The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Frankly, Torain sucks right now. Go with someone else (hint, the rook from Nebraska...???)

Our D sucked in many areas but they kept D.Murray in check....NICE

DOWN
The running game

Even in a close game, the Redskins didn’t get anything done. Just 24 rushes for 60 yards. It continues to be a mystery why Ryan Torain gets any playing time – he had five rushes for four yards.


UP
Run defense

DeMarco Murray entered with three games of at least 130 yards in the last four weeks. But the Redskins bottled him up—25 rushes for 73 yards (2.9-yard average), and most impressively, no carry longer than eight yards.

There's more to the RB position than running the ball. Mike has stated before that Helu struggles in pass pro. With a leaky offensive line, do u really want an additional liability back there? No, U don't. If our line was better, I'm sure Helu would get more playing.

If you want Torain gone, create a thread pleading with whomever U want him replaced with to improve their skills.

5 rushes 4 yards is gonna WIN US PLENTY of games.........too funny.

He needs to man up.........

tribeofjudah wrote:He needs to man up.........

Right, cus "manning up" will stop the o-line from getting shoved 3 yards into the backfield on run plays. lmao

The only reason why I see them playing Torain over Helu must have something to do with blocking. Because Torain sure as hell hasn't shown anything impressive since the Rams game.

Torain's blocking is just the BEST STUFF in the world....(not)

calling CP, attention....calling CP

We have to be the most delusional fan base in the world.

Let me break it down for you Torain haters. First let me say that no one is going to gain anything significant with our horrid O-Line. Torain is better at blocking the blitz than Helu. Helu cannot pick up the blitz. Our patchwork O-Line is horrible so Grossman needs to get as much protection as possible. Therefore, Torain > Helu in our current offensive situation.

tribeofjudah wrote:calling CP, attention....calling CP

+100

It'll never happen but I would love it.

StorminMormon86 Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject:

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Let me break it down for you Torain haters. First let me say that no one is going to gain anything significant with our horrid O-Line. Torain is better at blocking the blitz than Helu. Helu cannot pick up the blitz. Our patchwork O-Line is horrible so Grossman needs to get as much protection as possible. Therefore, Torain > Helu in our current offensive situation.

Then why is Helu averaging 4.9 yards a carry ? You guys can say whatever you want about this blitz pick up and it carries some wait but Torain hasn't done much to warrant carries beyond the Rams game. This season is lost and we are currently evaluating younger players, see Gomes playing, Riley, Hankerson, etc. Helu should get a chance to carry the ball more than 10 a game (twice his career high).

StorminMormon86 wrote:Let me break it down for you Torain haters. First let me say that no one is going to gain anything significant with our horrid O-Line. Torain is better at blocking the blitz than Helu. Helu cannot pick up the blitz. Our patchwork O-Line is horrible so Grossman needs to get as much protection as possible. Therefore, Torain > Helu in our current offensive situation.

His blitz pick up cant be that terrible because is still being used as a 3rd down back .. And 3rd down is a significant blitzing down especially when teams are in 3rd and long which we constantly are...

This game we didn't get a first down until the 6th Skins possession. I should remind you that this was the first time Helu was in the game. Pass protection or not, the guy has to be in the game to learn. He's the only guy who has a 1st down conversion rate of every two touches to first downs. Thats effective. All the other RBs who came in have done nothing but run into the backs of the linemen.

^^^^^^ you are Right ON Franky

If Helu misses another blitz (like the Bills game), Bad Rex will almost certainly be unleashed. And Helu is getting more carries than Torain anyway, does it really matter who's listed as the "starter"?

frankcal20 wrote:This game we didn't get a first down until the 6th Skins possession. I should remind you that this was the first time Helu was in the game. Pass protection or not, the guy has to be in the game to learn. He's the only guy who has a 1st down conversion rate of every two touches to first downs. Thats effective. All the other RBs who came in have done nothing but run into the backs of the linemen.

Blocking is the weakest part of this team and he's not the ONLY person who needs to be evaluated. Do we potentially decrease the evaluation of others because his lack of pass blocking causes a 3&out?

oneman56 wrote:Then why is Helu averaging 4.9 yards a carry ? .

Helu has 51 carries in 11 games. That's less than 5 per game.
He doesn't have one single game more than 10 carries.

That 4.9 stat couldn't be more inflated.
Arizona he had 10 carries for 74 yards / 7.4
Miami was 6 carries for 41 yards. / 6.8
Big freaking deal.

Let's count the Helu Touchdowns.

ZERO

Torrain's game logs from last year rip a hole through the Helu myth.
Helu is a mere fraction.

It just goes to show that Mike is still lost in the personnel office.
If he thinks the Backs are his problem, get ready for another long year in 2012

This guy isn't taking the Skins anywhere but to the bank.

Interesting facts about Torain vs. Helu:

Ryan Torain and rookie Roy Helu. Torain is the starter in name only, with Helu getting the majority of the snaps since Hightower went down. Fans are clamoring for even more of Helu, pointing to his higher yards per carry (4.9 vs. Torain’s 3.4.) Looking at yards per carry alone can be misleading. Torain is actually getting more yards after contact (2.8 vs. 2.4) and it’s important to take into consideration that Helu may have the element of surprise in his favor. When Helu’s lined up in the backfield, Washington only runs the ball 20% of the time. When Torain takes the field that number jumps dramatically to 50%.

These facts don't change my opinon about Helu needing more playing time, but at the same time, this facts support my opinion that Torain's troubles this year are not his own. Clearly he saved our behinds in the Ram game when Hightower and Helu couldn't get it going.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... s-week-12/

Good stuff!

Red_One43 wrote:Interesting facts about Torain vs. Helu:

Ryan Torain and rookie Roy Helu. Torain is the starter in name only, with Helu getting the majority of the snaps since Hightower went down. Fans are clamoring for even more of Helu, pointing to his higher yards per carry (4.9 vs. Torain’s 3.4.) Looking at yards per carry alone can be misleading. Torain is actually getting more yards after contact (2.8 vs. 2.4) and it’s important to take into consideration that Helu may have the element of surprise in his favor. When Helu’s lined up in the backfield, Washington only runs the ball 20% of the time. When Torain takes the field that number jumps dramatically to 50%.

These facts don't change my opinon about Helu needing more playing time, but at the same time, this facts support my opinion that Torain's troubles this year are not his own. Clearly he saved our behinds in the Ram game when Hightower and Helu couldn't get it going.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... s-week-12/

With our poor blocking and poor run play selection we need the back that will get the most of every yard possible and thats TORAIN.

Helu isn't really a north/south runner thus far.

There you have it folks!
Nothing more to see here

Red_One43 wrote:Interesting facts about Torain vs. Helu:

Ryan Torain and rookie Roy Helu. Torain is the starter in name only, with Helu getting the majority of the snaps since Hightower went down. Fans are clamoring for even more of Helu, pointing to his higher yards per carry (4.9 vs. Torain’s 3.4.) Looking at yards per carry alone can be misleading. Torain is actually getting more yards after contact (2.8 vs. 2.4) and it’s important to take into consideration that Helu may have the element of surprise in his favor. When Helu’s lined up in the backfield, Washington only runs the ball 20% of the time. When Torain takes the field that number jumps dramatically to 50%.

These facts don't change my opinon about Helu needing more playing time, but at the same time, this facts support my opinion that Torain's troubles this year are not his own. Clearly he saved our behinds in the Ram game when Hightower and Helu couldn't get it going.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... s-week-12/

The problem with Torain is exactly that one Rams game. He averaged 7.1 a carry that game...but in EVERY OTHER GAME THIS YEAR, he's not been above 2.2 yards per carry. He had 19 carries for 135 yards against the Rams, but 36 carries for 57 yards (1.58 yards per carry) aggregate in the other 6 games he's played in. Blocking is bad, and he's not getting a lot of carries, but the exact same situations apply to Helu as well, and he's been more productive (solely running the ball, I'm talking about).

So I wouldn't use aggregate stats for Torain, as you have that 1 Rams game tremendously skewing his statistics. That's called an extreme outlier...

PulpExposure wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:Interesting facts about Torain vs. Helu:

Ryan Torain and rookie Roy Helu. Torain is the starter in name only, with Helu getting the majority of the snaps since Hightower went down. Fans are clamoring for even more of Helu, pointing to his higher yards per carry (4.9 vs. Torain’s 3.4.) Looking at yards per carry alone can be misleading. Torain is actually getting more yards after contact (2.8 vs. 2.4) and it’s important to take into consideration that Helu may have the element of surprise in his favor. When Helu’s lined up in the backfield, Washington only runs the ball 20% of the time. When Torain takes the field that number jumps dramatically to 50%.

These facts don't change my opinon about Helu needing more playing time, but at the same time, this facts support my opinion that Torain's troubles this year are not his own. Clearly he saved our behinds in the Ram game when Hightower and Helu couldn't get it going.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... s-week-12/

The problem with Torain is exactly that one Rams game. He averaged 7.1 a carry that game...but in EVERY OTHER GAME THIS YEAR, he's not been above 2.2 yards per carry. He had 19 carries for 135 yards against the Rams, but 36 carries for 57 yards (1.58 yards per carry) aggregate in the other 6 games he's played in. Blocking is bad, and he's not getting a lot of carries, but the exact same situations apply to Helu as well, and he's been more productive (solely running the ball, I'm talking about).

So I wouldn't use aggregate stats for Torain, as you have that 1 Rams game tremendously skewing his statistics. That's called an extreme outlier...

Using stats to aggregate for Torain? I think that we can agree that stats don't tell all, but they do tell you something. Yards after contact stats indicate that Torain is the stronger runner - we all know that and the YAC stat supports that. It also may indicate that Torain is getting hit in the backfield more often. The only way to change the may to an is or isn't is to analysize each carry by both backs. I don't have access to video of each back's carry.

The stat when Torain is in the game 50 percent of the plays are runs vs 20% for Helu may indicate that the defenders are stacking the line and not backing up on their heels when they see a potential hand off. They don't have to worry too much about play action passing. Torain is the action. Again, without video to analyze the backers on each of Torain's and Helu's carries, I can only say probably which I think the author of the article is saying.

The 50% stat proves that the exact situations don't apply to Helu - 50% runs vs 20% runs don't count as exact situation.

As I said, the stats don't change my mind that Helu should get more touches, because behind the same line, he is finding holes that Torain is not finding. The stat that says that we will pass more often in the game with Helu is a plus for him, but last year Torain was no slouch in the passing game either - check out his receiving stats from last year.

If you want to apply your "exact" same situation test, then explain why Helu couldn't run against the Rams and Torain could. It is not a "problem"for Torain that he gained 135 yards against the Rams and hasn't come clsoe to that since. Shanny said that he rides the "hot" back and in the Rams game it was Torain. In the subsequent games it has been Helu (or should I way "warm" back). What that spells is running back by committee and since Helu is getting the most touches, Helu seems to have the edge on who should be playing more. The stats don't lie here.

But here's a question that none of us know the answer. Let me set it up first. Against San Fran, Helu started. Helu has 8 carries for 40 yards in the first 8 minutes of the game. Not a bad start, eh? Here's the question -Why did Torain start the Miami and Dallas games? Here's an add on question, why did Helu get more touches than Torain even though he didn't start (we have a good guess why Helu is getting more touches)?

My answer to the 1st question is, the first 15 plays are scripted. Grossman says that the run is supposed to set up what the Skins do. Torain spells run for the Skins 50% of the time. Torain is not necessarily starting because he is the better back. He is starting because he fits what the Skins are trying to do with him - either as a decoy or to actually pound the ball and then change up with Helu.

Why isn't this working? I have heard criticism from players who understand zone blocking say that our players haven't gotten together as a unit - it is almost every play that one man didn't get his responsibility done. One play it is this guy the next it is that guy. Also coming from Kyle, he said that the backs (plural) are missing cuts. These issues point to inexperience and lack of playing time together.

One final note - Torain is the same back that he was last year - what's the different this year? Last year, the O line got better as the season progressed, this year it is riddled with injuries and has regressed. Why the knock on Torain?

Helu is the better all around back than Torian. There is no need to knock Torain who is a good back in his own right.

Red_One43 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:Interesting facts about Torain vs. Helu:

Ryan Torain and rookie Roy Helu. Torain is the starter in name only, with Helu getting the majority of the snaps since Hightower went down. Fans are clamoring for even more of Helu, pointing to his higher yards per carry (4.9 vs. Torain’s 3.4.) Looking at yards per carry alone can be misleading. Torain is actually getting more yards after contact (2.8 vs. 2.4) and it’s important to take into consideration that Helu may have the element of surprise in his favor. When Helu’s lined up in the backfield, Washington only runs the ball 20% of the time. When Torain takes the field that number jumps dramatically to 50%.

These facts don't change my opinon about Helu needing more playing time, but at the same time, this facts support my opinion that Torain's troubles this year are not his own. Clearly he saved our behinds in the Ram game when Hightower and Helu couldn't get it going.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... s-week-12/

The problem with Torain is exactly that one Rams game. He averaged 7.1 a carry that game...but in EVERY OTHER GAME THIS YEAR, he's not been above 2.2 yards per carry. He had 19 carries for 135 yards against the Rams, but 36 carries for 57 yards (1.58 yards per carry) aggregate in the other 6 games he's played in. Blocking is bad, and he's not getting a lot of carries, but the exact same situations apply to Helu as well, and he's been more productive (solely running the ball, I'm talking about).

So I wouldn't use aggregate stats for Torain, as you have that 1 Rams game tremendously skewing his statistics. That's called an extreme outlier...

Using stats to aggregate for Torain? I think that we can agree that stats don't tell all, but they do tell you something. Yards after contact stats indicate that Torain is the stronger runner - we all know that and the YAC stat supports that. It also may indicate that Torain is getting hit in the backfield more often. The only way to change the may to an is or isn't is to analysize each carry by both backs. I don't have access to video of each back's carry.

Ok you typed a whole lot to say something very common sense. Stats don't tell the whole story. Yes, agreed. No wall of text needed.

But, averaging 1.58 yards per carry for 7 of 8 games, any way you cut it, is pathetic.