The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

In the last ten years, the Redskins have attempted to draft a franchise quarterback. It's my opinion, that we selected players who were talented enough but in both cases:

-There was not consistent coaching.
-There existed a poor clubhouse culture.
-There was no support system in place.

I feel that any quarterback has natural potential and that those three external factors can maximize that potential. For instance, Tom Brady had a lot of hidden potential, but through those external factors (and a crushing hit on Drew Bledsoe) is was maximized. JaMarcus Russell had loads of potential, but none of it was uncovered, in part because none of those factors existed. Do individual players have to be accountable for putting the work in that's required to be successful, absolutely, but no amount of work can dig them out of a terrible situation. This is proven time and time again throughout the history of professional football, professional sports in general and life in general.

First up...

QB Patrick Ramsey, 2003 Draft, 32nd overall, Tulane

If Ramsey had played on a better team, he would be a much bigger name. The problem with Tulane was not with their offense but with the school record of points that the defense gave up. Ramsey is a big (6-2, 234) drop back passer with a strong and accurate arm. He is not very mobile but will occasionally get outside the pocket. He has a very quick release, which helps him avoid sacks. Ramsey is a student of the game and will do what it takes to become a good quarterback. He is very coachable and gains the respect of his teammates, especially when he stands in and faces the pass rush head on. He can make almost every throw but needs to work on his touch. Ramsey has been a three-year starter, replacing Tampa Bay's Shaun King, but did not have nearly the level of talent around him that King had. Ramsey went to the Senior Bowl and had an outstanding week. Many now consider him the third best quarterback prospect in the draft.

Seems to ring true enough. No one doubted his arm. He had a rocket and could throw the deep stuff. One knock on him was how he always threw the ball hard and lacked tough. No one could doubt his physical skills, but did he receive the coaching needed to help him make the most out of them?

Steve Spurrier drafted him. He started a little bit in his first season, got injured in his second. He got 16 games as a starter under Spurrier before the Ol' Ball Coach quit. At no time during Spurrier's tenure did he have anything resembling quality coaching, a positive clubhouse culture or a support system. He had few weapons on offense and was consistently among the most sacked guys in the league.

When Gibbs took over, instead of further cultivating Ramsey's talent he immediately got Mark Brunell. #8 was inconsistent for all of 2004 and Ramsey got the job back by default. In 2005 he was named the started but Brunell always had the inside track. After one game, and an injury Ramsey was benched and never able to get the job back. IMO he was never given a chance to make the most of his abilities in Washington.

QB Jason Campbell, 2005 Draft, 25th overall, Auburn

Campbell has always had excellent size, good athletic ability and above average arm strength, but his poor decision making skills, lack of poise in the pocket, indecisiveness and erratic arm haunted him early in his collegiate career. Throughout his first three seasons as a starter, Campbell consistently held onto the ball too long, threw too many passes up for grabs when he ran out of time, missed open receivers downfield and overthrew too many of the receivers that he did find open. However, No player improved his draft value more in 2004 than Campbell. After struggling through three extremely inconsistent and unfulfilling seasons, Campbell thrived as a senior in what was his fourth offensive scheme in four years. New offensive coordinator Al Borges found the right fit for Campbell, as his West Coast scheme simplified things and gave Campbell a lot more definitive reads to make. As his confidence improved, so too did his production. Most impressive was Campbell's improvement in regards to his decision-making skills, as he threw 13 more touchdowns (19) than interceptions (6) in 2004. Campbell has the physical tools of a first round pick but there are still questions about his downfield accuracy and ability to see the entire field. That's why we grade Campbell out as a solid second round prospect.

More proof that Gibbs wanted nothing to do with Ramsey, Jason Campbell was selected. Keep in mind, he was hand picked by Gibbs and there was lots of buzz leading up to the draft that Campbell was going to be a Redskin. He came to Washington to sit behind the QB mess in 2005. He started to take over in 2007. The scheme was changed twice under Gibbs, then Gibbs quit a second time. Jim Zorn took over and installed a brand new offense. It fit Campbell's strengths a little better because be became a "decent" QB, but again, he never had consistent coaching, a good locker room culture or a supporting cast. His talent has never been cultivated. When Shanahan took over he wanted his own guy, and brought in McNabb (huge mistake).

Is there someone who could argue that Campbell got every opportunity to succeed in Washington? Is it on him that our lines were always so bad? Or that the weapons on offense were lacking? I think if Campbell had gone to Green Bay instead he'd be a perennial All-Star...

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So I ask you, answer the poll question. Did we just pick the wrong guys who just couldn't play football? Or did the Redskins just lack the support system needed to create a successful quarterback.

Patrick Ramsey was destroyed by Spurrier. He had a terminal case of happy feet, as a result, and Gibbs was not able to correct it. This is further borne out by the fact that Ramsey had opportunities in several organizations after being cut, but was never able to make inroads.

Jason Campbell has been thoroughly disected. He had tons of talent... but not a football brain. He was not capable of making reads at NFL speed, and he never developed pocket awareness... He had no heart... and no capacity to will a team to move the ball... that leadership "it" factor that results in comebacks. Nice guy... not a starter. Shame, too, because he's a heck of a physical talent.

You can think Campbell would be a "perennnial All-Star" in GB all you want... I think you'd still be wrong. Campbell never was, and never will be, a top tier NFL quarterback. I was on the Campbell train for most of his time... but watching him consistently underthrow wide open receivers, hold the ball too long in the pocket, take forever to read his receivers only to miss the wide open guy 15yards downfield and check down to the RB standing 3 feet off the LOS, and fail to manage the 4th quarter in winnable games convinced me he wasn't happening. You can only make the same mistake so many times before it becomes clear... you aren't learning from your mistakes.

Countertrey wrote:Patrick Ramsey was destroyed by Spurrier. He had a terminal case of happy feet, as a result, and Gibbs was not able to correct it. This is further borne out by the fact that Ramsey had opportunities in several organizations after being cut, but was never able to make inroads.

Jason Campbell has been thoroughly disected. He had tons of talent... but not a football brain. He was not capable of making reads at NFL speed, and he never developed pocket awareness... He had no heart... and no capacity to will a team to move the ball... that leadership "it" factor that results in comebacks. Nice guy... not a starter. Shame, too, because he's a heck of a physical talent.

You can think Campbell would be a "perennnial All-Star" in GB all you want... I think you'd still be wrong. Campbell never was, and never will be, a top tier NFL quarterback. I was on the Campbell train for most of his time... but watching him consistently underthrow wide open receivers, hold the ball too long in the pocket, take forever to read his receivers only to miss the wide open guy 15yards downfield and check down to the RB standing 3 feet off the LOS, and fail to manage the 4th quarter in winnable games convinced me he wasn't happening.
You can only make the same mistake so many times before it becomes clear... you aren't learning from your mistakes.

THANKFULLY - most fans here feel the same way and I'd be very surprised if the guys in charge right now don't also feel this way

we are going to get a good QB in here - it almost certainly WILL NOT be Luck

there was a stretch of 3-4 games in 2007 under Saunders (in which they finally let him go a lot out of the shotgun and more of a spread offensive set) where most people seemed to decide Campbell sucked while i had the opposite reaction-- what people seemed to isolate was that he threw a costly pick at the end or simply didn't get it done. what they seemed to forget was that he had to press because his teammates had created mess after mess that he kept goin' out and moving the team up and down the field to clean up-- for example:

* other members of the offense (particularly Portis, if i recall) taking turns fumbling inside our own 20 against the Bucs
* our defense deciding that nobody should cover Terrell Owens against the Cowboys, and let him get 4 TDs, most of them long bombs on which he was barely covered at all

etc

both of those games ended with him tossing a pick in opposition territory after marching the team down the field to tie it up or win or whatever it was. and he rightfully deserves to be judged for that. but he should also have been judged on the positive aspects of what he did in those games leading drive after drive down the field to clean up after his teammates. that seems to have been completely ignored. i actually thought he played a lot better then than he did under Zorn despite his stats looking better under Zorn overall.

he seems to have established that he's clearly not a top-tier QB but he's at the very least in the league of the Sanchezes and Flaccos of the world and one might even imagine him being a slight upgrade over those players if he were to go to either team.

Both Ramsey and Campbell have had opportunites to "prove" themselves since leaving the Redskins. Ramsey was not able to secure a starting job anywhere afterwards. He became a career back-up. I do no think there is any doubt that Ramsey got screwed by Spurrer and Gibbs. Spurrer's Fun n Gun offense didn't work in the NFL. It did not make any allowance for a need for an o-line. It is a miracle that Ramsey was not the first NFL quarterback to be killed on the job. Campbell has been effective in Oakland this year until he got injured. He has not been the franchise quarterback that was envisioned but he hs been better than anyone else there. To bad he got hurt. Now he will probably be the highest rated quarterback in the free agent market next year.

The Redskins have not really had a better than average quarterback since Theisman (<- better than average but not elite) and before that the Jurgenson/Kilmer years. We have not had an image of a franchise quarterback since Baugh. Franchise quarterbacks are rare. Right now there is only Brady, Brees and Peyton Manning (probably done). Below them are the Rivers, Mannings (Eli),Sanchez's, Flacco's, Ryan's. Then come the Campbells, Fitzpatricks and all of the rest. Maybe one of the second or third tier guys can become a franchise quarterback but they are not right now. Maybe Ponder, Nelson or Dalton can become one of the top tier guys. Only they can make that happen.

In our case, anyone from the second tier up would be an impriovement over what we have or have had since Theisman.