even average. One off performances in single games don't really mean a lot in the context of a season. Consistency is what we need to see.

Of course, if anybody has access to some meaningful comparison of offensive lines for the whole season, then please share. I do think our line is better than it gets credit for, but that's probably another consequence of the team's poor overall record - until the team gains respect through wins, then every unit will continue to be undervalued by the "experts".

Not sure how meaningful this analysis is (I haven't had time to sit down and work out how it works yet), but it IS based on true statistical analysis of results for 2011, as opposed to simply being some words of opinion from somebody who watched some games.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

What it appears to reveal is that our line was upper third in terms of run performance, and mid table for pass blocking. Given that they were trying to pass protecting two startled statues in Grossman and Beck, I would expect the presence of RGIII alone to help out with pass protection.

UK Skins Fan wrote:this specific piece of analysis hardly substantiates any claim that our offensive line is close to elite, or even average. One off performances in single games don't really mean a lot in the context of a season.

You didn't have to read the article to know that this line is vastly improved over what it has been. This line played great before it was plagued with injury. In addition, after the rookies were inserted and reshuffled, they eventually gelled and played well the last couple of games.

UK Skins Fan wrote: Consistency is what we need to see.

More-so than consistency, I'd like to see less injuries, which would provide the cotinuity. But those injuries also benefitted us, our 2010 rookie got A LOT of playing time.

UK Skins Fan wrote:Of course, if anybody has access to some meaningful comparison of offensive lines for the whole season, then please share. I do think our line is better than it gets credit for, but that's probably another consequence of the team's poor overall record - until the team gains respect through wins, then every unit will continue to be undervalued by the "experts".

More-so than the W/L record, it's gonna be the QB play that elevates our OL ranking. Putting Curtis Painter behind the same line as Peyton Manning did what for Curtis? Nothing. Because it wasn't the offensive line, it was the QB.

Big Ben, he has a terrible offensive line, but his play elevates him.

GreenBay, really, how good is that offensive line? Is it Aaron or is it the line? Question for you. If you have the choice between Rodgers or his line, you'd pick Rodgers right? Of course you would.

If RGIII can be decisive in his throws and judicious with his runs, he's gonna make this line look really good.

CLL said:

If RGIII can be decisive in his throws and judicious with his runs, he's gonna make this line look really good.

This... yeah... this.

Countertrey wrote:CLL said:

If RGIII can be decisive in his throws and judicious with his runs, he's gonna make this line look really good.

This... yeah... this.

+1

Chris Luva Luva wrote:You didn't have to read the article to know that this line is vastly improved over what it has been. This line played great before it was plagued with injury. In addition, after the rookies were inserted and reshuffled, they eventually gelled and played well the last couple of games.

To be fair, I think if you were playing right guard and I was at left tackle Chris, the line would still be better than it was a couple of years ago!

Another point: the offensive line could surely be helped out by the playcalling? A commitment to the running game, especially when it's going well, would be a help. It makes me want to hurl when I listen to the Redskins march down the field by running the ball, only to have it screwed up by Kyle's huge brain trying to out-think the opposition, rather than let his offensive line beat them, just as they were doing before they got inside the 20.

And when it comes to passing, of course, having a quarterback who throws it on time, and to the right place, would be huge. I think this line is going to make it a point of personal pride to keep RGIII upright. If his charisma in the huddle is anything like what he brings to the press room, then these linemen are going to want to run through walls for him. Would YOU do that for Rex?!

UK Skins Fan wrote: Another point: the offensive line could surely be helped out by the playcalling?

That's the case on any/every team. I have no gripe with the play calling. Kyle isn't out there throwing interceptions.

UK Skins Fan wrote:A commitment to the running game, especially when it's going well, would be a help.

There is a commitment to the run, but you can't be 1 dimensional. First and foremost, this is a passing leauge. Secondly, you have to keep defenses honest. When you're not scoring points, you can't keep running the rock in the 4th QTR. You are forced to play catch up.

People make it seem as if Kyle is missing easy play calls, and that a simple run between the tackles would solve all of our offensive woes. Do you think that defenses are stacking against the run? Do you think that opposing DC's don't recognize our midget WR's? Do you think that they don't recognize Rex and Beck at QB?

Of course they do, so you gotta take what the defense gives you. The problem was the QB. Every team last year played the odd's of "Good Rex vs Bad Rex"... When good Rex showed up, we won... When bad Rex showed up, they won the bet.

UK Skins Fan wrote:It makes me want to hurl when I listen to the Redskins march down the field by running the ball, only to have it screwed up by Kyle's huge brain trying to out-think the opposition, rather than let his offensive line beat them, just as they were doing before they got inside the 20.

But you can't compare the offense between the 20's to the offense in the redzone. The defense is compacted, you're out of real estate. The defensive can more easily defend both the run and pass. And as I said before, they're gonna stop the run because the odds are, Rex gets sacked or throws a pick. Who in our WR corps demanded attention last year? Davis. That's one guy.

UK Skins Fan wrote:And when it comes to passing, of course, having a quarterback who throws it on time, and to the right place, would be huge.

Huge??? It's EVERYTHING. For the Colts, it was the difference between 13 wins and 1 win for an entire season.

UK Skins Fan wrote:I think this line is going to make it a point of personal pride to keep RGIII upright.

I don't see it that way. That's too rainbowy and hugs & kisses for me. Those guys are come out to play and do their job, just like they did last year. IF RGIII can get the ball out of his hands, they'll all look good.

UK Skins Fan wrote:If his charisma in the huddle is anything like what he brings to the press room, then these linemen are going to want to run through walls for him. Would YOU do that for Rex?!

A good QB makes his linemen look good. That charisma wont mean jack if he's taking sacks, making bad reads and patting the ball too much. That smile aint gonna get the ball out on time. If he's producing in conjunctino with that charisma, then I see your scenario playing out.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:We are better than what we think but NOT good enough to match up with COLE,BABIN,JENKINS, WARE, RATLIFF, OSI, PIERREPAUL, TUCK...twice a season. Until we can match up against the lines fairly then we will always be at the bottom. Outside of Trent Williams we dont have any one thats in the top 15 at their position on the oline...we have seen the games...those stats dont say nothing to me BC we were ineffective running the ball in those games Kory played

Maybe they can match up against them if they had a competent QB behind them.

Did Indy's OL just all of a sudden go from top tier to worst in the league? No. There was a drop in QB talent. We've never dropped cus we haven't gotten high up enough. We'll see just how good/bad/promising our line is with RGIII.

Colts downfall had more to do with the team organization/coaching then just quarterback. When Indy was successful and won their SuperBowl Peyton had Tarik Glenn, Jeff Saturday two all pro's...potential hall of famers.

This is not a playoff line. We need an interior all-pro. Couldn't get an inch with this line if we really needed it in crunch time, shoot we can't even stop guys from blocking our field goals!!

Lets make a starting 5 of just NFC East olineman and how many Redskins would you put in that starting 5?

Riiiiiight. Thats why we last in the division each year.

mastdark81 wrote:Colts downfall had more to do with the team organization/coaching then just quarterback. When Indy was successful and won their SuperBowl Peyton had Tarik Glenn, Jeff Saturday two all pro's...potential hall of famers.

I can't agree with that at all. They won 10 games in the previous season with the same exact squad. Subtract Peyton Manning, they win 2 games in 2011. I'm not discussing Superbowls, we're discussing the impact that a competent QB has in making the o-line look better than it is, or having a bad QB make it look worse than it is.

mastdark81 wrote:This is not a playoff line. We need an interior all-pro. Couldn't get an inch with this line if we really needed it in crunch time, shoot we can't even stop guys from blocking our field goals!!

1. We don't know how good/bad they are yet.

2. I find it even more difficult to accept your stance because it's not even accurate. http://www.thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38059
Read that thread. Most of the blocks were due to defensive linemen...

Our starting OL took A LOT of injuries last year. They played well towards the end, if you can be unbiased.

mastdark81 wrote:Lets make a starting 5 of just NFC East olineman and how many Redskins would you put in that starting 5?

Riiiiiight. Thats why we last in the division each year.

Different systems, different requirements. Your point is moot and almost as baseless as the one I disproved above.

How many NFCE teams run the Mike ZBS? None.

I bet if we released some of our OL bodies, the Texans would scoop 1 or 2 of them up. Heck, they just snatched up John Beck. ZBS to ZBS, we have quality players, let's be real.

mastdark81 wrote:Lets make a starting 5 of just NFC East O lineman and how many Redskins would you put in that starting 5?

Riiiiiight. That's why we last in the division each year.

I don't agree with the basic thought here

the most important thing is for the players to play together

the O line helps the QB and the QB helps the O line - these go hand in hand

having great offensive linemen is not nearly as important as having good offensive linemen that play better together

there is no doubt that the other 3 NFC East teams' defensive lines will play well but ...

this Redskins offense will be better because of better play from the QB and the whole offense should be improved

nothing is certain but this offense and this franchise look to be better this coming season than we were last season

last season we beat the giants twice

SkinsJock wrote:the most important thing is for the players to play together

And within the system that they're being hand-picked for. You can't compare the requirements or abilities of OL for ZBS to those of a power run team...

Chris Luva Luva wrote:uote]

More-so than the W/L record, it's gonna be the QB play that elevates our OL ranking. Putting Curtis Painter behind the same line as Peyton Manning did what for Curtis? Nothing. Because it wasn't the offensive line, it was the QB.

Big Ben, he has a terrible offensive line, but his play elevates him.

GreenBay, really, how good is that offensive line? Is it Aaron or is it the line? Question for you. If you have the choice between Rodgers or his line, you'd pick Rodgers right? Of course you would.

If RGIII can be decisive in his throws and judicious with his runs, he's gonna make this line look really good.

I'm sorry, I've known for years that Indy's OL was garbage and it was Manning that made them look adequate.

Now for Big Ben. I disagree, I think it is Ben that makes the Pburge ol look as bad as it does. He takes a tuon of hits and sacks that he doesn't need to. True, his habit of holding on to the ball is the primary reason he gets hit so much.

A Rogers was one of the most sacked QBs until he started getting rid of the ball.

Rex actually avoided a lot of sacks last year. Not by moving around, buy by getting rid of the ball (sometimes to our guy and someone to theirs). He didn't take many sacks but he sure took a lot of hits!

Our ol was one of the worst in the NFL I'm giving up hits. A high sack total reflects almost as much on the QB as it does on the OL, but a high hit number reflects more so on the OL.

Don't expect RG3 to improve to improve matters fir the OL. He had a habit (like Big Ben) of holding on to the ball too much. He is a rookie QB and he will probably run more next year than other QBs. All three of those things will lead this team to give up more sacks than it did last year. But watch the hit total. Of to number of QB hits goes down to an acceptable level then maybe the OL is improving.

Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.

^^ you are in for a surprise

this offensive line and this offense are going to be a lot quicker and more effective this season