The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

This is an article from Bleacher Report

I just think it's worth noting how important the position of HC is perceived to be by the media

did anyone see the success that the Oaklland A's had in the movie "Moneyball" DESPITE the actions of their manager Art Howe
Did anyone remember that, at that time (and in the movie) the media all thought that Art Howe did a great job - BS

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1049 ... ant-decade

This franchise would NOT have done better by keeping Turner or Marty as HC
Snyder is THE MAIN reason this franchise has not done well
not even Joe Gibbs return could help this franchise get out from under the result of gross misconduct by Snyder and Cerrato

this franchise had NO management - that is to say, it was not bad management or poor management ...
THIS FRANCHISE WAS NOT MANAGED BY ANYONE THAT HAD ANY NFL KNOWLEDGE FOR OVER 10 YEARS

NO HC was going to make a difference here


A HC is only going to be able to do so much when the players that are brought in here were not brought in to play with the other players that were here
FACT IS the guys in charge here (that didn't have a clue) thought the players they added might be able to play together


This FO will get things straightened out - it's going to take more time than even they thought

FOR THE NEXT 2 DRAFTS and with the majority of free agents we bring in here - we still need as many, young, VERY talented players, that this FO can find


This is a VERY good FO and this is a really good HC - both are the best we've had here since 1999 - THAT'S A GOOD THING


stick with the plan

THings couldn't have turned out any differently than they did. Snyder wanted control and no self-respecting coach would willingly grant it to him. Snyder got people who needed him (spurrier, Zorn) or would enable him (Gibbs). Now he's settled on a guy who didn't need him. Mike has his legacy, he has his ring and could have gone wherever he wanted.

Snyder's money means NOTHING in the NFL and for all he's spent, he's gained nothing. So regardless of his ego, his pride or whatever. He's a poor man in the NFL. Success is guaged by wins, championships, how the fans view you, how you treat the city. Snyder has failed consistenly, and miserably. He is poor.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Snyder's money means NOTHING in the NFL and for all he's spent, he's gained nothing. So regardless of his ego, his pride or whatever. He's a poor man in the NFL. Success is guaged by wins, championships, how the fans view you, how you treat the city. Snyder has failed consistenly, and miserably. He is poor.

I'd still take Snyder over Robert Kraft every day of the week and twice on Sundays. For years I was one of the few vocal supporters of Dan Snyder. I no longer am anywhere near as much of a supporter of his as I used to be. His buying into this new salary cap system and his grudging acceptance of the "Play not to Lose" mentality that has become so prevailant in the league disgusts me.

On Sunday the Giants and Patriots will play to see who is the LEAST BAD team in the NFL, not the BEST team in the league. That's a pity in my mind, because it didn't used to be that way. Then 1994 happened and nothing has ever been the same since.

Just another anti Snyder rant. Keep in mind that moneyball is a movie, a hollywood movie, nothing more. It is more fiction than fact.

SkinsJock wrote:This is an article from Bleacher Report

I just think it's worth noting how important the position of HC is perceived to be by the media

did anyone see the success that the Oaklland A's had in the movie "Moneyball" DESPITE the actions of their manager Art Howe
Did anyone remember that, at that time (and in the movie) the media all thought that Art Howe did a great job - BS

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1049 ... ant-decade

This franchise would NOT have done better by keeping Turner or Marty as HC
Snyder is THE MAIN reason this franchise has not done well
not even Joe Gibbs return could help this franchise get out from under the result of gross misconduct by Snyder and Cerrato

this franchise had NO management - that is to say, it was not bad management or poor management ...
THIS FRANCHISE WAS NOT MANAGED BY ANYONE THAT HAD ANY NFL KNOWLEDGE FOR OVER 10 YEARS

NO HC was going to make a difference here


A HC is only going to be able to do so much when the players that are brought in here were not brought in to play with the other players that were here
FACT IS the guys in charge here (that didn't have a clue) thought the players they added might be able to play together


This FO will get things straightened out - it's going to take more time than even they thought

FOR THE NEXT 2 DRAFTS and with the majority of free agents we bring in here - we still need as many, young, VERY talented players, that this FO can find


This is a VERY good FO and this is a really good HC - both are the best we've had here since 1999 - THAT'S A GOOD THING


stick with the plan

What in the world does the movie "Moneyball" have to do with the Redskins? Have you ever read the book? If you had, you would know that the movie completely distorts Art Howe's roll as manager.

As for this front office, please show me what track record of success either Allen or Shanahan have in the front office? Allen was mediocre, at best, as the GM for the Bucs, and he has never won a playoff game while being the GM of a team. Shanahan was fired from Denver largely because of the personnel decisions that he made. The guy has won exactly one playoff game in the last 12 seasons that he's coached.

Look, they've done some good and bad things so far, and it's too soon to say that they won't be successful, but the fact is that Allen has not been very successful as a GM so far in his career, and Shanahan hasn't accomplished much as either a front office guy or coach since Elway retired.

Sorry Canes - your sig establishes your credibilty


anyone that cannot see how much better off we are, considering where we were - does not have a clue

anyone that has to look at the past to try and make out like these guys have not accomplished much here - does not have a clue

get with it and take an honest look at things

Mike has stated that things were worse than he imagined and he was not ready for the scope of getting things back in shape here



AND - you might want to try and not to be so biased & anti these guys

CanesSkins26 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:This is an article from Bleacher Report

I just think it's worth noting how important the position of HC is perceived to be by the media

did anyone see the success that the Oaklland A's had in the movie "Moneyball" DESPITE the actions of their manager Art Howe
Did anyone remember that, at that time (and in the movie) the media all thought that Art Howe did a great job - BS

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1049 ... ant-decade

This franchise would NOT have done better by keeping Turner or Marty as HC
Snyder is THE MAIN reason this franchise has not done well
not even Joe Gibbs return could help this franchise get out from under the result of gross misconduct by Snyder and Cerrato

this franchise had NO management - that is to say, it was not bad management or poor management ...
THIS FRANCHISE WAS NOT MANAGED BY ANYONE THAT HAD ANY NFL KNOWLEDGE FOR OVER 10 YEARS

NO HC was going to make a difference here


A HC is only going to be able to do so much when the players that are brought in here were not brought in to play with the other players that were here
FACT IS the guys in charge here (that didn't have a clue) thought the players they added might be able to play together


This FO will get things straightened out - it's going to take more time than even they thought

FOR THE NEXT 2 DRAFTS and with the majority of free agents we bring in here - we still need as many, young, VERY talented players, that this FO can find


This is a VERY good FO and this is a really good HC - both are the best we've had here since 1999 - THAT'S A GOOD THING


stick with the plan

What in the world does the movie "Moneyball" have to do with the Redskins? Have you ever read the book? If you had, you would know that the movie completely distorts Art Howe's roll as manager.

As for this front office, please show me what track record of success either Allen or Shanahan have in the front office? Allen was mediocre, at best, as the GM for the Bucs, and he has never won a playoff game while being the GM of a team. Shanahan was fired from Denver largely because of the personnel decisions that he made. The guy has won exactly one playoff game in the last 12 seasons that he's coached.

Look, they've done some good and bad things so far, and it's too soon to say that they won't be successful, but the fact is that Allen has not been very successful as a GM so far in his career, and Shanahan hasn't accomplished much as either a front office guy or coach since Elway retired.

And Joe Gibbs was only slightly above average in his second stint with the skins and Bill belicheck was a disaster as a head football coach in Cleveland before becoming a "genius" in New England .

I don't disagree, really, with what you've said. But track records, good or bad, don't necessarily mean squat. In my opinion, the only mistake they've made thus far with my team (the only track record I give a rip abotu) was the McNabb acquisition and I can usually talk myself into understanding how they made that mistake (I mean, honestly, that guy fell of a damn cliff). I absolutely side with Shanahan 100% in the Haynesworth episode. We'll have to wait and see what this draft and year 3 looks like and beyond, agreed.

My characterization of the job they've done so far would be just a tinge more positive, given the craptastic situation they're rectifying.

SkinsJock wrote:Sorry Canes - your sig establishes your credibilty

What did it say? I don't see it.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote: I'd still take Snyder over Robert Kraft every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

That has nothing to do with my point. I admire his desire to win but what has his money garnered him in this league? What has his impulsive decision making coupled with his ability to spend garnered him? Nothing positive sir...

Now that he has football minds at the helm, his good qualities will be able to help the team and not destroy it.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote: On Sunday the Giants and Patriots will play to see who is the LEAST BAD team in the NFL, not the BEST team in the league.

They're in the SB, we aren't. Anything said about them just comes off as hate....

Chris Luva Luva wrote:That has nothing to do with my point. I admire his desire to win but what has his money garnered him in this league? What has his impulsive decision making coupled with his ability to spend garnered him? Nothing positive sir..

Now that he has football minds at the helm, his good qualities will be able to help the team and not destroy it.

It's not the money that made me like him. It was his willingness to strive for GREATNESS in the team rather than settling for the Above Averageness that is now the road to success in the NFL. Those football minds he's handed the reins to, do buy into that "Playing Not to Lose" philosophy and it personally disgusts me.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:They're in the SB, we aren't. Anything said about them just comes off as hate....

For one of those teams it is most definitely HATE of the highest order. Bill Beliscum and company could cure Cancer and I would have nothing but disgust and hatred for them, now and forever.

SkinsJock wrote:This franchise would NOT have done better by keeping Turner or Marty as HC

Don't know how you can possibly make this claim. The first thing Marty did when he came in was fire Vinny Cerrato. Then he took care of the cap situation Vinny and The Danny had created. Our team finished that season going 8-3. The Danny fired him to bring in Spurrier and to get control of the team back. Then Marty went to SD and turned that team around, proving he could do the job if left to his own devices. Firing Marty was The Danny's biggest mistake, right after buying the team in the first place.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:It's not the money that made me like him. It was his willingness to strive for GREATNESS in the team rather than settling for the Above Averageness that is now the road to success in the NFL. Those football minds he's handed the reins to, do buy into that "Playing Not to Lose" philosophy and it personally disgusts me.

What is the "playing not to lose" philosophy? I've never heard of such a thing in the NFL. Maybe in world cup soccer...?

I think Snyder is a brilliant businessman, and I love that he's seemingly willing to do ANYTHING to make the team better. I just hate that we've all had to endure the 10+ years it took for him to learn that he needed to put experienced football people in charge of the actual football team. Whatever Bruce and Mike's track records may be, you will never convince me that the situation now isn't 1000x better than with Snyder/Cerrato/Zorn running the show.

riggofan wrote:What is the "playing not to lose" philosophy? I've never heard of such a thing in the NFL. Maybe in world cup soccer...?

Very simply, it's putting together a SYSTEM rather than a TEAM. Why did the New England Patriots fo 11-5 with Matt Cassel at the helm after Brady went down a couple years back?... Because their team is built like Henry Ford would have wanted.... A bunch of pre-molded, punched, and assembled parts that can be replaced at any time. It's about not making mistakes and keeping the other guy from making big plays rather than making big plays yourself. Playing it SAFE rather than playing to be GREAT. Esssentially it is the system that the NFL prefers because it creates a much more balanced playing field and works much better with the ridiculous salary cap they've established. It punishes teams for trying to be GREAT by limiting the number of high priced players they can acquire and forces them to play with has-beens and never-will-be's beside them if they try.

SkinsJock wrote:
anyone that cannot see how much better off we are, considering where we were - does not have a clue

Yes, but everything is relative. Please realize that we had Vinny and Danny making our decisions for over a decade prior to MS and BA coming in. I am confident in saying that those two were the absolute worst NFL FO in the league and in Redskins history.

So, when LITERALLY ANYONE else comes in as a replacement -- they will come off looking like they are FO Gods.

SkinsJock wrote: (1) did anyone see the success that the Oaklland A's had in the movie "Moneyball" DESPITE the actions of their manager Art Howe
Did anyone remember that, at that time (and in the movie) the media all thought that Art Howe did a great job - BS

(2) This franchise would NOT have done better by keeping Turner or Marty as HC

(1) It was a movie. I am very confident that the situations you saw in the movie were NOT true to life.

(2) Not sure about this -- ESPECIALLY WHEN MARTY FIRED CERRATO. I am pretty confident that if Marty (or another coach that prevented Vinny and Danny from participating in football decisions -- as Marty's contract dictated) were still in control of this team, we would not be in our current position.

The Red Sox did hire James and became a better franchise by getting away from following the old school way of player acquisitions

Moneyball is definetly just a movie .. Baseball is ALL about stats - Football is about running, passing, catching, tackling and blocking - NOT about stats

This franchise became a better franchise when Mike & Bruce took control and stopped running it like a fantasy football team and giving up on the draft like Snyder & Cerrato did

Marty did do well but he would not have been able to overcome the regime of Dumb & Dumber - NO WAY

SkinsJock wrote:Sorry Canes - your sig establishes your credibilty


anyone that cannot see how much better off we are, considering where we were - does not have a clue

anyone that has to look at the past to try and make out like these guys have not accomplished much here - does not have a clue

get with it and take an honest look at things

Mike has stated that things were worse than he imagined and he was not ready for the scope of getting things back in shape here



AND - you might want to try and not to be so biased & anti these guys

Where did I say in my post that we aren't better off? Please show me.

Of course Allen/Shannahan are better than Cerrato. However, that's not saying very much. Like I said, they've done some good things (this year's draft being an example) and some bad (McNabb, Rex/Beck, drafting Trent Williams). I'm just not very confident, based on their tracks records that they are going to get us to being a playoff contender on a consistent basis.

SkinsJock wrote:Marty did do well but he would not have been able to overcome the regime of Dumb & Dumber - NO WAY

Um, he fired Dumber and had a written contract that Dumb could not interfere with the team in any way.

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Marty did do well but he would not have been able to overcome the regime of Dumb & Dumber - NO WAY

Um, he fired Dumber and had a written contract that Dumb could not interfere with the team in any way.

goes to show you, doesn't it

I never thought of it like that - now, I'm glad we didn't keep a HC that was dumber than the dumbest owner we've had

I really, really think SkinsJock is the nephew of Shanahan or Allen.

I am not interested, nor do I care what Bruce or Mike did BEFORE they came to the Redskins - the past means SQUAT

Actually, ALL I really care about with these 2 is what they do to make this franchise better going forward - the rest is just BS and doesn't get us anywhere - This franchise was in much worse shape than either of them thought and they've done well getting to where we are now


These guys would love to have a QB AND .... they will get one
it's not that easy and in their opinion they were not prepared to just grab one PLUS the rest of the team needed players too

Campbell had to be replaced - McNabb was a disaster - spit happens - we move on
Beck & Grossman didn't work out - but they were not exactly surrounded with a lot either
IF you want to rehash this, go ahead, have a bunch of fun with it - Bruce & Mike don't have the time for you, they're trying to find someone that can do the job here better than Grossman & Beck did AND they need a young QB that they can prepare to play in the NFL

These guys WILL get both QBs - WHEN they can .... NOT before
AND .... certainly NOT at the expense of the rest of the offensive and defensive needs

I'm not a Mike & Bruce fan - I like the direction these 2 are taking this franchise

I'm looking forward to watching them continue to make this franchise better

WE ARE CLOSE - hopefully they stick with their plan


HTTR

Ohhhhhhhh !!!


The goooooood ooooooool'days!!!

If we could only bring back sidekick, yes-man and scapegoat Vinny Cerrato. Justice needs to be made. He has been maligned and unjustly condemned.

He REALLY knew how to make the offseason INTERESTING and EXCITING. He really knew the NFL and the key needs of this team during the -offseason-. We are suffering Mike and Bruce boring offseasons as a result of the terrible blunder that his separation from the team means.

You know we could come back to the past. Another decade of EXCITING and VERY SUCCESSFUL -offseasons- !!! Anybody?

Most fans are now used to be eager for the one key capture for the next over-the-hill and over-paid free agent seeking a comfortable retirement to save the franchise ... again.

Ahhhhh!!! The goooood old days. Nothing like the fresh smell of napalm in the morning.

We could let Snyder & Cerrato take over here for 10 months ....

then we'd have a shot at Barkley next year



Canes could change his sig to "play like a dog - bark for Barkley" instead of "Suck for Luck"

SkinsJock wrote:Canes could change his sig to "play like a dog - bark for Barkley" instead of "Suck for Luck"

SkinsJock wrote:Marty did do well but he would not have been able to overcome the regime of Dumb & Dumber - NO WAY

This does not make sense. He was, in fact, overcoming it. Danny got jealous and fired him. So he did not overcome it because he got fired. Left alone, are you not convinced he would have ultimately overcome it as you seem to think ShanAllen is?

For those short on memory Marty reduced our cap # from over $100M to less than $60M. He replaced 22 player in his only year. 13 of those new players were rookies. He fired Vinnie. He finished the year 8-3 with Tony Banks at QB.

Golly, after writing that I realize he DID overcome it and got fired for it.

Marty got fired ... end of story ... no glory here

who cares what he did, he got fired - the dumb owner showed the HC ...

"oh, but ... he didn't deserve it" ... GIVE ME A BREAK - if Marty was so great, why isn't he still in the game somewhere?

DUH


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