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Where can RGIII improve?
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:44 am
by Chris Luva Luva
I've been watching as much video of RGIII as I can lately. And for those of you who have been scouting via YouTube like me, what do you discern to be RGIII's weaknesses? Where do you think he'll struggle? What type of system wrinkles will be thrown in to protect those weaknesses as he develops?
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:45 am
by Countertrey
The primary question is, "how does he respond to NFL speed" In every interview I have seen, this is the first thing that slaps rooks in the face. Offenses are faster. Defenses are faster. Schemes are more complex. Reads and responses can be multi-faceted.
Can he get past that? I have no doubt. The question is, how fast can he get faster?
This was something that Jason Campbell was never able to overcome. The game just never "slowed down" for him.
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:58 am
by Chris Luva Luva
I really want to see what his pocket awareness is like.
Also, he gets flung around a lot, he seems a bit light in the butt.
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:16 pm
by rskin72
I will fess up to not seeing a huge amount of video on RGIII (or Luck for that matter) but the thing that concerns me is how quick/will he develop into a field general like a Manning or a Brady.....or will he become a QB with blazing speed, strong and accurate arm, but cannot read/diagnose defenses at the line of scrimmage therefore makes bad decisions in the pocket.
Look at Vick....talented QB, but apparently up until last season, never took the time to study/learn defenses.
To me, if RGIII is going to become that special QB....he will need to develop into that field general. Luck had that opportunity in the Stanford system, and that is a large reason why most thought that Luck was the more complete/finished QB between the two. RGIII did not play in that type of system. Can he adapt? He is certainly smart enough, and apparently motivated.....but it won't happen overnight.
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:37 pm
by 1niksder
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:38 pm
by HarleyHog
I Suspect that RGII and Sgt Mom Instilled the military mindset as a primal drive. RGIII will be the field general we need. He will study. He will prepare. He will do after-action review and find ways to improve regardless of outcome. He will lead by example.
I have seen precious little footage of his play, but I sure liked what I saw. While he has been OUTSTANDING so far, at the NFL level every aspect of his game will need to improve if he is to be OUTSTANDING moving forward. Pocket presence is by biggest concern, although not TOO concerned, but we face very tough sackmasters 6 games per year at a minimum.
I don't see any way that RGIII (2.0) doesnt prove an upgrade over RGIII (1.0, or perhaps 0.0?)
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:51 pm
by 1niksder
Mike Mayock doesn’t see any red flags with RG3
Note: these guys put their name on what they say
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:04 pm
by The Hogster
For a guy of his mobility, he's taken a lot of sacks. If I were to nit pick a weakness, it would be that he could use his athleticism and run a bit more when the play isn't there. Again, nit picking.
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:53 pm
by Countertrey
The Hogster wrote:For a guy of his mobility, he's taken a lot of sacks. If I were to nit pick a weakness, it would be that he could use his athleticism and run a bit more when the play isn't there. Again, nit picking.
Shanahan has had a lot of experience coaching up mobile quarterbacks who have good arms and solid situational awareness (Steve Young, John Elway, Jay Cutler, Jake Plummer). I don't believe he has ever had one quite this elusive or fast, with soooo many other outstanding measurables AND intangibles... I'm looking forward to seeing this product at the beginning of his 3rd season... should be very scarey for D Coords...
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:39 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
The Hogster wrote:For a guy of his mobility, he's taken a lot of sacks. If I were to nit pick a weakness, it would be that he could use his athleticism and run a bit more when the play isn't there. Again, nit picking.
I think this goes back to what Polian recently said in regards to what type of a runner he is... Track vs Football.
Also, some of those sacks kind of made me wonder about his pocket awareness. But he does tend to step up in the pocket to avoid the edge rushers.
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:11 pm
by emoses14
I'm not sure that its his biggest weakness or anything, but what I'm most worried about with him are his progression reads. BUT I think his vision of the field exhibited when a play breaks down or needs saving is tremendous, so I can't see it being a difficult issue, but I think the "speed of the game" rookie qb issue CT referred to probably most often manifests in progressions.
Frankly, I think where we're going to be pleasantly surprised is how quickly this guy develops. I see him as one of those "makes a mistake once" kind of guys.
Re: Where can RGIII improve?
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:12 pm
by emoses14
Chris Luva Luva wrote:I've been watching as much video of RGIII as I can lately. And for those of you who have been scouting via YouTube like me, what do you discern to be RGIII's weaknesses? Where do you think he'll struggle? What type of system wrinkles will be thrown in to protect those weaknesses as he develops?
Great post, by the way. Seriously.
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:30 pm
by Red_One43
This is and isn't my biggest concern with RGIII: Kyle!!!
He is: Kyle wants the offense to be run exactly the way he wants it to be run. Can RGIII work with the seemingly rigid Kyle? Will there be room for any RGIII "feel" for the game?
He isn't: Look what Kyle's offense did for Grossman (The fact that Grossman couldn't stop turning the ball over is not the fault of the offensive scheme). Look what it did for Shaub. T.J. Yates.
The transition to the pro offense - several spread QBs have made it and a QB as highly rated by the scouts to include Mayock should make that transition easily. Just like Dalton.
Grossman says with repetitions in practice the repetitions come naturally, so I am not worried about rookie mistakes. They will come, but I am hoping that this offense will minimize them because the scheme will set RGIII up for success.
“During the course of a regular game, Kyle Shanahan wants you to run the offense exactly how he wants it, down to the amount of hitches you take to go through your progressions,” Grossman told Zig Fracassi and Solomon Wilcots, per Steinberg. “And if you really study that and rep that in practice, then it becomes a lot easier during the game. You’re not thinking as much as your body just goes through the progressions. That’s some of the things that’s really helped me start the second half of my career, and I feel like I’m a much better quarterback because of that.”
Think about that one. Kyle Shanahan wants the quarterback “to run the offense exactly how he wants it, down to the amount of hitches you take to go through your progressions.”
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... rol-freak/
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:16 pm
by Hooligan
From what I've seen on Griffin, he senses pressure and moves accordingly in the pocket, or slides out of the pocket, while keeping his eyes downfield. I think that'll translate well into the NFL.
On picking up the speed of the game: he has all the physical tools, the intelligence, and most importantly the drive and desire to excel at the QB position. Didn't sit in a chair and throw passes to his father while rehabbing a knee injury? He'll do whatever he has to do to run the offense and lead the team successfully. I'm no scout, but I'm not really worried.
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:09 am
by CanesSkins26
This is from December, but mentions some areas he can improve on...
One college scout assigned to the Big 12 I spoke to was less enthusiastic about Griffin's prospects than the above execs, but conceded that he's one that some will more than likely fall for over his overwhelming physical gifts.
"That offense made things simple on him," said the scout. "Because he's such a running threat, he saw soft coverage, you didn't see defensive ends bending the corner to get him. They played him different to keep him in the pocket, and as a result, he got passing lanes he may not get in the pros. It's a problem, because he's got average-to-below-average size. The Vick comparison is there, because you figure he'll miss games (due to injury), but you can't tell him not to run, because that's what makes him special."
The scout continued that, "There's gonna be a significant development period. Him moreso than anyone. You can't fault him for what they didn't ask him to do. I think he's capable of it. But it's natural as a talent evaluator to want to see it."
Brooks: The book on Barkley
Matt Barkley announced Thursday he will return to USC for his senior season. Bucky Brooks says the young QB has a few skills to hone. More ...
The positives? Griffin is more athletic and has a better arm than Luck or Barkley. Also, Griffin did complete 72.4 percent of his passes this year. The college scout said part of that is that "roughly 75 percent" of his throws went no further than 7 or 8 yards past the line of scrimmage, but Griffin also exhibited deep accuracy uncommon for a spread quarterback in limited chances to show it.
Beyond Baylor's offensive structure, other negatives you get from these evaluators start with Griffin taking hits that aren't necessary. "He's not as big as Cam (Newton) and takes more hits than he should. You wonder if he's trying to be a tough guy ... because he doesn't always play smart," said the first exec.
On the flip side, he does run with the purpose of throwing, but his accuracy was rarely tested with tight-fitting throws. There were also third-down inconsistencies that raise red flags. "If it's third-and-6, Barkley will get it more than RG3 does," said the second exec. "When I look at RG3, I see a lot of big plays, but a lot of third downs he didn't get too."
Add it all up and you have a fascinating player. Where one of the execs said Luck's upside is that of a more athletic Peyton Manning, and Barkley's ideal is to wind up being a shorter, more compact Troy Aikman, all three of the aforementioned guys compared Griffin to Randall Cunningham. Not bad.
"He makes some throws that blow your mind," the first exec said. "With Luck, you're getting a safe pick. With Barkley, you're getting a safe pick. Maybe they won't win world championships, but they'll be plenty good no matter what, in my mind. There's more of a risk factor with Griffin. But if you hit on him, you've got a chance to have a world-championship-making player."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8254ff24/article/with-barkley-now-out-of-picture-attention-turns-to-griffin
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:01 am
by rskin72
I think most fans.....and coaches....expect far more from RGIII than a smaller version of Cunningham. Heck, the other two qb's are compared with SB winning players.......RGIII is compared with a good qb who had one exceptional year in Minn with one of the best receiver tandems ever to play the game i.e. young Randy Moss and Chris Carter. A college qb can only develop as far as the system allows, and as far as the colege coaching staff can train him. Comments mentioned in article duly noted.....check back in a year or two for accuracy evaluation.
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:32 am
by jmooney
The biggest improvement he could make at this point ?
His zip code. Get the hell out of Texas young man!
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:25 am
by riggofan
Red_One43 wrote:This is and isn't my biggest concern with RGIII: Kyle!!!
He is: Kyle wants the offense to be run exactly the way he wants it to be run. Can RGIII work with the seemingly rigid Kyle? Will there be room for any RGIII "feel" for the game?
He isn't: Look what Kyle's offense did for Grossman (The fact that Grossman couldn't stop turning the ball over is not the fault of the offensive scheme). Look what it did for Shaub. T.J. Yates.
I'm not following your post. Do you want RGIII to run the offense the way it is designed or do you want him to him to be McNabb?
I would hope that a guy as smart, young and skilled as RGIII will come in and learn to run the offense. I'd also hope that his talent will allow him to improvise when things break down. I would hope FURTHER that when RGIII struggles this year we don't all go crazy about Kyle Shanahan and end up with another coach or offensive coordinator in 2013.
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:33 am
by Red_One43
riggofan wrote:Red_One43 wrote:This is and isn't my biggest concern with RGIII: Kyle!!!
He is: Kyle wants the offense to be run exactly the way he wants it to be run. Can RGIII work with the seemingly rigid Kyle? Will there be room for any RGIII "feel" for the game?
He isn't: Look what Kyle's offense did for Grossman (The fact that Grossman couldn't stop turning the ball over is not the fault of the offensive scheme). Look what it did for Shaub. T.J. Yates.
I'm not following your post. Do you want RGIII to run the offense the way it is designed or do you want him to him to be McNabb?
I would hope that a guy as smart, young and skilled as RGIII will come in and learn to run the offense. I'd also hope that his talent will allow him to improvise when things break down. I would hope FURTHER that when RGIII struggles this year we don't all go crazy about Kyle Shanahan and end up with another coach or offensive coordinator in 2013.
If you are not following my post, that's OK, because the confliction is on me.
I
want to believe that Kyle will do the right thing, but then again, I have seen Kyle in action.
In the article I posted, Rex talks how rigid Kyle is with is offense - right down to the number of hitches - Will this work for a creative QB like RGIII? This could be great for a rookie, but RGIII is not just any rookie
This is my concern.
I rather a coach tweak to the player than the player tweak to the coach and the tweaking be done to give us the best chance to win. It doesn't have to be the my way or the highway impasse like McNabb vs Kyle.
Why do you offer extremes on this issue? - McNabb or follow Kyle's offense as is.
Why can't we do a little tweaking like the Panthers did for Cam (Ok, they did a lot - not saying that much)? I am not saying add elements for the spread, so RGIII can run like they did for Cam, but add elements that suit RGIII's strengths.
I am reading Mike Shanahan's book, "Think Like a Champion." In the book, he addresses his critics that say he doesn't make adjustments. Mike says when he has a QB that he trusts, he always gives them to input and makes adjustments to suit them,
BUT this is Mike talking not Kyle.
In summary,
I am a homer, so I am going to trust that the Shanahans (to include Kyle) will do RGIII right because they have too much invested in him and RGIII is no Donovan McNabb - but this doesn't mean that I am not still concerned for now.
I don't advocate for Kyle to be fired. He has more upside than faults. I am with you on that.
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:47 am
by Red_One43
jmooney wrote:The biggest improvement he could make at this point ?
His zip code. Get the hell out of Texas young man!
I love my home state of Texas, but when someone gave me the same advice as yours, I took it an moved up here to be in Redskin Land. It was great advice!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:01 am
by SkinsJock
There is no doubt that RG3 has a lot to live up to and the challenge he faces is to do what he can as well as he can and not push to do more
This kid has a lot of drive and desire to be as great as he can be - that is a part of what makes him so good
There is no doubt that Mike's immediate future depends on he & Kyle developing this VERY talented QB to be as great as he can be
RG3 is not going to be an instantly great QB but he will help the offense as long as these guys help & encourage RG3 and don't try and force him to be better
RG3 is going to experience a big adjustment from the college game .. PLUS he's going to try and get what these guys want from the offense
Mike & Kyle need to help RG3 be the great QB he can be not try and make him something he's not
RG3 has all the intangibles ... hopefully the guys that are molding him are up to the task too ... THIS is very important
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:11 am
by Red_One43
CanesSkins26 wrote:This is from December, but mentions some areas he can improve on...
"That offense made things simple on him," said the scout. "Because he's such a running threat, he saw soft coverage, you didn't see defensive ends bending the corner to get him. They played him different to keep him in the pocket, and as a result, he got passing lanes he may not get in the pros. It's a problem, because he's got average-to-below-average size. The Vick comparison is there, because you figure he'll miss games (due to injury), but you can't tell him not to run, because that's what makes him special."
The scout continued that, "There's gonna be a significant development period. Him moreso than anyone. You can't fault him for what they didn't ask him to do. I think he's capable of it. But it's natural as a talent evaluator to want to see it."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8254ff24/article/with-barkley-now-out-of-picture-attention-turns-to-griffin
Overall, I think that this article is a fair assessment of RGIII.
I want to address the concern that RGIII played in a simple offense. The offense at Auburn was made simple for Cam Newton as well. That's the nature of spread offenses. While I agree, that it is a legit concern (It will be raised for Landry Jones next year), it is not like the Andy Dalton's, Sam Bradford's and Cam Newton's could not adjust to the pro game in their rookie seasons. For me, I have no doubts that RGIII will adjust very well to the pro style offense. The scouts are also saying that RGIII is a smart football player - if this part of his game is really true, then the odds are RGIII will have no problem picking up the pro offenses. We have seen Tebow struggle with the pro offense, not because of his lack of football smarts. It was because of his lack of skills - RGIII has the skills. JaMarcus Russell busted not because he lacked the skills. He lacked the work ethic - RGIII has the work ethic.
In the article, it also mentioned RGIII taking unnecessary hits. Tthat is a concern for me as well. I hope that he adds the slide to his repertoire.
Thanks for the post, Canes.
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:57 pm
by SkinsJock
The desire and will to be better will help him
hopefully the coaches can help too
this kid will find a way to be better than the expectations that others have for him - that is what makes some players better than others
Eli will never be better than Peyton - he doesn't want it bad enough
look at the desire by QBs like Montana, Brady and Brees - some QBs are just naturally good and want to be better
RG3 does not simply want to be better for himself - RG3 is HIGHLY motivated to make everybody else around him better
this kid is special
Andrew Luck has a lot more talent and seems better prepared initially
I doubt Andrew Luck is as driven to be great a QB as RG3 - both will be great but RG3 has more drive and desire
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:04 pm
by rskin72
Red_One43, meant to comment on that article you posted WRT Kyle.....was an interesting read. I would guess, however, that every coach is, to varying degrees, a control freak. Parcells wanted to buy the groceries in addition to cooking the meal! While I do not mind control, there is the absurd end of that, and the article kind of hints to that.
I think what you are getting at.....and hopefully what will happen....is that Mike and Kyle will design their offense to best suit RGIII, and the talent level around him currently. Don't think this will need to be the change that John Fox went through in Denver with the insertion of Tebow as starting QB.....but Kyle cannot be so locked into his "system" that we do not provide our QB with the best opportunity to succeed.
I am still not sold on the younger Shanahan.....but the elder Shanahan has a proven track history with QB's (though all is not roses there either) so am with you in trusting our coaching staff to help RGIII live up to his potential and the hype.
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:12 pm
by SkinsJock
Mike will not let ANYONE not make sure that everything and anything we do offensively is geared towards whatever is good for RG3
I believe the offense will be brought along and plays added according to what suits RG3... NOT whatever Kyle wants